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Remove Koggy's range steroid

Rebonack··3 votes·465 views

Now before you grab the pitch-forks hear me out.

When Koggy was originally added to the game he had 750 attack range when his W was active. Back in the day, that was plenty of buffer between himself and folks who wanted to kill him. He was able to dance around outside the range of various targeted gap closers and generally do his job. But now in the League of Mobility 710 range just isn't cutting it. And now that Jinx boasts similar range (with a much stronger lane phase, 100% range uptime, greater utility, and similar damage provided she's hitting at least two targets with Fishbones) it's really leaving poor Koggy without a leg to stand on. His niche of long-range auto-attacker is getting trampled all over by Trist (if you want more safety) and Jinx (if you want more damage).

Right now, Koggy's identity could be summed up as 'Immobile tank-busting artillery platform that's also a long-range machine gun sometimes'. I'm suggesting we tighten that up to 'Immobile tank-busting artillery platform'.

So here's what we do.

Koggy's base attack range is increased to 550. His W %HP damage becomes passive. His W active enhances his next auto-attack with a huge range buff, allowing him to lob a single auto-attack waaaaaay over there. Y'know. Like an artillery platform. This would pretty much without question require his W to get a mana cost again. Free long-range harass is bad (lookin' at you, Gnar).

Because Koggy would no longer be able to burn people down with intense DPS from 710 range (the aspect of him that tends to get abused in super-organized high-level games) he could safely be buffed for us mere mortals. Who knows, this might even open up enough kit power to give him a passive that actually fits with his kit! From here Riot would be able to either improve his artillery potency or his ability to duel folks who try jumping on him.

tl;dr: remove the least interactive part of Koggy's kit, freeing up a TON of kit power. Make him THE artillery champion.

20 Comments

Sohleks2 votes

As a one time hit it'll probably only be more effective to burst squishies. Kog's identity is ability to tear tanks to pieces late game. Tanks have really fallen out of popularity though especially in solo queue. I don't believe Kog is really all that bad. It is odd he has downtime though and I have to wonder how problematic it really is.

Also his passive is fine. No where does it say every champion needs an effective passive to be viable. How can you not have a little fun with his passive?

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

As a one time hit it'll probably only be more effective to burst squishies. Kog's identity is ability to tear tanks to pieces late game. Tanks have really fallen out of popularity though especially in solo queue. I don't believe Kog is really all that bad. It is odd he has downtime though and I have to wonder how problematic it really is.

I ran a poll on favored Koggy builds not too long ago and the ones at the top of the list were Trinity-based ADC and Ult-Focused AP. Both of those builds are fond of blowing up soft targets.

I would imagine the W active I've suggested would be sorta like Ashe's Volley in terms of cooldown. Starts off really high to prevent too much unavoidable harass and then scales down to a really low CD at level 5. This change would face Koggy players with a meaningful choice in team fights (you know how much Riot loves meaningful choices). He could either stand back at a safe range and chip away at people with his Ult/W, or he could move into average ADC range and lay on the hurt with his augmented auto-attacks. Safe and stable damage or high-risk, high reward?

Right now there's no meaningful choice with Koggy's W. It has no cost. If a fight is happening you just pop it, click someone you don't like, and then pray that your Tank doesn't decide to try chasing after kills instead of peeling for you.

How can you not have a little fun with his passive?

And it is funny, I'll admit that. Reindeer Koggy can actually sing while exploding. But I would take a thematic Innate that works well with the rest of his kit over a funny one.

Leti the Yeti1 votes

I think the one thing killing tanks are now are a shit load of autoattacks... from adcs ;l I would say givin him 1 long range nuke probably wont be killing tanks as well as rapid machine gun AA from a safe 710~ range

Centuros1 votes

It would require some bonus to the auto, because a single auto doesn't do much if it doesn't crit. Then again, this might make me build sheen on him...

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

It would require some bonus to the auto, because a single auto doesn't do much if it doesn't crit. Then again, this might make me build sheen on him...

Haha.

Trinity Force is really popular on ADC Koggy. Lichbane is great on AP Koggy. Both of those builds would benefit from having a W that kicks Koggy's range up to 800 or so for one auto-attack.

Just to add to that, of all the alternate Innates I've seen suggested for Koggy over the years my favorite was one that gives him bonus magic damage OnHit equal to a percentage of his missing mana. That would be a lot of fun, I think. Carefully balancing your mana to get the most OnHit damage you can without running yourself OOM and being useless.

ofart1 votes

I'm not sure how I feel about this. He'd need a lot of other buffs to compensate and that might make him oppressive in lane.

I think his design's fine. I'd just want his level 16 ult. to scale back to previous values (it can start at 75%) and a Q with the old .7 AP ratio. I'd also be a fan of making W more impactful but adding back a mana cost (greatly weakening his laning and early harass potential). For example, having W cost 50 mana and gradually reducing that to 40, 20, 10 and 0 but perhaps giving it another 40 range at max rank.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Mentions Jinx's AA range, but entirely forgets that +10% total AD =/= +6% of target's max HP.

In no way am I stating that Kog'maw is fine as is, but you're definitely overlooking the benefits of hybrid and %HP DPS on Kog'maw.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Mentions Jinx's AA range, but entirely forgets that +10% total AD =/= +6% of target's max HP.

In no way am I stating that Kog'maw is fine as is, but you're definitely overlooking the benefits of hybrid and %HP DPS on Kog'maw.

Not in the least! I think you may have misunderstood me. That's okay, I'll clarify.

Koggy's single target damage is without question much better than Jinx'. If Jinx is hitting at least two targets with Fishbones then her damage contribution to the team fight is higher.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. He'd need a lot of other buffs to compensate and that might make him oppressive in lane.

As with all things it would need to be fiddled with to keep it sane. It's pretty hard to predict exactly where it would take Koggy. Losing 160 auto-range would be a pretty big deal. And I suspect bumping Koggy back up to 750 range probably wouldn't be wise. Recall, the reason why he usually gets nerfed is because of abuse at the Pro level. That extra 40 range would be huge there. The goal of this proposed change is to make Kog less of a 'pros only' pick.

However! I still want to thank you for pitching your input. Getting any real meaningful discussion going regarding Koggy can be difficult.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

While that is true, Kog'maw has higher natural AS and better AS scaling. His damage output is hard for Jinx to match, unless it's one of the people who build Runaan's on her for multiple rockets (which, while very powerful in clusters, usually only works very well against minions/monsters).

Also, Jinx doesn't do as well as Kog'maw with BotRK.

In any event, they're both pretty similar ADCs. The main difference is that Kog'maw doesn't have innate tools for holding back gap closers, while Jinx has her E.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

While that is true, Kog'maw has higher natural AS and better AS scaling. His damage output is hard for Jinx to match, unless it's one of the people who build Runaan's on her for multiple rockets (which, while very powerful in clusters, usually only works very well against minions/monsters).

Very, very true. Jinx isn't going to match Koggy's single target damage barring some pretty silly situations (see, Hurricane nonsense). IF Jinx is hitting more than one target with Fishbones' splash she's contributing more to the team fight. I would argue that she's quite a bit better at cleaning up, too (ZAP! slow, rocket, EXCITED! speed, ect).

Also, Jinx doesn't do as well as Kog'maw with BotRK.

Also true! Jinx would be better off going for stupid AoE IE crits, all things considered.

In any event, they're both pretty similar ADCs. The main difference is that Kog'maw doesn't have innate tools for holding back gap closers, while Jinx has her E.

Right. She has some degree of self peel, stronger lane presence, better pushing potential, stronger team fight presence (again, assuming she's hitting more than one target) and is just all around a stronger pick in a much wider set of situations. The reason I'm pitching this set of changes to Koggy's W is to help further distinguish him from Jinx so that she's isn't trampling his role quite so much.

Immobile tank-busting artillery platform is a cool niche for a champion. I just want to see Koggy slipping more firmly into that role. Preferably in a way that won't cause him to get MOAR NERFS because some random pro played him for three games in LCS and did pretty good.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

The only problem with the suggestion is that all Marksmen work off of dealing multiple attacks over time. Changing his W to a single, ultra-long range attack attack gives him more artillery power, sure; if the cooldown is too long, it's basically pointless in a fight unless they're letting you poke them (or you're taking a final pot-shot for the kill), and if the cooldown is too short, it's the longest-range targeted burst spell in the game, capable of crits and %HP damage.

It sucks that Jinx is able to do Kog's thing worse, but so much safer that the offensive difference isn't noticed. I honestly have no clue how I'd fix it.

ofart1 votes

{quoted}

Mentions Jinx's AA range, but entirely forgets that +10% total AD =/= +6% of target's max HP.

In no way am I stating that Kog'maw is fine as is, but you're definitely overlooking the benefits of hybrid and %HP DPS on Kog'maw.

If Jinx had the same AS as Kog, I'd definitely prefer a TOGGLE high range mode with AoE crits. and 10% bonus AD. Once you get LW, it's better to have everything be AD anyway. Hybrid damage is only good in the early-mid game. It's why you don't see even champs like Kayle build hybrid anymore.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Except Jinx and Kog'maw do not have the same AS.

Jinx has a base 0.625, and her total growth bonus at level 18 is +17%, for a level 18 AS of 0.731 without items, as her gatling form AS bonus does not apply to her rockets.

Kog'maw has a base 0.665, and his total growth bonus at level 18 is +45.1%, and his Q passively grants +30% AS, for a level 18 AS of 1.164 without items.

Kog'maw has a higher innate AS and benefits more from AS than Jinx, unless she is in her short-range gatling mode.

ofart1 votes

{quoted}

Except Jinx and Kog'maw do not have the same AS.

Jinx has a base 0.625, and her total growth bonus at level 18 is +17%, for a level 18 AS of 0.731 without items, as her gatling form AS bonus does not apply to her rockets.

Kog'maw has a base 0.665, and his total growth bonus at level 18 is +45.1%, and his Q passively grants +30% AS, for a level 18 AS of 1.164 without items.

Kog'maw has a higher innate AS and benefits more from AS than Jinx, unless she is in her short-range gatling mode.

"If Jinx had the same AS as Kog..." implies they do not. Your whole post is arguing something that no one questioned and is already accepted.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Then, why would you bring up the point, "If they had the same AS," when you already are aware that they do not?

Are you also going to say, "If Dr. Mundo had Volibear's passive," or, "If Caitlyn had Cho'gath's base AD," or any other hypothetical situations?

Rebonack1 votes

For those who have voted No in the poll, would you mind explaining your position?

Rest assured 'it would make him too weak!' isn't on the table. This change would require buffs somewhere pretty much without question. More properly, why do you think that his current W active is fun/compelling when compared to a more nuanced ability as suggested in this topic?

ofart1 votes

The reason is simple:

"Mentions Jinx's AA range, but entirely forgets that +10% total AD =/= +6% of target's max HP."

The comment implies that +10% total AD and the AoE crits. are inferior. I argue that it's only inferior early-mid until you get LW and a lot of AD + crit..

ofart1 votes

I voted no because until I have a clearer picture of compensation buffs or interesting interactions on Q/E/R, it isn't convincing. I would also like a more interesting system than oh and you press W to hit them from higher range once. It could be based on charges like Corki's ult. and perhaps provide some sort of de-buff.

LambKin1 votes

Do you presume to remove my arms good sir? I rather like my left one for an unmentionable reason.

Rebonack1 votes

The only problem with the suggestion is that all Marksmen work off of dealing multiple attacks over time.

Not all of them.

Think of it more like a Mystic Shot without the base damage, a bit less range, and targeted rather than a super-low cooldown missile.

But yes, the cooldown would be pretty important. It might actually be interesting to give it a fairly low cooldown, but have a compounding mana cost akin to Koggy's Ult. That would go really well with a 'Bonus damage OnHit based on %Missing Mana' Innate. Or, just to spitball some numbers, 14/11/8/5/2 seconds. That would put you at 1.2 seconds if you maxed out CDR. 25% cooldown reduction would put you at just the right spot for procing Spellblade at will, which is always nice.

Basically, the goal would be to have the level 5 W serve as a point of meaningful choice for the Koggy player. Do I want to move in close and get better DPS, or do I want to hang back where it's safe and pelt folks with W? Obviously I don't have the ability to fine tune something like that. I'm willing to bet that getting the number right would require a change like this going Live and letting the community fiddle with it to see if it is over or undertuned.

EDIT!

The feeling I'm getting here is that folks are just cautious because they aren't sure what buffs would come along with this change.

GOOD!

I don't think this suggested W active change would be sufficient to make up for the loss in power that Koggy would suffer in losing his +210 range steroid. Actual buffs to Koggy are a bit beyond the scope of this thread. Would the new W apply increased %HP damage? Would Koggy get a bitchin' new Innate that actually synergizes with his kit? Would he get some of his Ult base damage back or his Q AP ratio un-nerfed?

I have no idea!

The purpose of this topic is mostly just to see how much Koggy players are attached to the least interactive part of Koggy's kit, the part of his kit that offers by far the most power with the least meaningful gameplay attached. The impression that I'm getting is that folks would be worried that if such a change were made that Koggy wouldn't get the right sort of buffs as compensation. I can understand that fear, a lotta players have been feeling burned with some of the recent remakes.

Though most of all? Most of all we need a Red to pop in and talk to us about Koggy. He's languishing down in the top ten least picked range with a sub-fifty percent win rate. Given that Koggy is supposed to be a potent niche pick, that low win rate combined with the low pick rate is a bad sign. Ideally Koggy should be really strong when he gets picked into situations where he can do well, but that doesn't seem to be happening right now. If he's doing poorly even when he gets picked to his strengths then that means he simply isn't doing his job.

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