Zhonya's Hourglass/Guardian Angel
Either increase the cooldown on Zhonya's Hourglass or decrease the cooldown on Guardian Angel. I prefer to increase the cooldown on Zhonya's Hourglass.
30 Comments
Colton1473 votes
is trash and is in need of buffs.
okamiyasha951 votes
It's not trash and the stop watch addition was all the buffs it needed. Zhonya's and GA don't even need to be a thing but out of respect for diversity, I accept them. But what I can't accept is people being able to use Zhonya's every 2 minutes but then when I buy GA, I gotta wait 5 minutes to use it again. There is no balance there even though both the items have the same functions; avoid death. Just one goes to AD champs and the other goes to AP champs.
Beatrice falls1 votesIt's not trash and the stop watch addition was all the buffs it needed. Zhonya's and GA don't even need to be a thing but out of respect for diversity, I accept them. But what I can't accept is people being able to use Zhonya's every 2 minutes but then when I buy GA, I gotta wait 5 minutes to use it again. There is no balance there even though both the items have the same functions; avoid death. Just one goes to AD champs and the other goes to AP champs.
Because Zhonya is an active and you have to time it perfectly. Tbh I'd admit 60% of the time you just gonna die at the end of the duration. GA on the other hand triggers by itself upon death and unless you're fighting 
(bullshit bitch by the way), you won't instantly die again
okamiyasha951 votes[{quoted}](name=Beatrice falls,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KdM2yX3m,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-06T09:36:38.559+0000)
Because Zhonya is an active and you have to time it perfectly. Tbh I'd admit 60% of the time you just gonna die at the end of the duration. GA on the other hand triggers by itself upon death and unless you're fighting
Ik that, but Zhonya's works the same way. On 
flips over and over untargetable and gets away free. 
does the same thing. Because you can actively choose when to zhonya's you have way more options for outplays and survival. it also means that you can reduce the cooldown even further. GA is hella annoying to deal with. But imagine if it's cooldown was on 2 minutes after each pop. Zhonya's generally works the same way. You think you got the kill, but you don't. They use zhonya's to avoid a move, avoid burns, reset timers, and become safe while using their abilities. GA is just you kill an enemy and have to kill them again and then you have to wait until next game to use it again. Even going against champions like , it's not GA that's the problem. It's either a fed enemy or Riot's poor job at balancing the champ having them deal hella dmg with little risk.
Psyrix1 votesIt's not trash and the stop watch addition was all the buffs it needed. Zhonya's and GA don't even need to be a thing but out of respect for diversity, I accept them. But what I can't accept is people being able to use Zhonya's every 2 minutes but then when I buy GA, I gotta wait 5 minutes to use it again. There is no balance there even though both the items have the same functions; avoid death. Just one goes to AD champs and the other goes to AP champs.
... GA is a passive item... an item that gives you a REVIVE without you having to pop anything... not only that, but you can opt to keep it at stopwatch and keep the hourglass effect, or upgrade for an actual free revive. Zhonyas on the other hand briefly puts you out of the fight, doesn't grant you any health, and requires you activate it... So no, it's not just "avoid death"
okamiyasha951 votesYou can keep Zhonya's at stopwatch too. GA briefly puts you out of the fight too. If you can choose to activate it, you can choose not to activate it, meaning you can save it for a better time. The items' whole purpose is to "avoid death." One is for AP and the other is for AD. No other item puts you stasis. No other items keep you immune to all damage for a brief time. If you want to be specific, then GA does that and only that while Zhonya's allows you to do other things than just "avoid death." The enemy ignites you after a trade that should kill you then you Zhonya's. You avoid death. The enemy uses an ability that is supposed to finish you. You Zhonya's. You avoid death. An enemy depletes your health bar after a fight. Your GA is popped, you get health back and they don't get the kill, you avoided death.
What do you want, to have GA give players back 1 hp? If that's the case, then Zhonya's should activate every time your entire health bar gets depleted and no other time. We can make it to where you get health back too, and then increase the cool down time to 5 minutes OR do you want GA to have to be activated in order to use it? Then not give you any health back and decrease the cool down to 2 minutes?
Coming back with health is the trade off for not being able to use it when you want to. You get picked off or whatever, and you're forced to waste GA, then one minute later when everyone is about to fight, you don't have it. If you have Zhonya's, you can get picked off or whatever and one minute later when everyone is about to fight, you can use it. It makes up for coming back with extra health. Not only that, GA doesn't give you any cool down reduction. Both items at their core are balanced and equal. What makes them imbalanced is their cool down times. GA's cool down is fair, but Zhonya's is not and if you think Zhonya's CD is fair, then GA's cool down needs to be reduced to 2 minutes as well.
Ho1d This Q1 voteshonestly i say remove both of them and just give ap users a qss item. qss is a good active and should be an option for both ap and ad. while zhonyas is such a broken active it shouldnt be in the game. or at least make it less broken like if u activate it the cooldowns on ur abilities stay where they're at. like if vlads W has 3 seconds left of its cooldown when he activates it it should still have 3 seconds when he comes out of zhonyas. or like if heimerdinger activates it his turrets should be disabled as well. just simple things like that can make the active so much more balanced imo
ned the kled2 votesassassins are strong and are in need of nerfs.
FTFY
okamiyasha951 votesAssassins do need a nerf, but if you nerf assassins to where they don't one shot anymore, then buying GA becomes pretty useless when you can use that slot for a better damaging item. Zhonya's will not change because it creates to many opportunities for outplay and survivability where it shouldn't. If you play overagressive, you deserve to get punished and when you do get punished, you deserve to get punished hard for playing over aggressive. It shouldn't be lemme dive in, ult, one shot whomever, pop Zhonya's to avoid damage and reset my timers, and then get out. It shouldn't be, Lemme use an ability and pop Zhonya's while I'm using it to avoid getting killed or We lost the fight, I'm about to get caved on, lemme use my get out of jail free card every 2 minutes.
Inkling Commando2 votesas far as i am concerned GA is trash. when you die the enemy will sit there and wait for you to come back to life so they can kill you again. and the especially dickish people will set traps right by your temporarily dead body.
okamiyasha951 votesTBH, they do the same thing with Zhonya's, but the amount of time they have to set the traps up is lower.
Inkling Commando1 votesyes. GA is 4 sec and Hourglass is 2.5 sec.
okamiyasha951 votesThe trade off is that GA let's you get health back, while Zhonya's doesn't. If GA didn't give you any health back, it would be absolute turd. Poopity scoop. But I think the 4 seconds is a bit much compared to 2.5 seconds.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesOkay.
But, why exactly?
okamiyasha951 votesTo balance the items out. GA was created to give ADCs a little bit more survivability. Zhonya's was created to give AP champs a little bit more survivability. Mages and ADCs have the same functions in team fights. Deal hella damage from afar and provide damage towards objectives which is one of the reasons Riot buffed AP champs' damage to turrets. Having the Zhonya's CD so low ruins the balance between AP and AD champs. The item costs 100 more gold than GA and it provides the same usage. Avoid death as long as possible and avoid from getting one-shotted by assassins. yet, GA's CD is mor ethan twice as long as Zhonya's and it's statis (unable to control movement, declare attacks, cast abilities, activate items or use any summoner spell for the duration, while also being Intervention invulnerable and Playful untargetable) lasts longer which balances out the fact that you come back to life with more health.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesTo balance the items out. GA was created to give ADCs a little bit more survivability.
False.
GA was created to give EVERYONE a little bit more survivability.
Then Riot removed the Magic Resistance from the item, replaced it with Attack Damage, and now it's an ADC item even though nobody asked for it (as far as I know).
Mages and ADCs have the same functions in team fights. Deal hella damage from afar and provide damage towards objectives which is one of the reasons Riot buffed AP champs' damage to turrets.
Essentially, yes, but how they do it is different.
Mages usually blow their load on one target and then have to wait for cooldowns, I.E they're burst champions.
ADCs, on the other hand, can continuously attack the same target, providing sustained DPS.
Having the Zhonya's CD so low ruins the balance between AP and AD champs.
No, it doesn't, because AD champions have way more defensive options than AP champions have.
AD champions have: 
AP champions have: 
The item costs 100 more gold than GA and it provides the same usage. Avoid death as long as possible and avoid from getting one-shotted by assassins. yet, GA's CD is mor ethan twice as long as Zhonya's and it's statis (unable to control movement, declare attacks, cast abilities, activate items or use any summoner spell for the duration, while also being Intervention invulnerable and Playful untargetable) lasts longer which balances out the fact that you come back to life with more health.
Aforementioned AD champions still having more defensive options, and you actually have to use Zhonya's Hourglass manually, whereas Guardian Angel is going to save you no matter what.
okamiyasha951 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KdM2yX3m,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-09-06T17:04:00.184+0000)
False.
GA was created to give *EVERYONE a little bit more survivability.
Then Riot removed the Magic Resistance from the item, replaced it with Attack Damage, and now it's an ADC item even though nobody asked for it (as far as I know).
If you want to get technical. Then, yes it was created for everyone. What the fuck does that have to do with its usage now? It seems to me like you're more worried about dotting "I"s and crossing "T"s than actually creating a counter argument or substantial disagreement. For the past 2 years, it has been an AD item. My argument still stands correct.
Essentially, yes, but how they do it is different.
Mages usually blow their load on one target and then have to wait for cooldowns, I.E they're burst champions.
So, 
don't deal burst damage?
ADCs, on the other hand, can continuously attack the same target, providing sustained DPS.
So, 
don't all continuously attack multiple targets or one while providing sustained DPS?
No, it doesn't, because AD champions have way more defensive options than AP champions have.
AD champions have:
AP champions have:
To be honest, AD champs have more items that have more resistance. But AP champs have better scaling items, better scaling ratios, and they do the most damage. AP champs outclass AD champs in terms of damage. AP items also have more sustainability than AD items. The defensive stats on AD items was to ensure they wouldn't get one-shotted by mages and assassins or tanks for that matter. AP champs usually didn't have to deal with it since their range is farther and their items gave them health. So yes. AD champs have
But AP champs have
The itemization for defense is pretty balanced. However, when ADCs put more than one defensive item in their build, their damage suffers tremendously. AP champs on the other hand, their items still give them great AP.
Aforementioned AD champions still having more defensive options, and you actually have to use Zhonya's Hourglass manually, whereas Guardian Angel is going to save you no matter what.
Guardian Angel doesn't save you no matter what. There are plenty of cases where GA gets popped and because I'm in stasis for a long time, they set up traps and have their CDs reset in enough time to finish the job. GA is less cost effecient and less useful than Zhonya's. I don't know what League you play but 5 minutes is a long ass time to wait to use again. Games generally last for 30 minutes and you usually get GA as your third item, sometimes second. This means, on average your looking at only about 3-4 uses per game depending on if you avoid dying for an extended time. With Zhonya's, same thing. It's usually the second or third item, but you can use it about 10-12 times per game. Also, Because you can manually use Zhonya's, you have more chances for outplay and you have more chances to avoid damage when you do things you would normally get damaged for doing. The only thing that stops GA from being completely useless is the fact that you come back with some health.
So why is it okay to give a life saving item for AP champs a 2 min CD and another life saving item for AD champs a 5 and a half minute CD? Both items have the same impact. Both items have the same purpose. Both items generally operate the same way. The items dam near costs the same amount. make GA the same CD as Zhonya's or increase the timer on Zhonya's to 3 minutes.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesIf you want to get technical. Then, yes it was created for everyone. What the fuck does that have to do with its usage now? It seems to me like you're more worried about dotting "I"s and crossing "T"s than actually creating a counter argument or substantial disagreement. For the past 2 years, it has been an AD item. My argument still stands correct.
Your argument still stands, but your statement about Guardian Angel being created for AD champions has been proven false.
So,
They shouldn't.
Damage creep and Stomrazor has broken ADCs as a class.
So,
Ziggs doesn't.
Vladimir doesn't.
Twisted Fate is a hybrid champion.
Kayle isn't a Mage.
Karthus and Cassiopeia I'll give to you, but they are Battle Mages and Battle Mages are essentially just the ADCs of Mages.
But AP champs have
This is false.
Abyssal Mask is a Tank item.
Liandry's Torment only gives a measly 300 HP so I do not know why you consider this a "defensive item".
Same thing with Morellonomicon.
Twin Shadows doesn't even give any defensive stats at all.
The only one you can argue that's a defensive item is Rod of Ages, and that still only makes it three item AP champions can build for defense.
You can't just say that because an item gives health, then it's a defensive item.
Because if this was the case, then 
are all defensive items and should've been in the list.
The itemization for defense is pretty balanced.
False.
However, when ADCs put more than one defensive item in their build, their damage suffers tremendously. AP champs on the other hand, their items still give them great AP.
Because they aren't defensive items.
Guardian Angel doesn't save you no matter what. There are plenty of cases where GA gets popped and because I'm in stasis for a long time, they set up traps and have their CDs reset in enough time to finish the job.
That is not what I meant by "saving you".
By "saving you", I meant it's going to proc and put you in stasis no matter what, whereas Zhonya's has to be manually activated.
Oh, and this situation you're describing? This happens for AP champions as well, you know.
GA is less cost effecient
Yeah by 11.66%.
And this is just in raw stats.
The passive is better than Zhonya's active in almost every way, it procs no matter what, it lasts longer, and it restores health and mana after stasis is finished.
In fact, you get the passive 100 gold before AP champions do.
The only drawback is a longer cooldown.
and less useful than Zhonya's.
False.
I don't know what League you play but 5 minutes is a long ass time to wait to use again.
I never said 5 minutes weren't a lot of time?
Games generally last for 30 minutes and you usually get GA as your third item, sometimes second. This means, on average your looking at only about 3-4 uses per game depending on if you avoid dying for an extended time. With Zhonya's, same thing. It's usually the second or third item, but you can use it about 10-12 times per game.
I'm not disputing either of these.
Also, Because you can manually use Zhonya's, you have more chances for outplay and you have more chances to avoid damage when you do things you would normally get damaged for doing.
As if this is actually the case and people don't use it to delay their death by 2.5 seconds.
The only thing that stops GA from being completely useless is the fact that you come back with some health.
And mana.
And it lasts longer.
And it procs no matter what.
So why is it okay to give a life saving item for AP champs a 2 min CD and another life saving item for AD champs a 5 and a half minute CD?
Because AD champions have the benefits elsewhere.
Both items have the same impact. Both items have the same purpose. Both items generally operate the same way.
But their users don't.
The items dam near costs the same amount.
I wasn't disputing this.
make GA the same CD as Zhonya's or increase the timer on Zhonya's to 3 minutes.
I disagree.
okamiyasha951 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KdM2yX3m,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-07T08:09:57.327+0000) They shouldn't.
Damage creep and Stomrazor has broken ADCs as a class.
Stormarazors I agree with. But even before Stormrazors, damage creeps, and the whole ADC itemization rework, Those champs were still broken. They were still top tier. They still did hella burst damage. It's not the items. It's the champions kits that allow them to be burst ADCs.
Ziggs doesn't.
Depends on what you're definition of continuously attack multiple targets or one while providing sustained DPS means. Last time I checked, ziggs throws his bombs out left to right constantly poking champions in lane and in teamfights.
Vladimir doesn't.
In the laning phase, yes. In teamfights, he still does. Just not as much.
Twisted Fate is a hybrid champion.
Kayle isn't a Mage.
He's a mage. Officially he's a mage. People play him hybrid because his kit just so happens to synergize well hybrid itemizations and people like playing him hybrid. You're right. Kayle isn't a mage, but how come you don't say she's hybrid since the majority of her damage is AP? The only time she gets an item with AD is to get Rageblade and BOTRK.
Karthus and Cassiopeia I'll give to you, but they are Battle Mages and Battle Mages are essentially just the ADCs of Mages.
That is part of the entire argument I've trying to make. You have ADCs and then you have APCs. Battle mages are still mages.
This is false.
Abyssal Mask is a Tank item.
What does Abyssal Mask do again? It gives 300 mana, 10 percent cd, and what does its passive do again? "Restore mana equal to 15% of damage taken from champions. Restore health equal to 20% of mana spent, up to 25 health per cast, while toggle abilities can heal for up to 25 per second." Oh wait there's another thing to this item. "Nearby enemy champions take 15% more magic damage (325 range)." Tanks with magic AOE build it yes. But that does not mean AP mages who work off of its properties don't or can't build it. But you know what? Some AP don't have anything in their kit that works well off of mana. Abyssal Mask is a stretch and highly situational. Since it doesn't exactly give AP even though enemies in its AOE take more damage, I'll just say it's a tank item and not a defensive AP item.
Liandry's Torment only gives a measly 300 HP so I do not know why you consider this a "defensive item".
Same thing with Morellonomicon.
If you think that health doesn't count for defensive stats, then you're narrow-minded. Armor and MR mean nothing without health. Which tanks can you name that have 1000 health in the mid and late game and not get one shotted just because they have 300 armor and MR?
Twin Shadows doesn't even give any defensive stats at all.
It has an active slow and it gives extra movement speed. I don't have to explain how slowing an enemy counts as a defensive option do I?
Because if this was the case, then
I'm talking about ADCs here. In case you didn't get the memo from all my mages to ADC comparisons. Keep it in the ADC and mage realm. Not all AD champs.
False.
Alright. For the sake of it. Let's say you're right and defensive options aren't balanced. Can you agree that offensive items are not balanced as well? Can you agree that AP items are stronger, better scaling, and more in abundance?
That is not what I meant by "saving you".
By "saving you", I meant it's going to proc and put you in stasis no matter what, whereas Zhonya's has to be manually activated.
So, what you're saying is that because you have to manually activate it, it means that you die if you don't use it? If you don't use it since you're going to die anyways, you don't have to worry about the cooldown. That also means you still have a usable life-saver/play maker that you can use immediately. You dying because you didn't use Zhonya's is not the items fault. Therefore, that whole statement is negated. It's invalid. Because you can choose when and when not to use it, you're not forced to use it in situations you know you die. GA on the other hand, since it'll be popped regardless of if you know you will die, makes it a one or two time usage in the late game just to stay alive long enough to survive those two lasts fights that determine the game and hope your team can win the fight in your absence. At the same time, you don't really know if GA will be useful. You just buy it to hope it can maybe turn the game around. Zhonya's? You pretty much know it's going to be useful and you know how you're going to use it. Zhonya's has more survivability than GA and Zhonya's is way more useful than GA simply due to the fact that it's reusability more than doubles GA's. This puts champions like Talon, Syndra, Diana, Lee Sin, even Kassadin, Zed, etc, all champs who have abilities that are finishing moves or abilities that make them useless if missed, at a complete disadvantage. It gives champions like Vlad, Fizz, Ekko, Morg, Karthus, etc., champions that have abilities that work while in Zhonya's and adds as another escape option on top of their already escaping options, a complete advantage. GA does not synergize with anyone aside from AD stats nor does it give its user an outplay opportunity. GA lasts long enough for opponent's to make a clean get away.
Oh, and this situation you're describing? This happens for AP champions as well, you know.
It does, but do you use Zhonya's only when you're about to die?
Yeah by 11.66%.
And this is just in raw stats.
The passive is better than Zhonya's active in almost every way, it procs no matter what, it lasts longer, and it restores health and mana after stasis is finished.
The amount of time you are in stasis balances out the items at core value. If it lasts longer, then your opponent can retreat or set you up better than they can if your it didn't. At the same time, that's 4 seconds you are out of the fight. In that time, the enemy can stomp your team or even the odds. It also means that in teamfights, the enemy team has more time to position themselves to where they can all cave on you upon revival. The only thing that makes GA comparible to Zhonya's is the fact you get health and mana upon revival. If not for that, the item would not even exist. What do you want? They get revived with 1 hp and no mana? You get 50 percent of max Hp and 30 percent of mana. That means, you have 150 percent health and 130 percent mana you got. Wrong. After the GA is popped, the enemy can get away and now the item is useless until the next game. The only thing good about GA is the fact it prevents the enemy from getting shut down gold.
Because AD champions have the benefits elsewhere.
Well, duh. Otherwise, their would be no difference between ADCs and mages. mages deal more damage to opponents and ADCs deal more damage to objectives. That's it. There is no lopsidedness where one side deals more damage than the other. They deal about the same damage with AP champs having the advantage.
But their users don't.
That statement is unfair. The player who plays better will have the better impact. A mage and an ADC have the same level of impact in a game. A fed mage will give your team the same power a fed ADC will give your team.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesStormarazors I agree with. But even before Stormrazors, damage creeps, and the whole ADC itemization rework, Those champs were still broken. They were still top tier. They still did hella burst damage. It's not the items. It's the champions kits that allow them to be burst ADCs.
Would you mind giving some examples?
This is not necessarily me disagreeing with you on this point, I just want to know specifically what things you feel give the ADCs this innate burst damage.
Depends on what you're definition of continuously attack multiple targets or one while providing sustained DPS means. Last time I checked, ziggs throws his bombs out left to right constantly poking champions in lane and in teamfights.
By DPS I literally mean that damage is continuously happening every second.
Ziggs has short intervals of 3 - 4 seconds between his bombs, therefore I wouldn't call him a DPS champion.
DPS champions also usually deal less damage at once, but more damage over time, compared to burst champions that deals loads of damage but only in a short timeframe.
And Ziggs' bombs do exactly the latter.
Therefore, I'd feel more inclined to call him a burst champion.
In the laning phase, yes. In teamfights, he still does. Just not as much.
Refer to above.
He's a mage. Officially he's a mage. People play him hybrid because his kit just so happens to synergize well hybrid itemizations and people like playing him hybrid.
I don't have the League client installed on this PC and apparently it doesn't say what role Twisted Fate is on neither the official website, nor the wikia.
But I'm guessing what you're saying is true.
However, I'd still refer to the above situation with Ziggs.
You're right. Kayle isn't a mage, but how come you don't say she's hybrid since the majority of her damage is AP? The only time she gets an item with AD is to get Rageblade and BOTRK.
I didn't say she wasn't a hybrid, I just wanted to make it clear that she isn't a Mage.
That is part of the entire argument I've trying to make. You have ADCs and then you have APCs. Battle mages are still mages.
I'm not sure I understand.
Sure, Battle Mages are still Mages, but that does not mean that ALL Mages are suddenly DPS champions, just because a sub-category of Mages are DPS champions.
What does Abyssal Mask do again? It gives 300 mana, 10 percent cd, and what does its passive do again? "Restore mana equal to 15% of damage taken from champions. Restore health equal to 20% of mana spent, up to 25 health per cast, while toggle abilities can heal for up to 25 per second." Oh wait there's another thing to this item. "Nearby enemy champions take 15% more magic damage (325 range)."
I'm not disputing it's stats. I am fully aware of what it does.
I was comparing Abyssal Mask to it's previous incarnation, Abyssal Scepter.
Abyssal Scepter was undoubtedly an AP item before, but it was reworked and shifted over towards not giving any AP and having the Eternity passive.
Tanks with magic AOE build it yes.
A team comp that has a lot of AP damage dealers might want to have their Tank build it so he can be in melee range and apply the aura to enemies around him, whilst the Mages on his team benefit from it.
But that does not mean AP mages who work off of its properties don't or can't build it.
And I'm not saying that AP champions can't build it.
I'm just saying that don't build it.
90% of the time, they'll build Rod of Ages over it.
If you think that health doesn't count for defensive stats, then you're narrow-minded.
I'm not saying that health isn't a defensive stat.
I'm saying that just because an item gives you health, in addition to other offensive stats like AD or AP, that does not make the item a defensive item.
And if you think it does, you might be the narrow-minded on here.
Armor and MR mean nothing without health.
I'm inclined to agree.
Which tanks can you name that have 1000 health in the mid and late game and not get one shotted just because they have 300 armor and MR?
None, because Tanks get one shot regardless.
It has an active slow and it gives extra movement speed. I don't have to explain how slowing an enemy counts as a defensive option do I?
The "It gives movement speed" argument can't be used, because that would mean 
are all defensive items.
As for the slow, yes, it can be used defensively, but that's almost never the case.
Twin Shadows is usually used to scout for enemies nearby, or for slowing down one that's about to escape.
It has both offensive and defensive capabilities in it's active, but stats-wise it's leaning more towards offensive with the large amounts of AP.
I'm more inclined to call it offensive than defensive.
I'm talking about ADCs here. In case you didn't get the memo from all my mages to ADC comparisons. Keep it in the ADC and mage realm. Not all AD champs.
ADCs are fully capable of building both Frozen Mallet and Black Cleaver, just like how Mages are fully capable of building Abyssal Mask.
You either list everything they're capable of on both side, or you do it on neither side.
Alright. For the sake of it. Let's say you're right and defensive options aren't balanced. Can you agree that offensive items are not balanced as well? Can you agree that AP items are stronger, better scaling, and more in abundance?
Stronger? Yes, they have to, because AP only applies to spells whereas AD applies to both abilities that scale off of it, as well as basic attacks.
Better scaling? I don't think so. From what I can remember, AD champions usually have higher scalings than AP champion
More in abundance? No.
AD: 
AP: 
For the sake of the list, I've only included items that quote on quote "Only ADCs and only Mages can buy" and it's still fairly balanced.
Running out of space on this comment. Will continue below.
okamiyasha951 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KdM2yX3m,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-14T12:05:39.118+0000)
Would you mind giving some examples?
This is not necessarily me disagreeing with you on this point, I just want to know specifically what things you feel give the ADCs this innate burst damage.
Draven's early game Q back before its nerf was one example. Then if he stacked his Q again for double axes, it was even worse. Let him get to mid game and late game with some items and he could 3 piece, 2 piece if fed, squishies with just autos. Tristana mid and late game when she got statik Shiv and IE, now it's just Stormrazor. She would hop in get her bomb proc off, burst a champ down, then rocket jump 5 miles away from the area of combat. Lucian once he hits level 2, he E's in gets his prc off, Q's you for some damage, gets his proc off again and now you're at less than half health. At level 3 with no items, you're almost dead. Late and mid game he can burst you down with just statik and Essence Reaver.
By DPS I literally mean that damage is continuously happening every second.
You got it. Since I used DPS, gotta stay in the definition. With that being said, ADCs deal more DPS. Yes. However, some mages do have passives that burn and they do have abilities that last a pretty long time meaning they deal DPS. Now Ziggs doesn't have to just throw bombs to deal damage to you even though most do. Zyra doesn't have to just Q you to do damage to you. Her plants can do it for her.
Sure, Battle Mages are still Mages, but that does not mean that ALL Mages are suddenly DPS champions, just because a sub-category of Mages are DPS champions.
I'm not saying ALL mages are DPS. When I said DPS, I was using it wrong. I was thinking more along the lines of damage dealt over the course of the fight. Not every second. TF is a mage that is bursty and deals a lot of damage over the course of a short time, which is why he's so successful as a mid laner and sometimes jungler. He can ult practically anywhere quicker than TP, stun you and burst you down to little health and throw cards at you faster than Gambit to finish you off. In the laning phase, he constantly throws out cards, which doesn't cost him a lot of mana and has a short CD, and constantly hit you with his ability passives. I made the point to say that you have SOME burst ADCs even though mages are supposed to be the bursty side of the coin and ADCs are supposed to be the DPS side of the coin, but SOME mages are DPS mages as well. Or to be more exact, some mages rely on their DPS more than others don't have to, to have kill potential.
None, because Tanks get one shot regardless.
Ealry yes. Only because of their lack of armor and mr runes, but once late game hits, assuming the tank stays at an average pace and doesn't fall behind, it is difficult to kill a tank.
The "It gives movement speed" argument can't be used, because that would mean
As for the slow, yes, it can be used defensively, but that's almost never the case.
Twin Shadows is usually used to scout for enemies nearby, or for slowing down one that's about to escape.
Fair enough. I'll give it you on the movement speed. However, the fact that Twin Shadows slows AND gives bonus movement speed is why I said it was defensive. Supports buy it and yes they do use it to engage, but they also use it to disengage. I say it hangs in the middle. All the other items you listed, except one, only have one of the two. Not both.
It has both offensive and defensive capabilities in it's active, but stats-wise it's leaning more towards offensive with the large amounts of AP.
The reason it leans more towards AP is because supports' kits scale off the AP. Meaning, it would give you more shield and healing power and or make you more useful in teamfights. The item is a support item to not only give you more ability power (QWER and not damage) and give immobile champs a chance at mobility. Hence, it's cost is low. But, people always find ways to abuse items.
I'm more inclined to call it offensive than defensive.
ADCs are fully capable of building both Frozen Mallet and Black Cleaver, just like how Mages are fully capable of building Abyssal Mask.
You either list everything they're capable of on both side, or you do it on neither side.
Fair enough.
Better scaling? I don't think so. From what I can remember, AD champions usually have higher scalings than AP champion
Then when you pit a late game AP champ against a late game ADC, who wins the fight? Even in teamfights, AP champs deal more damage than ADCs. I agree with you on the AA and ability scaling with AD, but abilities do way more damage than auto attacks. Therefore, AP champs will always deal more damage. They're designed to use their abilities. Meaning, they generally have lower cooldowns on their abilities than AD champs Then when you add on the fact that AP items give more damage than AD items. The stats are out there. AP champs just deal more damage than AD champs.
More in abundance? No.
AD:
AP:
If we're keeping this in the ADC versus Mid lane Mages' items, you left out
AD: and 
cuz if they go a lethality build, they will mostly likely get these items. However, all of these including were assassin items. ADCs just built it because lethality items were broken AF at the time on all AD champs. Now with the addition of Stormrazor and the IE rework, ADCs get more damage building their normal crit itemization than lethality.
AP: 
and 
. Yes. Mid lane mages do build these items aside from in which only like 2 or 3 mid lane mages build. Ryze and Kassadin.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesDraven's early game Q back before its nerf was one example. Then if he stacked his Q again for double axes, it was even worse. Let him get to mid game and late game with some items and he could 3 piece, 2 piece if fed, squishies with just autos. Tristana mid and late game when she got statik Shiv and IE, now it's just Stormrazor. She would hop in get her bomb proc off, burst a champ down, then rocket jump 5 miles away from the area of combat. Lucian once he hits level 2, he E's in gets his prc off, Q's you for some damage, gets his proc off again and now you're at less than half health. At level 3 with no items, you're almost dead. Late and mid game he can burst you down with just statik and Essence Reaver.
Yeah damage really needs to be toned down a bit.
At least for the champions that aren't supposed to burst people down.
You got it. Since I used DPS, gotta stay in the definition. With that being said, ADCs deal more DPS. Yes. However, some mages do have passives that burn and they do have abilities that last a pretty long time meaning they deal DPS.
Sure, Mages like Brand and Malzahar can be considered DPS champions, I'd agree.
Then again, Brand is all over the place. Is he a Burst Mage? Control Mage? Artillery Mage? Battle Mage? Everything at once?
Now Ziggs doesn't have to just throw bombs to deal damage to you even though most do.
I'm assuming you're referring to his passive, Short Fuse, but that has a pretty hefty cooldown if he isn'tn continually spamming his abilities.
Zyra doesn't have to just Q you to do damage to you. Her plants can do it for her.
Sure, I'd also consider Zyra a DPS champion.
I'm not saying ALL mages are DPS. When I said DPS, I was using it wrong. I was thinking more along the lines of damage dealt over the course of the fight. Not every second. TF is a mage that is bursty and deals a lot of damage over the course of a short time, which is why he's so successful as a mid laner and sometimes jungler. He can ult practically anywhere quicker than TP, stun you and burst you down to little health and throw cards at you faster than Gambit to finish you off. In the laning phase, he constantly throws out cards, which doesn't cost him a lot of mana and has a short CD, and constantly hit you with his ability passives. I made the point to say that you have SOME burst ADCs even though mages are supposed to be the bursty side of the coin and ADCs are supposed to be the DPS side of the coin, but SOME mages are DPS mages as well. Or to be more exact, some mages rely on their DPS more than others don't have to, to have kill potential.
I pretty much agree with you here.
The only thing I want to enforce is that the vast majority of Mages aren't DPS champions, just like how the vast majority of ADCs aren't burst champions.
Ealry yes. Only because of their lack of armor and mr runes, but once late game hits, assuming the tank stays at an average pace and doesn't fall behind, it is difficult to kill a tank.
From personal experience, I can't really say that this is the case.
Although, it my be some sort of innate bias that I have.
The reason it leans more towards AP is because supports' kits scale off the AP. Meaning, it would give you more shield and healing power and or make you more useful in teamfights. The item is a support item to not only give you more ability power (QWER and not damage) and give immobile champs a chance at mobility. Hence, it's cost is low. But, people always find ways to abuse items.
Good point.
Then when you pit a late game AP champ against a late game ADC, who wins the fight?
In the ideal situation, an AP champion should win against an ADC, in a one-on-one fight, that is.
Burst is more effective against DPS when it comes to squishy targets, which both Mages and ADCs are.
Even in teamfights, AP champs deal more damage than ADCs. I agree with you on the AA and ability scaling with AD, but abilities do way more damage than auto attacks. Therefore, AP champs will always deal more damage. They're designed to use their abilities. Meaning, they generally have lower cooldowns on their abilities than AD champs Then when you add on the fact that AP items give more damage than AD items. The stats are out there. AP champs just deal more damage than AD champs.
Yes and no.
Yes, they deal more damage.
No, they only deal more damage within a short timeframe. Over the course of the entire fight, an ADC should deal the most damage, due to having consistent and sustained DPS.
I'm saying should because if they don't, then there's a design flaw.
If we're keeping this in the ADC versus Mid lane Mages' items, you left out AD:
I mostly left them out considering they're usually for melee champions, but I did include them at first.
AP:
This isn't really build on standard Mages.
I've only seen it being build on AP Assassins like Akali and Diana.
Same thing as above.
I already included staff in my list.
and
I don't consider this a completed item.
It only costs 1400 gold and it's usually sold in the late game for something else.
Mid lane mages do build these items aside from
And Hextech Gunblade is only build on 2 or 3 champions as well.
And Nashor's Tooth is only build on 2 or 3 champions as well.
okamiyasha951 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KdM2yX3m,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-19T06:36:46.971+0000)
Although, it my be some sort of innate bias that I have.
No bias. It's kind of iffy. If the tank or juggernaut is really fed, they are practically unkillable. But a normal tank nowadays is more on the squishy side of things. They don't feel like tanks. Riot's response to this was to give them more damage since they didn't feel viable, but let Cho'Gath, Poppy, Galio, and some other ones get to mid and late game. It'd take a lot of effort to kill them. Don't get me started on Singed.
Good point.
Yes and no.
Yes, they deal more damage.
No, they only deal more damage within a short timeframe. Over the course of the entire fight, an ADC should deal the most damage, due to having consistent and sustained DPS.
I'm saying should because if they don't, then there's a design flaw.
Depends on how short we're talking. In 3 or 4 seconds, mages deal more damage, but in 8, ADCs deal more damage. Either way, I'm agreeing with you. I went into Practice Tool just now and tested it out.
I mostly left them out considering they're usually for melee champions, but I did include them at first.
This isn't really build on standard Mages.
I've only seen it being build on AP Assassins like Akali and Diana.
Same thing as above.
Fair.
I already included
I don't consider this a completed item.
It only costs 1400 gold and it's usually sold in the late game for something else.
And Hextech Gunblade is only build on 2 or 3 champions as well.
And Nashor's Tooth is only build on 2 or 3 champions as well.
Fair again.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesSo, what you're saying is that because you have to manually activate it, it means that you die if you don't use it?
I'm saying that because you have to manually use it, hard CC can prevent you from activating it.
Guardian Angel goes through regardless.
If you don't use it since you're going to die anyways, you don't have to worry about the cooldown.
Agreed.
That also means you still have a usable life-saver/play maker that you can use immediately.
Not if affected by hard CC.
You dying because you didn't use Zhonya's is not the items fault. Therefore, that whole statement is negated. It's invalid.
I never said it was, so I do not know what "whole statement" was negated and is now invalid.
Because you can choose when and when not to use it, you're not forced to use it in situations you know you die.
And I never said you are.
GA on the other hand, since it'll be popped regardless of if you know you will die, makes it a one or two time usage in the late game just to stay alive long enough to survive those two lasts fights that determine the game and hope your team can win the fight in your absence.
Which is basically the same function Zhonya's serves in the late game as well.
At the same time, you don't really know if GA will be useful. You just buy it to hope it can maybe turn the game around.
Yes and no.
Yes, there is the possibility that people just gang around your corpse and kill you again, but that situation happens just as often with Zhonya's.
No, an extra life is always useful, no matter the situation.
Zhonya's? You pretty much know it's going to be useful and you know how you're going to use it.
Not entirely.
Refer to being affected by hard CC and the whole "gang around" situation.
Zhonya's has more survivability than GA
Not sure what you mean by this.
and Zhonya's is way more useful than GA simply due to the fact that it's reusability more than doubles GA's.
It's more useful in some points, and GA is more useful in other points.
This puts champions like Talon, Syndra, Diana, Lee Sin, even Kassadin, Zed, etc, all champs who have abilities that are finishing moves or abilities that make them useless if missed, at a complete disadvantage.
None of these champions are "useless" if they miss something, barring Zed.
It gives champions like Vlad, Fizz, Ekko, Morg, Karthus, etc., champions that have abilities that work while in Zhonya's and adds as another escape option on top of their already escaping options, a complete advantage.
Vlad cannot do anything in Zhonya's besides being in W, where he's already invulnerable.
Fizz, likewise, cannot do anything in Zhonya's either, unless he already has his ult on you.
Ekko too.
Morgana has to stay close to the target for the ability to work. If she uses Zhonya's, she can't follow her target.
Only thing in Karthus kit that works with Zhonya's is E, which requires him to stay close to someone, which he can't if he activates Zhonya's.
GA does not synergize with anyone aside from AD stats nor does it give its user an outplay opportunity.
It delays burst from champions like the ones you mentioned above.
Besides, who says GA is an "outplay" item?
It's just supposed to be a second life.
It has never in any incarnation been outplay oriented.
GA lasts long enough for opponent's to make a clean get away.
So does Zhonya's.
It does, but do you use Zhonya's only when you're about to die?
No, but 90% of the time, this is what happens.
The amount of time you are in stasis balances out the items at core value.
What does this even mean?
If it lasts longer, then your opponent can retreat or set you up better than they can if your it didn't.
Yes, but on the other hand, it also gives more time for your allies to save you.
I think you're only looking at the negatives here.
At the same time, that's 4 seconds you are out of the fight.
An extra life for a mere 4 second time out seems fair.
In that time, the enemy can stomp your team or even the odds.
Or vice versa.
It also means that in teamfights, the enemy team has more time to position themselves to where they can all cave on you upon revival.
Or vice versa.
The only thing that makes GA comparible to Zhonya's is the fact you get health and mana upon revival. If not for that, the item would not even exist.
And because of the other benefits.
What do you want? They get revived with 1 hp and no mana?
No? I didn't say anything like that?
You get 50 percent of max Hp and 30 percent of mana. That means, you have 150 percent health and 130 percent mana you got. Wrong.
It's not wrong just because something else happens after.
After the GA is popped, the enemy can get away and now the item is useless until the next game.
You're still only looking at the negatives.
The only thing good about GA is the fact it prevents the enemy from getting shut down gold.
And aforementioned.
Well, duh. Otherwise, their would be no difference between ADCs and mages. mages deal more damage to opponents and ADCs deal more damage to objectives.
In theory, yes, but due to recent changes, Mages are starting to 5 shot towers once they round up about 800-1000 AP.
That's it. There is no lopsidedness where one side deals more damage than the other. They deal about the same damage with AP champs having the advantage.
How do AP champions have the advantage exactly?
In terms of damage, that is.
That statement is unfair. The player who plays better will have the better impact. A fed mage will give your team the same power a fed ADC will give your team.
That is true.
A mage and an ADC have the same level of impact in a game.
In the ideal state of the game, they should.
But depending on what the meta is currently revolving around, one is more valuable than the other.
Refer to the Ardent Censer meta.
okamiyasha951 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KdM2yX3m,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-09-14T13:27:57.944+0000)
Let me Explain it like this; when you're going against someone, would you rather them be useless and non-responsive for 4 seconds or 2 seconds in a fight? Would you rather be useless and non-responsive for 2 seconds or 4 seconds in a fight?
Yes, there is the possibility that people just gang around your corpse and kill you again, but that situation happens just as often with Zhonya's.
Not really, because you can choose when to use it. Most people use Zhonya's either to survive/avoid an enemy's ability (Zed ult, Vlad ult, Veigar ult, etc) or to stay safe until their cooldowns are reset (Fizz, Shaco, Ekko). People only use GA for one thing: a second chance, but they have no say when they can use it.
Refer to being affected by hard CC and the whole "gang around" situation.
You keep saying hard cc like GA isn't affected by hard cc. If you chose to use Zhonya's in a situation you knew you couldn't get out of or to be greedy and go for a kill even if it means death, then that does not put the item on the same us level as an item that gets used regardless of your say so. That's like volunteer versus obligated. If you don't want to use Zhonya's, you don't have to. If you don't want to spend 50 dollars to get out of jail, you don't have to. If you don't want to use GA, well then, too bad. This is your third go round in jail, you're gonna pay that 50 if you want to or not.
It's more useful in some points, and GA is more useful in other points.
Zhonya's is useful is more in situations than Zhonya's though.
None of these champions are "useless" if they miss something, barring Zed.
Vlad cannot do anything in Zhonya's besides being in W, where he's already invulnerable.
Fizz, likewise, cannot do anything in Zhonya's either, unless he already has his ult on you.
Ekko too.
After studying my own argument as for as that, I have to say, only like 5 or 7 champs use Zhonya's that way. It's not a lot, but for the class, it's a decent amount. You don't just have to use Zhonya's with your abilities. Zhonya's has more options for use than just only using it to make your abilities safe.
Morgana has to stay close to the target for the ability to work. If she uses Zhonya's, she can't follow her target.
Regardless, she still uses it in that manner. In teamfights, she's going to be close enough.
Only thing in Karthus kit that works with Zhonya's is E, which requires him to stay close to someone, which he can't if he activates Zhonya's.
Again, he can still use it. There are more uses to Zhonya's.
It delays burst from champions like the ones you mentioned above.
Besides, who says GA is an "outplay" item?
That's one of the points in my OP I use to say the items are not balanced. Or at least, that's what I was trying to say.
It's just supposed to be a second life.
It has never in any incarnation been outplay oriented.
Like you said, "An extra life is always useful, no matter the situation." Of course GA has outplay potential. It's been seen in pro play. But the chances of it outplaying anyone are very, very slim. They can just run away. It has outplay potential in team fights.
So does Zhonya's.
When you kill an enemy and they are in the process of reviving themselves, would you rather wait 2 seconds or 4? 4 seconds is a pretty long time to be waiting to re-kill someone. In team fights, would you rather be out of the fight for 2 seconds or 4 seconds? a 4 v 5 for 4 seconds versus 2 seconds decides a lot.
You're still only looking at the negatives.
If it seems that way, it's because the item has more disadvantages than advantages. Would I want to see the item being used more often? Hell no. If I kill someone, I want them dead. But if GA has a long CD, why shouldn't Zhonya's. I dislike Zhonya's as much as I dislike GA yet Zhonya's is more useful than GA and has a lower CD.
And aforementioned.
In theory, yes, but due to recent changes, Mages are starting to 5 shot towers once they round up about 800-1000 AP.
How do AP champions have the advantage exactly?
In terms of damage, that is.
We can agree that in a 1 v 1, early, mid and late game, AP champs can burst down ADCs right? They both deal the same amount of damage, at least before the AP damage ratio to turrets buff. ADCs deal major damage to objectives and the enemy front line while Mages deal hella damage to champions and less damage to objectives.
When I say AP mages have the advantage; Would you rather kill enemies in one rotation of ablilities so you can take objectives and farm without worrying about an enemy or would you rather constantly worry about an enemy while trying to get objectives and trying to deal damage to enemies? Playing AP champs are easier. They hit their abilities and enemies are dead. They have more CC/stuns in their kits. ADCs have to constantly worry about positioning and farming to stay relevant. Mages do not need farm to be relevant (Brand support, Lux support, Veigar, Morg) and they don't have to worry about positioning as much as ADCs since they have more kill potential. Mages counter ADCs but ADCs don't counter mages. ADCs are just better picks for objective seizure which is why there is always an ADC in pro play. Objectives win games. Also, with the AP damage ratio buff, mages can split and take turrets almost as quick as ADCs can.
That is true.
In the ideal state of the game, they should.
They should, but Mid lane Mages are dealing more damage than ADCs as of right now.
But depending on what the meta is currently revolving around, one is more valuable than the other.
Refer to the Ardent Censer meta.
Yes. But Zhonya's and GA have and always will be items bought regardless of the meta. Unless, they make another item for ADCs. GA is highly situational now that BOTRK is prominent. More people would rather fill that slot with BOTRK than GA, but Zhonya's is almost always preferred in ALL AP champs' builds.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesLet me Explain it like this; when you're going against someone, would you rather them be useless and non-responsive for 4 seconds or 2 seconds in a fight? Would you rather be useless and non-responsive for 2 seconds or 4 seconds in a fight?
You're still only looking at the negative side of things.
Whilst stasis might mean the enemy team has more time to gather around you, it also grants more time for your allies to reach you and help you out.
In this scenario, 4 seconds is superior.
It's a double-edged sword really.
Not really, because you can choose when to use it.
Not if you're affected by hard CC you can't.
Most people use Zhonya's either to survive/avoid an enemy's ability (Zed ult, Vlad ult, Veigar ult, etc) or to stay safe until their cooldowns are reset (Fizz, Shaco, Ekko). People only use GA for one thing: a second chance, but they have no say when they can use it.
So what, you want GA to be an active item?
Because reducing the cooldown of the item isn't going to give the user more control over when it activates, only that they can activate it more often.
You keep saying hard cc like GA isn't affected by hard cc.
It isn't?
If you chose to use Zhonya's in a situation you knew you couldn't get out of or to be greedy and go for a kill even if it means death, then that does not put the item on the same us level as an item that gets used regardless of your say so. That's like volunteer versus obligated. If you don't want to use Zhonya's, you don't have to. If you don't want to spend 50 dollars to get out of jail, you don't have to. If you don't want to use GA, well then, too bad. This is your third go round in jail, you're gonna pay that 50 if you want to or not.
This isn't what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying that if someone stuns you, you literally cannot use Zhonya's and if they can burst you down fast enough, you're dead.
This situation doesn't happen with GA, because even if they stun you, you're going to be revived no matter what.
Zhonya's is useful is more in situations than Zhonya's though.
What?
After studying my own argument as for as that, I have to say, only like 5 or 7 champs use Zhonya's that way. It's not a lot, but for the class, it's a decent amount. You don't just have to use Zhonya's with your abilities. Zhonya's has more options for use than just only using it to make your abilities safe.
Sure, it has more uses, but those uses usually apply to all the users of the item, not only a select few.
The select few are the ones that have abilities that synergize with Zhonyas's, like Morgana and Fiddlesticks.
The rest like Fizz and Ekko synergize with Zhonya's just as well as any other Mages. In my opinion, at least.
Regardless, she still uses it in that manner. In teamfights, she's going to be close enough.
If you have disengage, she isn't going to be close enough.
Again, he can still use it. There are more uses to Zhonya's.
He can still use it and yes there are more uses to Zhonya's, but you can't attribute these things to Karthus specifically when they apply to everyone else.
That's one of the points in my OP I use to say the items are not balanced. Or at least, that's what I was trying to say.
Apologies, but I'm not sure I understand.
Like you said, "An extra life is always useful, no matter the situation." Of course GA has outplay potential. It's been seen in pro play. But the chances of it outplaying anyone are very, very slim. They can just run away. It has outplay potential in team fights.
And it's primarily supposed to be bought for teamfights, which means it fulfills it's purpose and niche.
I don't see the issue, unless you somehow want the item to stun the guy who killed you for as long as you're in stasis.
When you kill an enemy and they are in the process of reviving themselves, would you rather wait 2 seconds or 4? 4 seconds is a pretty long time to be waiting to re-kill someone. In team fights, would you rather be out of the fight for 2 seconds or 4 seconds? a 4 v 5 for 4 seconds versus 2 seconds decides a lot.
There are too many variables to say which one is better for sure.
It's different from situation to situation.
If it seems that way, it's because the item has more disadvantages than advantages. Would I want to see the item being used more often? Hell no. If I kill someone, I want them dead. But if GA has a long CD, why shouldn't Zhonya's. I dislike Zhonya's as much as I dislike GA yet Zhonya's is more useful than GA and has a lower CD.
If I have to guess, I'd assume it's to give Mages a chance at laning against Assassins.
ADCs usually don't have to do so, which is probably why.
We can agree that in a 1 v 1, early, mid and late game, AP champs can burst down ADCs right?
Agreed, because that's what they're supposed to do.
They both deal the same amount of damage, at least before the AP damage ratio to turrets buff. ADCs deal major damage to objectives and the enemy front line while Mages deal hella damage to champions and less damage to objectives.
Sure but the lines are getting more blurred if Riot doesn't take initiative to stop the rampant damage creep.
When I say AP mages have the advantage; Would you rather kill enemies in one rotation of ablilities so you can take objectives and farm without worrying about an enemy or would you rather constantly worry about an enemy while trying to get objectives and trying to deal damage to enemies?
It depends on the matchup.
Playing AP champs are easier.
That's a matter of opinion I guess.
They hit their abilities and enemies are dead.
Depends on matchup.
They have more CC/stuns in their kits.
Well, of course they do, since that's part of their design.
I guess?
ADCs have to constantly worry about positioning and farming to stay relevant. Mages do not need farm to be relevant (Brand support, Lux support, Veigar, Morg)
They almost certainly need farm to do the aforementioned "hit people with spells and they die".
Brand I'll give, however. He has way too much base damage.
and they don't have to worry about positioning as much as ADCs since they have more kill potential.
More kill potential on squishy targets, yes.
Mages counter ADCs but ADCs don't counter mages.
I'm assuming you've heard of rock, paper, scissors, correct?
It's the same situation.
Mages (scissors) counter ADCs (paper), which counter Tanks (rocks), which counters aforementioned Mages.
ADCs are just better picks for objective seizure which is why there is always an ADC in pro play. Objectives win games.
Sure, that's part of their design.
Also, with the AP damage ratio buff, mages can split and take turrets almost as quick as ADCs can.
That buff was a mistake.
They should, but Mid lane Mages are dealing more damage than ADCs as of right now.
In short amounts of time or overall?
On squishy targets or Tanky targets?
Yes. But Zhonya's and GA have and always will be items bought regardless of the meta. Unless, they make another item for ADCs. GA is highly situational now that BOTRK is prominent. More people would rather fill that slot with BOTRK than GA, but Zhonya's is almost always preferred in ALL AP champs' builds.
I just don't think increasing the cooldown on Zhonya's is going to discourage people from buying it and unless you want GA to become a mandatory purchase on all AD champions, I don't think this situation that you're describing is going to change.
okamiyasha951 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KdM2yX3m,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-09-19T08:21:19.633+0000)
You're still only looking at the negative side of things.
Whilst stasis might mean the enemy team has more time to gather around you, it also grants more time for your allies to reach you and help you out.
In this scenario, 4 seconds is superior.
It's a double-edged sword really.
In that case, that gives the enemy 4 seconds to gather to you as well. Also, 4 seconds out of a fight is enough time for the enemy to turn the tide of the fight. While the same thing can be said for Zhonya's, the difference is in 2 seconds, you still have time to keep the tempo for your team in a fight. I don't only look at the negatives, but I have to address them as opposed to the positives for the sake of my argument. If you say the stasis balances out for what the items do, then why should GA's cool down be 5 minutes while Zhonya's cool down is at 2 minutes? If I give a negative, you give a positive. If your positive counters my negatives, then we can agree like we did in the above posts and I can weigh the positives with the negatives in determining which item's usage is better, worse, or even.
So what, you want GA to be an active item?
I don't want GA to be an active item. That was never my gripe. In fact, I don't even want the item to be used actively. That was never my goal. However, I feel as though the items are even. Therefore, if GA has a cool down of 5 minutes, Zhonya's should have a cool down of 5. I'll even take 3 and a half minutes, but 2? That's too short for me.
Because reducing the cooldown of the item isn't going to give the user more control over when it activates, only that they can activate it more often.
It isn't?
You're right. You have to use GA regardless. Another reason why Zhonya's is more useful than GA.
This isn't what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying that if someone stuns you, you literally cannot use Zhonya's and if they can burst you down fast enough, you're dead.
This situation doesn't happen with GA, because even if they stun you, you're going to be revived no matter what.
On the other hand, even though you die without using Zhonya's, you can use again immediately after. If you choose to want to use Zhonya's while being hard CC'd, then I think that would be a waste of using the item. That's a scenario where you're going to die anyway. Unless you think ahead and use it before getting CC chained.
What?
LMAO. I meant Zhonya's is more useful than GA.
Sure, it has more uses, but those uses usually apply to all the users of the item, not only a select few.
The select few are the ones that have abilities that synergize with Zhonyas's, like Morgana and Fiddlesticks.
The rest like Fizz and Ekko synergize with Zhonya's just as well as any other Mages. In my opinion, at least.
Pretty much, but GA does not synergize with ANY ADC. It only has one purpose and no other uses.
If you have disengage, she isn't going to be close enough.
Nope. She won't. But she'd have done her job. At that point, either you have to disengage or just overpower the enemy team.
I don't see the issue, unless you somehow want the item to stun the guy who killed you for as long as you're in stasis.
Never. But Zhonya's can be bought for more situations not just team fights.
There are too many variables to say which one is better for sure.
It's different from situation to situation.
Fair.
If I have to guess, I'd assume it's to give Mages a chance at laning against Assassins.
ADCs usually don't have to do so, which is probably why.
Well as someone who primarily stays in the bot lane, I can say, that assassin junglers come quite often. Aside from assassin junglers, a lot of burst mages and bursty ADCs are played. So no we don't lane against assassins, but we have to worry about being killed just as much, sometimes more than mid laners.
Sure but the lines are getting more blurred if Riot doesn't take initiative to stop the rampant damage creep.
Very true.
It depends on the matchup.
True.
That's a matter of opinion I guess.
To be fair, yes. But playing the roles aren't. Having to ADC is much more difficult than having to go mid.
They almost certainly need farm to do the aforementioned "hit people with spells and they die".
Only the ones that need gold early to be relevant in the mid game. But give them a couple of kills and it's on regardless of how late in the game it is or regardless of how much cs they have.
Brand I'll give, however. He has way too much base damage.
Don't forget about Veigar, he only needs to hit champs. So, him being played as a support is even better for him than being played in the mid lane. I can build tank on Veig with health runes and still deal a ton of AP damage. Lux is iffy. She can be played as support and still one shot squishies.
More kill potential on squishy targets, yes.
Aside from assassins becuase they're more tanky than they should be, I'd say most people play squishy champs nowadays.
I'm assuming you've heard of rock, paper, scissors, correct?
It's the same situation.
Mages (scissors) counter ADCs (paper), which counter Tanks (rocks), which counters aforementioned Mages.
Mages counter ADCs, ADCs counter tanks, but then what are assassins and bruisers? Juggernauts counter them all. Lmao. Only rocks, paper, and scissors together can beat Juggernauts.
In short amounts of time or overall?
On squishy targets or Tanky targets?
Overall. It doesn't matter what target. They deal the most damage. To objectives, jungle camps, and champs. Mostly champs though. https://champion.gg/statistics/?league=gold#?sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend
I just don't think increasing the cooldown on Zhonya's is going to discourage people from buying it and unless you want GA to become a mandatory purchase on all AD champions, I don't think this situation that you're describing is going to change.
I don't care if people buy it. Like I was saying, for the sake of diversity and options, I accept the item. I just have a problem with it being used so often in the duration of a game compared to GA when both items seem to balance out in terms of usage. As of right now, it is a mandatory purchase. Just like Zhonya's is.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesI snipped what you said because I can sort of agree with most of it and if we both keep being stubborn and refuse to acknowledge the other's points, we'll never get anywhere.
You're right in that there's a difference in power between the two items, so let's try to reach a satisfying conclusion for both of us.
First up is the difference in gold efficiency.
For Guardian's Angel, I thought of increasing the Attack Damage to 50 (up from 45) and increasing the Armor to 50 (up from 40).
This means Guardian's Angel is now 98.21% gold efficient (without it's passive) up from 84.82%.
During my calculations, I found out that there's a smaller difference in gold efficiency if the Armor on Zhonya's is increased to 50, than if it's left at 45.
The difference is 0.01%, to be exact.
Therefore, if we want the gold efficiency to be as even as possible, the Armor on Zhonya's has to be increased by 5, increasing it's gold efficiency to 99.93% up from 96.48%.
However, this reduces the gold efficiency difference between the items significantly, from 11.66% to 1.72%.
Second up is the duration at which stasis lasts for.
This one is a bit more simple. Let Zhonya's Hourglass' Stasis last for 3 seconds, and let Guardian's Angel's Stasis last for 3 seconds.
Zhonya's keeps you out of the fight for longer, and Guardian's Angel keeps you out of the fight a little shorter, which were both problems that you brought up.
This is as even as it can get.
As for the cooldown... Again, this is the one where I think we're going to disagree.
I'd feel more inclined to compensate elsewhere by making Guardian's Angel's revive stronger.
Changing health you restore to 50% of maximum health instead of it's current 50% of base health and changing mana you restore to 50% instead of 30% is something I can agree with.
I'll give myself and say increase Zhonya's Hourglass' cooldown to 150 seconds (30 second increase) and decrease Guardian Angel's cooldown to 250 seconds (50 second decrease) but I'm afraid that that's the farthest I'll budge.
okamiyasha951 votesThis I can agree with. My major gripe is that I believe Zhonya's cool down is too short and GA is too long. As someone who plays against GA, it's not that hard to deal with. As someone who plays GA, the item is a one time buy since it takes forever to be reused. At the end of it, I can agree with your suggestion.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesThis I can agree with. My major gripe is that I believe Zhonya's cool down is too short and GA is too long. As someone who plays against GA, it's not that hard to deal with. As someone who plays GA, the item is a one time buy since it takes forever to be reused. At the end of it, I can agree with your suggestion.
Great. I'm glad we could come to a compromise.
I thought about reducing the cooldown on Guardian's Angel further by 10 seconds down to 240 seconds, so it can have a satisfying 4 minute cooldown as oppossed to 4 minutes and 10 seconds.
I want to thank you for this conversation, even if we might've had our disagreements.
More from Gameplay
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes