I can only see global tank-item nerfing work if we remove %Pen

Rebonack··3 votes·813 views

For the Tank update, I mean. The plan right now, as I understand it, is to scale back the resistance value on defensive items by some amount while at the same time increasing the base resist growth of Vanguards, Wardens, and probably Juggernauts.

Problem with doing this and nothing else, however, is that it could potentially make any form of defensive itemization on otherwise squishy champions even more of a trap. If you think being an AP Mage with only one armor item is bad now, think of what it'll be like when its armor values get dinged by 20% with no compensation. Now it'll be even easier to hit you for true damage between lethality and %Pen.

That's why I think Riot should finally take the opportunity to remove %Pen and %Shred from items completely. Combine with a nerf of about ~20% to resist from items, that should solve the enduring issue the game has had for quite some time now. If you're up against a hard target and you have no %Pen they're effectively immortal. If you're up against a hard target and you DO have %Pen, they go down like a sack of bricks. However, if we remove %Pen/Shred and nerf resist down to sane values the situation isn't nearly so binary.

That also means that a defensive item or two would be less of a trap option on, well, basically everyone else. Because I don't think making it counter-productive to build defensive items on champs like Yi, Xin, and Wolfy would help their viability at all. There are, after all, plenty of champs who want to build defensively who aren't Tanks.

15 Comments

Inner Squid1 votes

problem would be tanks who do stack armor, without any pen or shred the would have to be focused by the entire team to bring down. If they kept flat pen and built %shred into certain abilities on the champs that needed it would probably be a better fix

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Khaoz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KKzG2m9b,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-23T17:43:22.461+0000)

problem would be tanks who do stack armor, without any pen or shred the would have to be focused by the entire team to bring down. If they kept flat pen and built %shred into certain abilities on the champs that needed it would probably be a better fix

Keeping flat pen is fine, I think. But removing %Pen will get rid of the major abuse cases. Obviously you would need to find the right resist value to strike that sweet spot between 'doesn't explode instantly' and 'immortal'.

And yeah, removing %Pen/Shred from items would make it that much more valuable when it's something in a champ's kit. Right now no one gives a fuck about the hybrid %Shred on Kog's Q. But in a world where everyone can't become a tank-buster with one item? Suddenly it is far more useful against hard teams.

Rewt1 votes

I think that LW items and BC are just a bit over tuned. I think BC should go to a 2% shred stacking 5 times (10% shred) and buff the item slightly. LW should be a 25% shred. This will tune it down while still leaving tank busting items in the game. (75% armor shred reduced to 35% shred).

The KDA is a lie1 votes

The problem is, if %pen is added to some champion's kit and removed from items altogether, it makes these champions innately overpowered and almost forced to be pick/ban or it's a lose. Can you imagine ? The ennemy team has one tank, you didn't get one of these %pen champions, and now you're very likely to lose just because of this, and nothing you do will change that.

%pen items allow for a better counterplay to tanks just "stacking hp and resists". The current problem is that the counterplay provided is too effective.

Häßlich1 votes

{quoted}

The problem is, if %pen is added to some champion's kit and removed from items altogether, it makes these champions innately overpowered and almost forced to be pick/ban or it's a lose. Can you imagine ? The ennemy team has one tank, you didn't get one of these %pen champions, and now you're very likely to lose just because of this, and nothing you do will change that.

%pen items allow for a better counterplay to tanks just "stacking hp and resists". The current problem is that the counterplay provided is too effective.

The opposite issue you have is when one of those tank shredders builds tank shredding items too. It shouldn't be that easy to just completely invalidate a tank and all his items. I'm not sure that completely removing %pen is a good route to go, but LoL has been plagued with a constant battle over tank-meta and assassin-meta, with very few times of anything else in between.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

thats literally the point of a tank, to mitigate damage. the issue people have is the tank who builds armor killed them anyway.

the point of being a tank is to front line damage and provide cc/engage/peel for the team.

back in my day everyone built 1 bloodthirster and last whisper then they could ignore tanks and just auto them to both death and outsustain their damage output. thats no longer the case.

Anomander1 votes

MonkeyKing JarvanIV Urgot Yasuo Garen

All of these champions have some form of % armor pen. Some apply it for other to take advantage of. Others only get it for themselves.

I would prefer to just see the way they apply % pen and flat pen change so that flat is always applied first.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

true damage doesn't mean anything if you have a large enough health pool (tanks often struggle to break 4k despite building 6 tank items, unless you throw in warmogs)

what you should be worrying about its % damage amps. true damage doesn't mean anything, bonus damage for dipping into negative resistances is the worry.

say you're trying to front line for your team, this is the build most tanks take.

item 3068 item 3065

item 3047 / item 3111 core

then it usually looks something like these items

item 3143 / item 3075 / item 3110 against heavy ad teams

or item 3102 into AP teams

then thornmail/warmogs finishing with a banshees veil if you didn't already build one.

so usually tanks only build an additional (500 SFC, 500 RO, 500 SV, 300 BV) 1800 health. let me tell you 1800 health isn't all that much considering the low cooldowns and huge damage amps on champions like khazix. making you wonder "wait i thought i had 75% physical damage reduction against AD, why did his Q deal 440 damage?"

some replace thornmail or frozen heart for IBG, thats fine too. but its still a lot less health.


i miss the days where last whisper void staff were the only pen options. things were much better when tanks weren't out trying to brawl carries but could just take the attention for a while instead.

MaeDoSan1 votes

% pen removes more than 20 % resistances without it you do no dmg to tanks Without pen , will 20% nerf to items and buff to base values balance it , nope

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

% pen removes more than 20 % resistances without it you do no dmg to tanks Without pen , will 20% nerf to items and buff to base values balance it , nope

45% is too strong.

0% is too weak.

Therefore there must be some value between 45% and 0% that would be balanced.

MaeDoSan1 votes

your asking to remove it

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

your asking to remove it

As an itemization option, yes. Coupled with nerfs to the resist values on items which sound like they're going to be happening one way or the other.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The goal of the update is to make single defensive purchases less effective on everyone who is not a warden, juggernaut or vanguard. By doing so, you make the defensive power of wardens and vanguards more attractive and necessary.

The main abusers of current defensive items are divers, and in many cases a diver can serve most of the same purpose as a vanguard (especially divers with AOE CC like Vi and Wukong) while being "tanky enough" and dealing significantly more damage.

If mages want to cry about poor armor options, let them. They're squishy, they get blown up, such is life. Same for skirmishers and assassins. Your job is not to tank, so don't cry when we make tanking less viable for you.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KKzG2m9b,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-23T19:16:42.323+0000)

The goal of the update is to make single defensive purchases less effective on everyone who is not a warden, juggernaut or vanguard. By doing so, you make the defensive power of wardens and vanguards more attractive and necessary.

The main abusers of current defensive items are divers, and in many cases a diver can serve most of the same purpose as a vanguard (especially divers with AOE CC like Vi and Wukong) while being "tanky enough" and dealing significantly more damage.

If mages want to cry about poor armor options, let them. They're squishy, they get blown up, such is life. Same for skirmishers and assassins. Your job is not to tank, so don't cry when we make tanking less viable for you.

There's a pretty big difference between tanking and not wanting to explode instantly when you get caught by half of someone's rotation late game. There is absolutely no way that nerfing defense across the board without toning damage down a bit will result in anything less than even more of a game of rocket tag than what we're playing right now.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

They just nerfed damage across the board. Read the patch notes. Everyone is losing % damage from masteries.

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