I get you all hate Fiora but asking to remove or nerf certain parts of her kit is just ignorant.

Joxcab··10 votes·760 views

#No, I'm not saying she needs or doesn't need nerfs. That's not the point of this thread.

  1. Her percent max health true damage.

She is specifically balanced around this.

The reason she doesn't have non-true percent health damage is because then she'd be next to useless in lategame when a tank can go upwards to 200 armor.

The reason she doesn't have flat true damage is because that would make her nothing but an assassin who vaporizes squishies but is useless against tankier champions.

The reason she doesn't have percent missing health is also for the same reason, as well as the fact she'd be useless at actually dueling because the point of dueling isn't to kill low health targets.

The reason she doesn't have percent current is because she would get progressively weaker as a duel goes on which defeats the whole point. She's a duelist who needs to have an extended duel, not a 1-second obliteration like an assassin.

In return, she has lower effective flat damage amounts than an assassin would (or a typical attack speed carry who can crit and hail down autoattacks repeatedly). She also has lower pure percent health ratios than someone who is exclusively theoretically a tankbuster would. She is in the middle and has less of both in return for her percent max health true.

Now you might say, but Joxcab, you can't build against or counter that damage?! Well, that statement is around half correct. You can't build against it. You're not SUPPOSED to be able to build against it. That's the point.

Unlike just about every single other attack speed carry in the game who relies on just running up and blitzing you to death with autoattacks, for her to get her percent max health true damage off, she needs to specifically hit the Vitals. This means it's clearly obvious where she has to go which means her plan is literally laid out for you, the enemy team, already.

The only exception is her ultimate where it makes all 4 sides, but after denying the first 1-2, it goes to the exact same situation. You are supposed to outplay her, not the damage. As opposed to other attack speed carries where you either just CC or build enough armor or die, but otherwise can't really do anything else to avoid the damage. She inherently has more counterplay in her dueling itself.

  1. Her Riposte - and the various intricacies of it.

Every. Single. Melee. Autoattack reliant champion. In the game. Has a mitigation safety tool against teams. They NEED to have it because without it they'd be useless trash. No, a dash does not count. Jax has Counterstrike. Tryndamere has his ultimate immortality. Kayle has her ultimate damage invulnerability. Olaf has his ultimate CC immunity. Master Yi has his Q untargetability. Xin Zhao has his ultimate knockback. Yasuo has his windwall and passive shield which can be quite large lategame.

Fiora's lasts 0.75 seconds and locks her in place for the duration, the slow/stun afterwards is a skillshot that you can dodge, especially if you didn't lock yourself in place with some ability. The parry CC affects the first target hit only. You can stand behind your tank and hit Fiora and your tank will be hit with the slow or stun instead.

Hers is not an ultimate, yet has a longer cooldown than just about every other melee autoattacker's mitigation methods in the game. That's the point. You either bait or force it out, because there's more than one thing she will HAVE to parry regardless. Then you just use the more important abilities and kill her. If she doesn't parry the first one, then you just hit her or injure her or kill her outright there instead.

"B-B-But why can it block Summoners?" Because for her to do that, she either has to predict it altogether which is extremely unlikely, or you have to be an ignorant twat and use it when she's already parrying. In addition, it still falls under damage + debuff (Ignite's true damage tick + Grievous Wounds + true sight) or crowd control + debuff (Exhaust's movement slow + damage dealt reduction). That's part of the things Riposte blocks.

It's like asking, "Why can Yasuo's windwall block ultimates?" See, no one cares. It DOESN'T MATTER if it's an ultimate. If his windwall blocked it, it's because it was a PROJECTILE. You can't just make an exception and say "It blocks some projectiles but not others" regardless no matter what the specific extenuations are. Same thing here. You can't just make it so it blocks some damage/debuffs/crowd control but not others. That's absurd. Literally no ability in the game has an exception like that.

“B-B-But why the attack speed slow?” Because without it she has literally not even the slightest CHANCE to beat almost any attack speed carry in the lategame. They can just not use CC in the case of people like Xin or Yasuo and blitz her to death with autoattacks instead which means there's nothing to reflect CC. She doesn't have the attack speed to keep up and they can easily kill her long before she gets her full ultimate off. The attack speed slow is for the CHANCE of even hoping to beat them.

  1. Her ultimate - the heal, the old ultimate versus the new.

The reason her new ultimate has a heal and the reason Riot scrapped the old one and will never foreseeably go back to it are the exact same reason.

Her old ultimate was Master Yi's Q on steroids. But unless she was fed enough to delete almost everyone instantly and clean up the mess with E resets, it was suicide and useless for her to ever come to a teamfight.

So what did old Fiora do? She splitpushed and splitpushed and splitpushed and did nothing else at all 24/7 after laning phase until she had a massive amount of gold. Then she came to the teamfight, pressed R, murdered almost everyone while being untargetable, then cleaned up stragglers with E. I'm sure that's totally what Riot wanted. Just kidding.

So how to make her actually want to come to a teamfight and have to work for something instead of having next to no counterplay because of the untargetability AoE obliteration?

Her new ultimate. If she successfully achieves her goal, she can net her entire team a potentially absolutely teamfight changing heal. If she doesn't, she fails. However, this gives her an incentive to actually join the teamfight because of that very reason. Now how does she get the heal?

She must dash around to all 4 sides of a target and hit them with an autoattack or her W (which wouldn't be used for Vital because she'd need it for the block anyways). Now remember, she's still up against an entire 5-man team most of the time even if she has her own for support. And you have 3 chances to guess whether the enemy team is just going to let her walk up dandy happy-go-lucky to hit more than the front and one side, because then she has to go either completely into the enemy team to hit the backside or a complete 180 to hit the other side.

Now, about her heal. Getting only 1-2 Vitals is a garbage-tier heal. It would barely make a difference in the teamfight and staying in it if you were going to lose the teamfight without it would just be suicide. This is also the incentive so she can't just ult a practically dead target for a massive heal.

Popping 3 to 4 is a hell of a lot more difficult, but also a lot more rewarding. That is the point of Fiora's new ultimate. Yes you can complain the AoE heal doesn't make sense on a 1v1 duelist. Guess what? That doesn't matter. Because if she didn't have some sort of team utility, she'd go back to doing nothing but endlessly splitpushing 24/7 again. No one wants that, nor is that healthy.

#TL;DR - Just because you hate a champion doesn't mean you should ask to remove core parts of their kit without understanding why they HAVE to be in there in the first place.

28 Comments

Penns7 votes

You can remove her attack speed slow tho

Joxcab1 votes

You literally cannot for reasons I explicitly stated.

Penns6 votes

Because she needs it to beat late game carries?

  1. I dont think she even needs it since she pretty much has the best item scaling in the game regardless.
  2. She shits on assassins, obviously shits on tanks, shits on adcs for most of the game, shits on mages as long as she can block an important spell,.. why not have these few melee attack speed carries, which none of them are even meta, as her ""weakness""?
Joxcab1 votes

Other lategame carries also have massive lifesteal and a lot faster attack speed meaning they can effectively heal a lot faster than she can. They're not going to give her the time to get her full ultimate off.

She's not SUPPOSED to be weak to any one enemy. That's the whole fucking point. She is supposed to be equal and win if she outduels them, which she is. That's the point of having a team.

Penns3 votes

Fiora doesnt even need to build attack speed because she effectively has 3 auto attack resets and a 50% attack speed boost for 2 auto attacks. She uses Q-auto-E-Hydra-crit from E and its like she is bombarding you with max attack speed while building full AD.

But I dont play top lane and thats just one way to nerf her, Im not saying its the best one.

Joxcab1 votes

So then the attack speed slow could be nerfed. Removing it altogether is absurd.

Nerfing things like the numbers would be fine. Complete removal is not. Sorry if you misunderstood.

Glory974 votes

{quoted}

She's not SUPPOSED to be weak to any one enemy.

And a champion is SUPPOSED to have counterplay And Rengar is SUPPOSED to be an assassin. And Azir is SUPPOSED to be a playable champion This argument of "is supposed to be" is dumb, when talking about balancing a computer game. Fiora is too strong right now (at least in competitive) and needs nerfs. And even without the attackspeed debuff fiora can still do her job, but has more counterplay to go against. I prefer removing the attackspeed debuff, than just flat out nerfing her damage (and that's because she is SUPPOSED to do a lot of damage)

Joxcab1 votes

She does. Irrelevant. His rework is just a failure. Irrelevant. Azir got nerfed to garbage for being overly broken on scales you couldn't even imagine.

She isn't supposed to be weak in a 1v1. That doesn't mean she can't lose it if they play better.

It's the exact same case for any other 1v1 fighter or someone good at 1v1s. They're not weak at 1v1s. That's the point. They can still be beat in a 1v1, it's just a lot harder because that's their forte.

In return, literally almost every single 1v1 fighter is weak in a teamfight setting.

And so by doing that, she automatically loses to statcheck in end game. That defeats the whole point. No.

Glory971 votes

Yes, she is not strong for teamfighting. But if a team does a coordinated splitpush, there is not much the other team can do. 4 man defending a tower and just waveclear, and fiora pushing down a sidelane. There is no teamfigth needed to win´the game. Fiora's team holds the initiative the whole time. They completely control the whole map. And the enemy team can't even send their midlaner to waveclear, because fiora will effortlessly dive him, and lifesteal tank the turret at the same time. Of course there are weaknesses, but a good team with teamplay can just avoid her weakness. (And this is also the same reason why azir got trashed, because he had no weakness if the azir-player did not make mistakes)

Joxcab1 votes

And that's any different from someone like Tryndamere/Jax/Master Yi/etcetera splitpushing how...?

All of those kinds of champions can melt towers, clear waves quickly, move quickly to and from sidelines and escape, and force more than one person to come after them. And just about every single one of those champions can easily murder any solo midlaner trying to stop them splitpushing.

Glory971 votes

Then compare fioras pick/ban ratio with tryndamere/jax/master yi in competitive gameplay and you can see the difference.

Joxcab1 votes

What does that have to do with anything?

Fiora is newer and updated relatively to keep up with the current meta.

Those other ones are extremely old and outdated and from past metas.

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

No you can't. It's important to her kit. Stop acting like it's some crazy hit box that's guaranteed to land. It's a narrow skill shot that fires after a delay. Side step, it's as wide as her hit box.

SexyBabyJesusZ2 votes

number 1 is actually a problem that makes her unbalanced, not being able to build against a champion like fiora doesn't even make sense, while a champion like vayne doing the true damage is ok because shes squishy as fuck

Joxcab1 votes

You realize Fiora goes pretty much full AD glass cannon + lifesteal right? Building tank items works but it DRASTICALLY reduces her damage.

You could argue just the opposite as well. Stealth means you literally can't even see where to aim, she's invisible and can't be seen by red wards, and the range means she can stay at a safe distance.

That's besides the point though.

She is specifically balanced around it for the reasons I said.

#You also literally cannot give her any other damage type for each of the reasons I stated above in the main post.

Essychu2 votes

"the stun locks her in place"

AS IF SHES VULNERABLE DURING THAT TIME.

takes 0 damage while blocking every single attack in the game.

Joxcab1 votes

And… she doesn't move anywhere.

So you wait while she's just standing there like a statue and then kill her because you know where she is and thus where to hit/aim when it's over.

If she cancels it early, that's less time she has to parry anything and since it's in the full cooldown again, then you can easily punish her.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

As I abuse her for freelo it becomes evident thaf she needs dverything in her kit fo function. I don't think anything more than number nerfs would be ok.

Joxcab1 votes

Exactly. Stuff like increasing the cooldown on Vitals appearing if she didn't proc it (but keep the same as now if she did) would work by reducing how oppressive her earlygame feels without harming her kit inherently too much.

Another could be something like changing the cooldown refund percentage on Q to be 3-4 different numbers. One for if she hits a valid target at all, another for if she hits an enemy champion at all, a third for if she hits a Vital, and a potential fourth if she kills some champion with her Q (regardless if it hits a Vital). The first number would be lower than the current 60% or whatever it is, maybe like 40%. The second would be maybe 50%, third being 60%, and fourth could be either equal to the third or a complete reset depending.

That's what I'm trying to convey.

RealČernochHours1 votes

How about reducing the passive range a little bit? Wouldn't hurt her duel power by any means but would give her enemies an easier time getting favourable vitals without risking too much cs. She would benefit from it too because she could do the same. Or let the slow/ats slow (maybe even just one of them) amount scale with rank but keep stun duration unchanged?

Joxcab1 votes

That would work too.

Oh right, almost forgot. In addition, reducing the sensitivity radius would work, because honestly, the hitbox is ridiculously large at the moment.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

How about reducing the passive range a little bit? Wouldn't hurt her duel power by any means but would give her enemies an easier time getting favourable vitals without risking too much cs. She would benefit from it too because she could do the same. Or let the slow/ats slow (maybe even just one of them) amount scale with rank but keep stun duration unchanged?

And the other hand, a good fiora could abuse this to make sure the passive is always in a nice direction in lane.

sit kid2 votes

YES YES YES

Someone who gets it!

l Dárius l2 votes

except you cant deny the fact that the champion designed thematically and gameplay wise to be an amazing duelest does not need an attack speed slow. especially when she goes top everygame and reks tanks and the like by gutting there attack speed as she also parries an important ability for the enemy laner to hit that also coincidentally probably has to high a cooldown to miss.

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

A riposte is ancounter strike meant to cripple your opponent. So yes a skilled duelist who fences would have it. It makes total sense. to deny it doesn't make any.

Joxcab1 votes

So how else do you propose she duels a lategame attack speed carry who just autoattacks her to death long before she can do even close to the same damage, let alone get a decent ultimate off against them?

parrot66321 votes

i'm fine with just about everything in her kit besides the attack speed slow though.

i'm fine with not completely removing it but i want it to be nerfed

specifically i would like it if the duration wasn't an entire 3 seconds where you feel completely crippled

Joxcab1 votes

Changing it to decaying, a shorter duration, or a weaker slow could all be options to look at.

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