Since we're on the topic of nerfing Rylai's slow from being spammed too much on abilities

BeatzBoyFTW·Nov 26, 2016·34 votes·6,074 views

You're forgetting one more item which slows on repeated AA spams.

cough cough

62 Comments

BeatzBoyFTWNov 26, 20163 votes

You didn't forget it, didn't you Rito

RiotMeddlerNov 26, 201630 votes

No, we haven't forgotten Frozen Mallet. Its use is fairly niche, and the champions who do apply it do so only at short to medium ranges. It's not very comparable with Rylai's situation as a result.

SpideraxeNov 26, 20161 votes

What are yours thoughts on FM compared to IBG

RiotMeddlerNov 26, 201610 votes

I generally think windowed effects generate better gameplay and I think that's true in this case - we've been able to keep IBG a more regularly purchased item than FM because, I'd argue, it's a healthier design. Having said that I do wonder if it might still be too effective when used without other armor items.

The Yetii RiderNov 26, 20163 votes

Couldn't you just remove the Sheen/Spellblade from it completely?

Keep the trigger to proc when you use a spell, but have it only slow and deal no additional damage instead. After all, that's the problem with the item, its bonus damage combined with the permaslow.

Something like item 3024 +

65 armor 500 mana 20% CDR

Frozen Wasteland - Whenever you use an ability, your next auto attack within 3 seconds creates a slowing field that grows with your armor and magic resistance. 5 second cooldown (to help keep the window).

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 26, 20169 votes

I think its nice to have a sheen item for tanks personally.

MiraweaveNov 27, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kg6EHbQX,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-11-26T22:13:29.808+0000)

I think its nice to have a sheen item for tanks personally.

But it's demonstrated itself repeatedly to be a problem because of the damage.

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 27, 20161 votes

seems like a solvable one, with ekko. the damage is nice for tanks like poppy. id kinda hate to lose that.

WoonStruckNov 27, 20161 votes

So has every item ever.

Most cases where it does 'too much damage' its because people are going completely glass cannon, which used to be laughed at in seasons 1 and 2.

People just build poorly nowadays, tbh.

Also, most cases where IBG is a problem, its the champion, not the item. After IBG was nerfed, all of the core users needed follow-up nerfs still.

PartholonianNov 27, 20161 votes

...on Ezreal. Give IBG's damage armor or HP scaling so that it's not that effective as the only defensive item in an otherwise offense-focused build and its damage won't be a problem anymore.

InTheoryNov 27, 20161 votes

[deleted]

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 27, 20163 votes

I think its pretty core on more than just ezreal.

I kinda feel like if you really nerfed it for ez specifically to the point where he doesn't want it anymore, you might need to look at ez himself and see what kind of niche you want for him. because currently that slow is such a big part of why you pick him

Spice POWAHNov 27, 20163 votes

asks to remove spellblade

Whenever you use an ability, your next auto attack

That's literally spellblade, except better because then they can just get an actual spellblade item without hurting their build.

The Yetii RiderNov 27, 20165 votes

Difference is that it doesn't deal any damage.

And yes you could combine it with a Spellblade item, but the only one a tank would build is Trinity Force. So you have to buy Iceborn. Then Sheen. Then you have both Spellblade and Iceborn slow with a small damage boost until you finish Tri Force 2.5k later.

Cutting the damage out is a signifcant nerf.

ModAcademy KaynNov 26, 20162 votes

I had a Karma build one against me as Wukong, so she got the mana to spam her spells, the CDR to spam her spells, armor to make her harder to kill, especially with her shield, and the slow effect to make sure i stayed close enough to get rooted.

You've probably been asked this a million times, but why is IBG still allowed on ranged characters? Or, if i wanted to make the question more generalized, why do you think it's wrong to apply the "Melee Only" Tag to items?

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 26, 20162 votes

"Having said that I do wonder if it might still be too effective when used without other armor items."

isn't that literally just ezreal you're talking about? I can't think of anyone else who builds that item and isn't a tank building tank items

The Yetii RiderNov 26, 20162 votes

And? What if it is just Ezreal? We've changed items due to synergy with Ezreal before. Remember...the blue jungle item before Runic Echoes? Because I don't even recall its name off the top of my head.

We should definitely change the item so Ezreal can't abuse it.

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 26, 20162 votes

its not like he's broken strong. is there a need to change anything because of ezreal right now?

that said, my personal opinion is that he should scale a little better with crit and essence reaver should be a sheen item that scales in effectiveness with crit. in this way, the item would appeal more to corki and ezreal and i'm pretty sure would still be strong on jhin Lucian etc

The Yetii RiderNov 27, 20162 votes

It's not about strength. AD Carries aren't supposed to build defensive items, and certainly not as early as Ezreal does. He's already balanced around being slippery, but add in all that extra armor (and the 20% CDR rush) and you have a very difficult to kill champion.

Ezreal isn't properly punished for being caught out of position with his IBG rush. Even if someone outplays him he likely has a combination of enough resistance to survive, enough slow to kite, and enough CDR to get his Arcane Shift back before he is in danger of dying for it. That's not good for the game, it doesn't matter how strong Ezreal actually is.

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 27, 20162 votes

it doesn't seem that bad for it to me. ez might be more safe than the average adc but its not like hes warping the game out of whack

Votable JesterNov 27, 20161 votes

Ezreal's niche is in his ability to get out of sticky situations. Aren't people constantly complaining about adcs not building any resists and then complaining about getting blown up?

Ezreal is the only adc who currently builds some defense, and you want to get rid of that?

The Yetii RiderNov 27, 20161 votes

When the only reason he builds defense is to improve his offense, yes. I want to get rid of that.

Votable JesterNov 28, 20161 votes

It isn't just to improve his offense though, otherwise he'd always be building Triforce over Iceborn. It is still a defensive item for him, just with more emphasis on the slow than the armor.

I'm not saying he doesn't buy it as an offensive item, but it is still a valuable defensive buy for him as well.

WoonStruckNov 27, 20161 votes

If its just Ezreal, then Ezreal should be changed, not IBG.

Ezreal has proven to be an issue far, far more often than any item in League.

The Yetii RiderNov 27, 20161 votes

Ezreal was only buffed with the marksmen update. If they weren't going to change his interactions with Spellblade then, they won't do it now.

But Meddler is the one saying that IBG is a problem on those who don't build armor. And Meddler is the one who is in charge of changing items in the game, not me. His comment is in the same thread, if you want to actually argue a case why are talking to me and not him?

WoonStruckNov 28, 20161 votes

He's also:

A) Never been truly weak

B) Been an extremely blatant issue at least once a season.

AMYS GRAVENov 27, 20162 votes

Could you make the slow intensity scale with armor instead of the size of the slow area? That way non tanks wont get much use out of it because they don't get armor but tanks can still use the tank item.

Champion SkinNov 27, 20161 votes

While that might be true... some champions really want the Sheen + slow + CDR from IBG and being forced into building more armor to make it effective might be fine against AD heavy compositions however if the enemy composition is more balanced or AP heavy being forced into building armor to make IBG effective isn't great.... or do you except the champions who rely on IBG slow to build Frozen Mallet instead against more AP heavy compositions?

Sèx Craved EveNov 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I generally think windowed effects generate better gameplay and I think that's true in this case - we've been able to keep IBG a more regularly purchased item than FM because, I'd argue, it's a healthier design. Having said that I do wonder if it might still be too effective when used without other armor items.

It IS a crap load of HP.

Critmaster GarenNov 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I generally think windowed effects generate better gameplay

item 3123 tho

i mean you have to agree, that this item isnt healthy either right now. grievous wounds would probably be better off as a windowed effect, instead of applying to any form of physical damage.

especially since most of the physical damage dealers who pick it up (marksmen) deal sustained damage and can reapply the debuff over extended periods of time.

by the looks of it, i dont think youve figured out the relationship between health sustain mechanics and grievous wounds yet. its always like either of those two is overtuned.

its like ignite is the only healthy application of grievous wounds in the game, since it comes with a considerable tradeoff.

SilverjustNov 27, 20162 votes

What if item 3022 would work more like a nautilus-passive? It slows for a few seconds, and then it is on cooldown on the target?

BeatzBoyFTWNov 26, 20165 votes

Wow, wasn't expecting a Rioter response on a thread which didn't get much attention in Boards.

But on the same topic, I've seen this item being a nuisance on "already-mobile" champions like Yasuo, which brings up the concern on whether either this item or Yasuo needs some adjusting. What do you think?

RiotMeddlerNov 26, 201622 votes

I often browse by 'New', not just 'Hot', hence responses to some smaller threads :).

I think we'd see a lot of people describing Yasuo as a nuisance with or with Frozen Mallet being in the game. Would consider the two on their separate merits as a result.

RocketRelmNov 26, 201610 votes

See, I want to make a joke about the typo, but I also don't want to sound like a jerk.

l Helios lNov 27, 20161 votes

Got you covered. :)

RiotMeddlerNov 28, 20165 votes

Whoops, yeah, not what I meant to type. I'll let it stand though, it's amusing at least.

redfeenixNov 29, 20161 votes

Hey friend, are you in charge of something like this:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Obe2iXIN-opinion-ability-tooltips-should-show-total-damage-1-number-rather-than-a-math-equation

If not, would you refer me to a UI guy? Cheers thanks.

This game's fun but some interfaces looks like it was created 10 years ago....

Pale PirateNov 27, 20161 votes

That's nice, even not that upvoted threads can catch your attention.

ItsOrvalNov 26, 20162 votes

Just make Frozen Mallet work only for melee then.

Sire HippingtonNov 26, 20163 votes

As a toplane main, i have to say that the item still is not healthy. It turns a loosing lane into one that you have to abbandon, as 1 AA from your opponent more or less means you die. At the same time, i use the item alot on any AA-reliant fighter, as it feels like the only option to deal with the peel/kiteing from ranged champions, especially in teamfights. It's a shame that the one item that gives melees atleast some option other than burst to deal with ranged is the same item that can make melee vs melee matchups absurdly snowbally.

It's stats/stat-profile right now is once again so weak that its not a generally strong item, but as soon as your goldadvantage makes up for the lowish stat-efficiency, it still is as broken as ever. And some champs still have powerfull enough 1v1 kits to not even need snowballing, and they still use it as core item( Yasuo Gnar )

Ulquiorra995Nov 26, 20162 votes

Why didn't you consider reverting Rylai's stats to pre-rework state then? The slow remaining at 20% for all spells is fine, but 500 HP and less AP would put it at a similiar state to FM; an item you buy for a hefty chunk of HP and slow, but sacrifice some damage to do so.

Current Rylai seems very weird to me; very low stats just scream "niche item", but a heavily nerfed slow means it will have hard time fulfilling that niche - for comparison, FM on ADCs still provides an undodgeable 35% permaslow. Rylai needed nerfs, sure - either in stats or the passive. But heavily hitting both really is overkill.

PowerOfDrainAgeDec 1, 20161 votes

Personally I would rly like to have Rylai's cost to be around 3k (2.9-3.1k) and have 500 HP and 80 AP. Champions like mordeakaiser rly need it 'cause of rly low base movement speed (so slow is important) and the just 73 HP per level is damn too low and I mean TOO low if you count the fact that Darius has 100HP per level but still can build much more items that give HP and amor but still outdamaging morde. Honnestly I believe mordekaiser needs buff to his HP regeneration .. It's sitting at 4 and he needs to have some sustain so an increase to nearly 8 is required imo.

Kosm1KNov 27, 20161 votes

Personally I think that the only reason the rylai's situation happened is because of the fairly few options for AP and health, I realize that item 3152 item 3030 are both options to help alleviate that, but their AP stats aren't as high as rylai's which naturally makes rylai's more enticing. High AP can be hard to come by

SpookyNeedleNov 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No, we haven't forgotten Frozen Mallet. Its use is fairly niche, and the champions who do apply it do so only at short to medium ranges. It's not very comparable with Rylai's situation as a result.

Are you going to change taliyah at all after the rylais nerfs?

Gnart Even CloseDec 1, 20161 votes

Would you be opposed to entirely removing Frozen Mallet, or do you believe it serves an important purpose in the game? Only Gnar really uses it as a core item, and he has plenty of other kiting tools in his kit already. Even if you're opposed to removing it due to the complications it could cause, would it be the kind of item you would add into the game if it wasn't already in it?

Akali PrimeNov 26, 20162 votes

if you nerf rylais in any type of way you might aswell rework AurelionSol because that item is pretty much the only thing that makes his kit viable

Dominick DestineNov 26, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hells bellsX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kg6EHbQX,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-26T22:06:39.524+0000)

if you nerf rylais in any type of way you might aswell rework because that item is pretty much the only thing that makes his kit viable

item 3030

SSJTribeNov 26, 20162 votes

I know better than to try and argue with you, but I'd say that the Hextech BigGulp slow doesn't last long enough for Sol's sustained DPS to do enough damage (nevermind the lower AP and health compared with current Rylai)