It's depressing that Rammus as an iconic jungle champion is now better in top lane

Durfain·Jan 6, 2017·45 votes·2,960 views

Can we buff cinderhulk or something? Playing jungle tanks (Zac not included) feels pretty terrible right now.

33 Comments

SpecterVonBarenJan 6, 201710 votes

Meanwhile I'm here still crying over Maokai .

DurfainJan 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile I'm here still crying over .

Maokai is included as well (although in many ways his kit is better designed for top lane)

5000000000000000Jan 6, 20173 votes

I feel like his kit is best designed for support role, at least on paper.

The passive works best when 4 people are casting spells instead of 2. The W has an untargetability so that the support can't interrupt the engage. The E is a vision tool The R affects everyone within it, so its effectiveness is maximized when used with a teammate.

General Esdeath Jan 6, 20171 votes

His passive works best when fighting top laners like Riven who aren't limited by mana and casts multiple spells. But I see where you're coming from. But I think he's not a good support because being able to do all these things means he does them at a mediocre level, making it inefficient.

5000000000000000Jan 6, 20172 votes

Yeah. Here's not a great support, partly due to his high mana cost (and tank supports don't get a lot of mana regeneration). I haven't tried it since Redemption (for some early mana regeneration), though. Maybe it works better now.

His biggest strength as a support is safety from ganks, I'd say. Sightstone+ saplings provides so much vision. His peel is pretty good. His engage is subpar.

Miror BJan 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. Here's not a great support, partly due to his high mana cost (and tank supports don't get a lot of mana regeneration). I haven't tried it since Redemption (for some early mana regeneration), though. Maybe it works better now.

His biggest strength as a support is safety from ganks, I'd say. Sightstone+ saplings provides so much vision. His peel is pretty good. His engage is subpar.

The problem with maokai as a support is that braum basically does what he does only infinitely better. Not only is his cc "Ranged" (maokai actually has to get up close to the enemies in order to use it), but the vision you get from those saplings (only lasting 1min or so, making them a bit meaningless once you get a sightstone) is mitigated by the fact that braum can stop objective steals. Unless you're running a comp specifically around him, then I can't really see why he's worth playing in the support role.

5000000000000000Jan 7, 20171 votes

Maokai also has a ranged slow on his saplings. It's mostly useful for weak disengage (when enemy is chasing you) than engage or pick, though.

Saplings also have much longer range than sightstone, so you won't be caught off when going to ward, and you can also ward more areas since saplings don't count as wards. Maokai can provide so much vision, and do so safely. This is useful not only for Dragon and Baron, but also for sieging towers. Not to mention, sightstone has a limited charge system.

There's also that Braum has no quick hard CC besides his ultimate. Maokai has a low cooldown knockup/slow, and a targeted snare.

His vision tool is not as weak as you think. He's not the best support, but he isn't completely outclassed by Braum either.

SpecterVonBarenJan 8, 20171 votes

It is rather odd how that is. I've experimented with Mao support and it just doesn't work, and I have no idea why, it's like you say, it looks perfect on paper but in practice it doesn't work out.

PapaGreg21Jan 6, 20176 votes

Rammus is so unfun in the jungle now. It takes forever in those early clears to get all the birds and krugs out of there.

Divine WindsJan 8, 20171 votes

dammit birds and stones ruining an ancient gods day

Make Rammus Great Again

Mostro GalloJan 6, 20176 votes

Rammus is fine, and so are other similar tanks. The issue is not that they are "under performing", it is that several consistent jungle perpetrators (whose LeeSin names' shall Hecarim not Shyvana be named Shaco ) are over performing, and need to actually be looked at.

TFBaamJan 7, 20171 votes

not shaco anymore not with the mid patch update. they made ad unviable then they nerf ap shaco. rip i feel sorry for the poor guy

MirkhailJan 7, 20171 votes

shaco is one of the best jungler right now, maybe even the best, even after the nerf! And he is building AD!

Divine WindsJan 8, 20171 votes

Shaco is one of those champions, like teemo, where you know they won't be useful but you still get tilted off of them

Tychusfindlay919Jan 6, 20173 votes

And even then rammus top kind of sucks ass with Darius ramping up in play rate to combat all of the Poppy picks coming out.

DragonSheaJan 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And even then rammus top kind of sucks ass with ramping up in play rate to combat all of the picks coming out.

True. I can atest to that as a rammus main.

Leo1024Jan 6, 20172 votes

he feels just fine in jg to me if you know what you're doing

xeviJan 6, 20172 votes

I love playing Sej as a tank jungler though. She's super fun imo and has enough AoE to clear raptors early with the right runes

ImNotGioJan 6, 20172 votes

I used to go Shen jg, I still do I just don't get cinderhulk anymore. Its more viable to just get Bloodrazor and sunfire cape than Cinderhulk.

ModCaptainMårvelousJan 7, 20172 votes

was designed as a top laner. Ekko was mid lane. Diana was a jungler. Zyra was a mid laner. Graves was supposed to be a bot laner. Poppy was said to be a good jungler.

If you look at things, champs have a pretty high chance of landing in a role they weren't designed for.

TFBaamJan 7, 20171 votes

ekko still sees alot of play in mid lane, and diana is still good at jg, just no one wants to buy a non flashy 6300 champ (glad shes getting lowered). zyra yea was a midlaner but they said they wanted to shift her to the support role. and for poppy yea she can still jungle (better tanks tho) but who "said" shes a good jg? riot or reddit. lol

macromiteJan 7, 20172 votes

rammus has always been jungle/top. his clear was never that great.

MirkhailJan 7, 20172 votes

Rammus is still good both in jungle and in lane, there isn't even so much difference between the two.

Sire HippingtonJan 8, 20172 votes

it's equally depressing that champs like Nidalee, Heca and Shyvana are jungle only while they once were strong sololaners.

it be lìke thatJan 6, 20171 votes

even zac feels terrible right now in silver. silver this year is fucking worse than s6 somehow.

its like its everyones first game.

Rakdos CacklerJan 7, 20171 votes

I love playing Sejuani but as of late she's been better to me in support then jungle. she's good peel, insane ult, tons of cc, there's almost no downside. it's somewhat worse then, say, naut or braum, but i dont have to worry about the minion wave as Seju, i just q over the entire wave and then im on top of two people and am tanky enough to not die. i consistently go like 3/1/20+, but can never achieve the same as jungle seju

ÈvilMortyJan 7, 20171 votes

Not even that, his clear speeds are horrid. Rammus W needs a small buff so that his return damage is better on monsters and or buff the ratio of the return damage

LordOfTheLeagueJan 7, 20171 votes

Why don't they give cinderhulk an auto attack proc like grasp of the undying that would proc with this masteries and give back some power on this mechanic.

SanKakUJan 7, 20171 votes

He's okay in jungle IMO if you go Bond of Stone.

a special oneJan 7, 20171 votes

lmao wtf are u saying? buff what? Hecarim Skarner Zac Amumu Poppy

Gregor GysiJan 7, 20171 votes

Rammus still has a >50% winrate in the jungle, just because he is even stronger on toplane that doesn't mean he should get buffed in the jungle. Seju, Zac, Amumu and Skarner all do very fine. The reason why we don't see even more tanks in the jungle is that Toplane is absolutely dominated by tanks and therefore another full tank is rarely needed in the jungle. Hence all the CotC bruisers in the jungle.

Denims Wrath666Jan 8, 20171 votes

I don't even bother going tank rammus if im doing jungle with him. item 1419 item 3075 item 3091 item 3800 item 3068 / item 3078

this is not a teamfight build- this is assassin rammus in all honesty. small fights, or farming.

Earl EulrichJan 8, 20171 votes

mostly smite should restore mana aswell, as many tanks suffer quite some mana-problems if they want to clear somewhat fast and sustained.

but yea, Cinderhulk is just a really bad concept - tanks are strongest in the midgame, when their items offer good stats for the money, while later on they fall far behind the scaling of dps, especially crit...so having a tank item to rush that needs time to scale up really is the most terrible thing if you want to be actually powerfull when it matters as a tank. Heck, right now i usually rush Sunfire when i jungle tanks, at it´s combination of armor and health is way better for turret-dive ganks and fighting the opponent jungler...so you can actually make moves on the map without being on their mercy.

Cinderhulk really should go back to the old item with a good amount of health and tenacity or sth similar.