AP mid mains, I really want to know...

AninLegions777·Feb 20, 2016·1 votes·1,161 views

Would you like Zhonyas to have 100 armor? Cos that's what it seems you all are asking for.

48 Comments

WalkingInACircleFeb 20, 20166 votes

No, I'd rather have the passive seperated from the AP/armor item. But more to the point, a stat efficient item you can build early against AD.

IonianFeb 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No, I'd rather have the passive seperated from the AP/armor item. But more to the point, a stat efficient item you can build early against AD.

A fully stacked armguard is 138% efficient. Hexdrinker below 30% hp is 160% efficient. Even though armguard is not as good as hexdrinker, it's a nice early item vs AD. The problem about zhonyas is not at all the recipe, but the ridiculously high combine cost for just an active.

Vistha KaiFeb 21, 20164 votes

It's not a matter of gold efficiency. That is just a statistic. It's a matter of in-game strength.

Let's compare Seeker's(stacked) to Hexdrinker, in an imaginary situation. Syndra, level 1, 24.7+9(runes) armor. Zed, level 1, 32.1+0(because I like CDR/level) magic resistance.

No items, both receive 1000 damage. Syndra takes 746 damage. Zed takes 757 damage.

Now let's give both of them aforementioned items. Syndra with 24.7+9+45 armor. Zed with 32.1+35 magic resistance.

Syndra gets 575 damage. Zed gets 598 damage, but Hexdrinker triggered, absorbing 183,9 damage(because the shield scales with MR). Zed received 414,1 damage.

To even out Syndra would need to deal 269.1 damage before resistances to even out the fact Zed has Hexdrinker. In her case it's 3.24 x Dark Sphere worth of damage or in other words, full rotation of spells.

The power of mere Hexdrinker is, simply put, stupidly strong.

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

Seeker's Armguard isn't a bad item tbh. It's actually quite effective against Zed and the likes.

Vistha KaiFeb 20, 20164 votes

I'd like for my Zhonya to have 55 armor, an absorption shield equal to 300+my bonus armor that triggers whenever I'd fall below 30% HP, 20% spell vamp and 15% CDR when the shield procs until I run out of targets to basic attack.

Also, Seeker's Armguard should also grant me an absorption shield equal to 110-280 whenever I fall below 30% HP.

Then we can consider Hexdrinker and Maw of Malmoritus "balanced".

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 21, 20161 votes

Well when ever mages have to get within 550 to melee range to be effective than maybe Zhoyna's can start to do that. Until then since mages can do real damage from the back line where an assassin or adc would have to be on the front line to do the same I say its a fair trade off. It seems like mage mains want the better defensive items even though mages are some of the safest champs in the game.

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

You do know that giving that high amount of CDR that early in the game breaks every mid laner right? Because AP Mid have higher ranged spells and AoE skills. Adding CDR and spell vamp, well good luck.

Vistha KaiFeb 21, 20162 votes

The point went right past you.

AninLegions777Feb 22, 20161 votes

And what exactly was your point?

Vistha KaiFeb 22, 20162 votes

The point was showing how broken Hexdrinker and Maw are compared to Seeker's and Zhonya's.

Also even if that wouldn't be my point, 20% spell vamp is completely worthless on 95% of mage champions, while 15% CDR is something people rushing Morello get after like 6 minutes of farming.

AninLegions777Feb 23, 20161 votes

Hex drinker isn't broken. I mean Annie with blasting wand can burst you down real quick compared to Talon and Zed with 0 counterplay. Same with LB. Hexdrinker is meant to give AD mids a chance to survive the burst. Also Seekers isn't even bad. Talon or Zed can't all in you with fully stacked seekers with only hexdrinker. It's weak.

That's the thing. Makes SHOULDNT rely on spell vamp. They rely on bursts. Except for Rengo, all AP mates have better bursts than AD. 15% CDR so early is broken. Accept it. It allows mates to reach the 40%/45% CDR limit faster than usual which is bad for the game.

Vistha KaiFeb 23, 20162 votes

In an imaginary situation where both AD and AP receive 1000 points of damage, the difference between Hexdrinker and fully stacked Seeker's is about 300 damage.

So the moment, say, Zed gets Hexdrinker, the mage needs to have 140-170 AP (with an average AP scaling per ability varying between 0.6 and 0.7) to even it out. Which is about 3000-3700 gold worth of AP.

Completely not broken.

AninLegions777Feb 23, 20161 votes

Look, I don't know how to explain so you can understand. Let me try one last time. Mages have poke or/and AoE or/and DoT. All these can be used to chunk the ADC mid until the shield is used. Wait it out, then go all in. It's that simple.

Vistha KaiFeb 23, 20162 votes

You assume an ADC or an assassin will be just standing still, not doing anything.

AninLegions777Feb 23, 20161 votes

Point and click? Try dodging LB's QW combo. 4 of that or even 3 will definitely proc the shield. Not to talk of Malz. Max E and just use it with voidlings. Easy life.

Vistha KaiFeb 23, 20161 votes

As I main Syndra, I don't need to dodge LeBlanc's QW combo.

She needs to dodge the thought about using it out of fear of dying.

AninLegions777Feb 23, 20161 votes

Remember we are saying AP vs. AD assassins not AP vs. AP.

Vistha KaiFeb 23, 20161 votes

Then it's even better.

Talon can switch places with LB easiely when she's starting her combo. Zed is even more forgiving as he doesn't need to aim at her.

Again, you are assuming they are going to stand in one place.

AninLegions777Feb 24, 20161 votes

Point-and-click abilities. Can't dodge that.

Vistha KaiFeb 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Point-and-click abilities. Can't dodge that.

Because LeBlanc's Q deals SOOO much damage alone it's literally unplayable for her opponents.

AninLegions777Feb 24, 20161 votes

Her QW is almost instant. What's your argument?

ForgiveColourFeb 20, 20163 votes

lol no they think their autoattack doesnt do damage so they want to have infinite mana and abilites do 400% damage to minions

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

Pretty much every AP mid main that can't manage mana and take advantage of their spell range and AoE.

SwiftKitten88Feb 21, 20163 votes

i would like some other items that have armor as an AP mage... at least ONE other

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

Well that would be like wanting an armor item for ADCs. Mages are meant to burst before they can be killed. Giving them tankiness defeats that purpose.

The Queen ViperFeb 20, 20161 votes

What does 100 Armor even matter these days?

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

Lool. 100 Armor is a lot that early in the game. Pair that with RoA and you become a walking AP tank against AD champs.

MyrmironFeb 20, 20161 votes

Honestly that would be awesome. Imagine the builds you could do with an item THAT slot efficient. This would make Zhonyas viable on all sorts of bruiser and tank champs.

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

It will just become like Sterak's Gage. That didn't work out very well.

r u pregrantFeb 20, 20161 votes

no we dont U BUTT

Mecha MaIphiteFeb 20, 20161 votes

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

Not butt. Buff. As in ripped. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

IonianFeb 20, 20161 votes

Yes, actually.

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

Noted.

CerealBoxOfDoomFeb 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Would you like Zhonyas to have 100 armor? Cos that's what it seems you all are asking for.

bruisers would build it then

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

It means Elise players won't build Frozen heart anymore. This will break the game. Which is why I'm saying that AP+Armor items for mages isn't a really good idea.

CerealBoxOfDoomFeb 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It means Elise players won't build Frozen heart anymore. This will break the game. Which is why I'm saying that AP+Armor items for mages isn't a really good idea.

it can be, I actually would be ok with elise not getting frozen heart.

but who ever said to double the armor on it?

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

No one said double the armor. But they are saying that it gives little armor. That it isn't enough to stop assassins. Also elise SHOULD get frozen heart. It reduces her already high dmg output. Giving her high AP and Armor on the same item will raise her Winrate a lot.

CerealBoxOfDoomFeb 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No one said double the armor. But they are saying that it gives little armor. That it isn't enough to stop assassins. Also elise SHOULD get frozen heart. It reduces her already high dmg output. Giving her high AP and Armor on the same item will raise her Winrate a lot.

well ya, 50 armor without hp to stack with wont stop assassins. It doesnt need to either. It just needs to buy time so someone can save you after you zhonyas

AninLegions777Feb 21, 20161 votes

Get RoA. Problem solved.

CerealBoxOfDoomFeb 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Get RoA. Problem solved.

thats 2 slots without much damage, unlike assassins you can't just go splitpush or something when you dont have enough damage, you still have to keep going into teamfights and pretending youre able to do anything at all

AninLegions777Feb 22, 20161 votes

Without much dmg? Nooo mate. If Zhonyas gave 100 armor along with 100 AP combined with RoA 500 HP and 120 at max stacks, that's 500 HP and 220 AP. 220 AP with one item. Throw in Deathcap and you'll be nearing 400 AP or more. Even without Rabaddon's, that's a lot of dmg.

LauchmelderFeb 22, 20161 votes

And Duskblade is a good idea in your opinion?

AninLegions777Feb 23, 20161 votes

What does duskblade have to do with this?

The Bearded BardFeb 21, 20161 votes

Were actually asking for more armor options, not a super buffed zhonyas

AninLegions777Feb 22, 20161 votes

More armor options for Mages like Annie than can destroy 2 squishies with 2 abilities? Nah mate. That's just like asking for armor options for Lucian or MF.

BadmoonBCFeb 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Would you like Zhonyas to have 100 armor? Cos that's what it seems you all are asking for.

Just reduce the ridiculous cost. It was already an expensive item, It needs to go back to that. They buff ad champs, buff them with new items then too, but nerf zhonyas? I mean come on

AninLegions777Feb 23, 20161 votes

Considering it has arguably the best passive, I'd say the price is right. Wait until the mage update. New items will come. I bet you that you guys will be the same ones shouting for AP item nerfs.