What exactly is Zed's weakness?

LZkkKD0Giz··43 votes·10,697 views

He's the mid lane assassin with long-ranged wave clear and energy for a resource. He has all the reward and none of the risk. If he's behind, he can farm up from his side of the lane. If he's ahead, he will keep W>Q chunking your health from a safe distance over, and over, and over again. If he's way ahead, he can go all-in, and disengage just as easily if things go rough. Why does he have so many safety nets? Why does he have AoE wave clear? Please, Riot, give Zed a meaningful weakness in lane if you're going to make him a nigh inescapable assassin late. No one can fight him right now.

Even if he can't engage in combat, he will just splitpush all game with his 300-AD build and ghostblade. What is his weakness besides absolutely retarded burst?

125 Comments

ThePlasticSpork33 votes

His weakness is that his actual 100-0ing combo is weaker than just about every non-Kha'Zix assassin in the early game. It used to be that mana champions in the midlane could pretty much become resourceless by building a single item, which allowed them to circumvent Zed's current main advantage. In most cases, mages actually had better waveclear and poke than Zed. Technically speaking, that's still true, but they no longer have the mana to fuel it in lane.

You'll note that Zed was actually in quite a bit of a slump before the mana regen changes. The truth was that before the regen changes, it was a common complaint that there wasn't anybody Zed could fight. Exhaust was popular in the mid lane at the time, which screwed him over before he even had to start dealing with Zhonyas, Mercurial, and things like that. Because most mana users in the mid lane were essentially resourceless after building a single item and had stronger poke and waveclear, Zed was well on his way to actually being one of the many champions that the forums were regularly QQing about being too weak.

Then the mana regen changes happened and suddenly Zed doesn't have weaknesses anymore. His relatively weak 100-0 is now completely counteracted by the fact that he can simply poke the other person to a low enough health where his weaker combo doesn't matter. The other person's mana pool simply won't keep up like they used to.

WhiteFireOCN25 votes

THIS

Don't nerf Zed, simply buff mana regen.

It's not that Zed is or was OP, it's that everything around him is now UP

VardenSalad5 votes

This exact situation is the cause of just about anything considered OP in today's game: removal of competition.

WhiteFireOCN9 votes

Exactly. Some may call a mana buff "power creep", but it's only creeping back to the balanced state that it was already in.

Mana champions have no chance against energy champions anymore, there's no reason not to play Zed LeeSin

killd0zer3 votes

Mana champions have no chance against energy champions anymore

But that's just false.

Lissandra is one of the best Mages in the game, she has pretty steep mana problems.

Kitten of Evil12 votes

She has a passive which mitigates that a lot. There is a reason why some of the strongest mages currently are Xerath, Liss, and Malzahar -- they are strong against assassins and they all have ways to regain mana or avoid spending it.

VardenSalad3 votes

In my opinion, it's not so much about the mitigating mana. It's the ability to push back against early pushes without wasting your whole mana pool. If it was just about being strong against assassins and ignoring mana, Morde would be godlike.

Zed and Yasuo, back when Yas was really big midlane, were notorious for shoving into most midlane champs extremely hard early, using their mana-less skills to push the wave and put the opposing laner on the back foot. I think Xerath's resurgence in high-level play (then competitive from there) is the result of needing not only safe, but extremely hard counter-waveclear, to avoid getting behind early.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Yeah, it's that as well, but the only reason Xeraths, Lissandras, Malzahars can counter-waveclear is because they are pushing with skills, but their skills either restore mana or occasionally cost nothing.

Yasuo is in a fine spot now, imo, but Zed still has the problem of way too easy wave-clear.

Baron of Bread2 votes

Just saying, but Morde is god like.

Saying as someone who loves to play Morde.

ExecutorDill1 votes

That's what I said! Also Kassadin

Zeyphel1 votes

[deleted]

The Oasis1 votes

I don't think he's saying Kassadin counters Zed, just that he doesn't have mana problems in lane and is a fairly strong pick right now.

Knight SoIaire 4 votes

well i dont agree

the entire concept of mana is to gate innately strong kits from abusing stuff

remember pre rework rengar ? he could win any lane ... why? because he could max bola and poke you for free for hours, or he could go for q when he could kill you, anyway lack of mana allowed him to abuse skills

every resource is placed on a champion for a reason ... mana regen was negating the reason that mana was placed on those champs, so it got nerfed

the thing is that riot didnt think about the impact it will have on manaless midlaners (mid lane was the only lane using mana regen to such an extent)

so akali zed and stuffs started showing their fangs

so instead of rewersing the nerfs riot needs to follow up on them with changes that even the odds

Smitemuffin3 votes

That's utterly false. Zed can flat-out assassinate tanks, which is why he's such a late-game splitpush menace in the LCS. They play a tank top, he dives it, kills it, Rs back out.

And burst isn't his weakness, he's able to dodge most of it by ulting and escaping play. Spells like say, Brand's Pyroclasm, just get annihilated by him popping R

ThePlasticSpork3 votes

I love the deliberately huge exaggeration, but I'll address you seriously anyway.

If Zed is so strong that he can assassinate tanks, just take Zed top. Hit 6. Press R on the enemy laner when they have more than ~50% health. You will fail to get the kill every time unless they're not good players.

If Zed's assassination patterns are so super stronk that he can instagib tanks, then why the hell was he experiencing that slump, both in higher and lower ELO games? Furthermore, why did that slump stop specifically when mana regen changes were made that favored him?

AbsoluteSadman1 votes

Lategame, since he tends to build item 3153 item 3035 and item 3142, he can ALMOST kill tanks. not flat out quake headshot them but he can do a good chunk.

Yulen Xoshxius2 votes

Which essentially means they are dead if you include the chances of a team mate nearby.

AbsoluteSadman1 votes

Pretty much, but he cant 420 explode their faces before they can react.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

depends on the tank is he ahead and where did he put his gold ?

AbsoluteSadman1 votes

Can you give me an example of a zed blowing up any tank? :o

Eedat8 votes

His weakness definitely is not the laning phase, but I'll cover that later.

Zeds major weakness is his team fighting. But to be more specific he is weak to certain team comps rather than team fighting in general. Let me explain. In team fights he excels at diving onto a squishy target, blowing them up, and getting out to attack a safer target. He is very squishy himself though. So if he can get CCed in his combo, he's going to get blown up quickly. This makes him pretty vulnerable to point and click or AOE instant CC. Champs like Lissandra, Vi, Annie, Maokai, Sona, Warwick, Galio, Amumu, etc are bad news for Zed. I'm not saying he is helpless in these scenarios, but he definitely needs to keep track of when these things are not on cooldown and when its safe to go in. Even things like a well placed Soraka silence can get him blown up instantly. So as cliche as it sounds, Zed is very weak to hard CC because he is a squishy target that needs to be in the enemy back line to be most effective in a flat out 5v5 team fight.

Lets move on to the laning phase. Theres not a whole lot of champions that hard counter him per se. The real problem with Zed kicked in with the nerfing of mana regen. Traditionally, a lot of mid laners would build Chalice/Grail even versus a Zed just so they could trade back with Zed equally. The nerf to mana regen was when we started seeing Zed become a bit oppressive again. AP mid laners became completely blue buff reliant to be able to harass as much as Zed without going OOM and making themselves vulnerable. The changes made it so Zed could poke down enemy laners more efficiently and they couldn't trade back as often. Another indirect buff to Zed was the removal of DFG. AP assassins could match, if not surpass his burst. So mid lane became a game of who is going to misstep first more or less. If Zed went ulted in for a kill and ate a charm to the face from Ahri, he could just as easily have the tables turned on him (remember, this was when Ahri still had damage amplification on her charm). Zed vs LeBlanc was more or less a skill match up and whoever could juke the most abilities usually won. I could go into how more lane matchups worked, but the key here are these two points. 1) Mana regen nerfs made it difficult for AP mid laners to harass as much as Zed. 2) The removal of DFG removed a lot of ability to burst him back, making his all ins and overall laning safer.

There is one very common item that does limit his burst substantially in a mid lane match up. Of course that is Zhonya's. Popping Zhonyas right before the animation for his ult ends results in the cooldown of his ult being eaten, but the death mark is not applied. Thus making his ult useless. Well, not entirely useless, as the cooldown for Zhonya's is traded for the cooldown of his ult or if the enemy is forced to pop Zhonyas in a vulnerable position where the rest of his team can follow up. This does limit his burst quite a bit between not having the death mark applied and the enemy picking up some armor at the same time. This leaves Zed especially weak to combos like Ahri mid + Lissandra top for example. Zed has to dance around the cooldowns for both Zhonya's and the CC from both champions + whatever CC the rest of the team has at the same time. QSS and Cleanse also scrap his death mark so he can be left as an assasin with no really appealing target. This is kind of a worst case scenario for Zed. Team comps to completely shut Zed down dont really pan out too often like this in soloQ. There also more than 5v5 teamfighting going on during a game, which brings me to my next point.

Zed is amazing for split pushing, 1v1s, and for making picks. 5v5s teamfights dont happen all the time in a normal game. Supports go out to ward, people face check a death bush, people get caught out, split pushing, farming, etc. Zed is one of the best split pushers in the game and great for making picks. He has great waveclear and a very strong 1v1 potential which means if you send just one person to deal with him split pushing a tower, you may lose that member of your team. So the choice is to devote more resources to deal with him which leaves the rest of the map vulnerable. If Zed is split pushing top, and you send 2 people to deal with him, now you have a 3v4 in the mid lane which is dangerous for obvious reasons. If the rest of Zed's team has decent hard engage, you might be on the losing end of a team fight and lose towers/inhibs/dragon/baron. This can also work against his team if you can force a 5v4 fight with Zed in a side lane, not able to join the fight

So to summarize, Zed has a lot of strengths going for him at the moment. A few more strengths than weaknesses. His biggest weaknesses are teamfights against certain comps or being caught out and blown up himself with instant CC. I would say high skill cap is another weakness, but if he's a competent Zed player, that's not really going to help you much. The nerfs to mana regen and removal of DFG were indirect buffs to Zed. He is not by any means unbeatable. Zed is one of the more difficult champions to use. There are many, many different skill levels of Zed. If you are up against a competent Zed, you may be in for a bit of trouble, but just remember he is not unbeatable. Players at all skill levels still make mistakes. Zeds high skill cap means that even good Zed players will inevitably make mistakes. Recognizing and exploiting these mistakes will make you a better player. Punish him when you can. He is still a bit vulnerable being a melee champ. He can't use his abilities to instantly clear a wave at low levels so he will have to go in for some auto attacks. If you know his clone is on cooldown, don't be afraid to harass him. And above all else, know when to back if he pokes you low. Zed is definitely not the champion you want to feed a few early kills. Your team will agree, trust me.

Thats about all for me. I'm sure I forgot a few things along the way but hopefully this gets you pointed in the right direction. Sorry for the typos, I'm sure there's quite a few

SEKAI11 votes

Zeds major weakness is his team fighting.

No one expects assassins to have teamfighting ability to begin with, so stating that as pretty much his only weakness is kinda redundant.

I would imagine his problem is either his counter is not accessible or not a great choice in general, which needs to be addressed. Still his major issues is him being good in 1 shotting while remaining completely safe, also at the same time he does everything perfectly from cs to no resource (he might as well be no resource), to infinite poking harasses and safety + mobility.

I would say high skill cap is another weakness

No, it's a Strength, not a "weakness". Why would you intentionally want your kit to be more limiting and smaller if all it takes is extra few games to get something better and versatile? No.

ladention1 votes

No one expects assassins to have teamfighting ability to begin with, so stating that as pretty much his only weakness is kinda redundant.

Yasuo and Katarina are both assassins with amazing teamfight potential and single target assassinations.

SEKAI2 votes

There are like 30 assassins in the game if we include both primary and secondary, just counting the primary alone it is like 15.

Only like 4 in total have the teamfight thing going for them, assassins Can have TF potential, but it's NOT something we Expect from assassins.

Hence it's simply labeled as assassin's default drawback, instead of individual champion's "weakness".

And Yasuo isn't exactly an assassin, if anything that's his secondary role.

Sailor Mint6 votes
  • Terrible at teamfighting.
  • No ranged waveclear (the useful in a siege kind).
  • His poke and waveclear is tied to his disengage ability (W).
  • Common Itemization (i.e.: Zhonya's and QSS) ruins his burst.
  • Squishy and extremely susceptible to crowd control, shields and heals.

There's more to the game than the laning phase. Especially when his kill threat takes a massive hit once Seeker's Armguard is completed.

He's nearly useless in a siege situation and gets relegated to being a split pusher. Zed wants to pick people off, kill their turret then gtfo. If his team is losing, he suffers the same fate as all other pick oriented assassins and split pushers.

LZkkKD0Giz17 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devi Freak Mint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KG16MifG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-04T04:12:20.328+0000)

Terrible at teamfighting.

  • No ranged waveclear.

rofl

Martyrofsand19 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devi Freak Mint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KG16MifG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-04T04:12:20.328+0000)

  • Terrible at teamfighting.
  • No ranged waveclear.
  • His poke and waveclear is tied to his disengage ability (W).
  • Common Itemization (i.e.: Zhonya's and QSS) ruins his burst.
  • Squishy and extremely susceptible to crowd control, shields and heals.

There's more to the game than the laning phase. Especially when his kill threat takes a massive hit once Seeker's Armguard is completed.

He's nearly useless in a siege situation and gets relegated to being a split pusher. Zed wants to pick people off, kill their turret then gtfo. If his team is losing, he suffers the same fate as all other pick oriented assassins and split pushers.

Only gonna address the bolded because I get tired of people preaching this crap. No champions that can instantly delete one of an enemy teams 2 primary sources of damage, while doing a decent amount of AoE damage to anyone trying to stop him, is bad at team fighting. You, and everyone else with a brain, knows that given the choice between a champ that will instantly delete 1 champion and another champions that will do some AoE to the enemy frontline you will pick the guy who deletes the 1 target every damn time because that leaves you with a 4v5 advantage and makes the fight easy from there.

People that want to preach "assassins can't team fight" bull crap just need to stop it's a blatant lie and no one is buying it.

Sailor Mint7 votes

Nobody should ever die to Zed without getting caught out of position. QSS/Zhonya's/Exhaust/Shields/Heals/CC pretty much guarantee that nobody will die if Zed isn't horribly fed (which is a different issue completely).

Zed doesn't do anything besides split pushing past the 25 min mark and shows up to clean up fights when need be.

How to handle Zed 101: Stick together, CC and kill him. It even reduces the damage dealt by Death Mark!

Martyrofsand13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devi Freak Mint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KG16MifG,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-03-04T04:23:15.640+0000)

Nobody should ever die to Zed without getting caught out of position. QSS/Zhonya's/Exhaust/Shields/Heals/CC pretty much guarantee that nobody will die if Zed isn't horribly fed (which is a different issue completely).

Zed doesn't do anything besides split pushing past the 25 min mark and shows up to clean up fights when need be.

How to handle Zed 101: Stick together, CC and kill him. It even reduces the damage dealt by Death Mark!

Oh right that explains why all those pros have such a hard team dealing with him in team fights when he jumps into a 5v5 and insta-gibbs their ADC or APC, it's all because that should never happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzW0a1ZzMUU

2:29 take a nice look as Zed finds himself in 3v1 against Vi, Lee, and Ziggs just to get a kill and get out...but but Zed has to catch someone out.

Again at 4:25 we see Zed jumping in a 3v5, when his team is down, just to blow up Cait and get out, when Cait jumps back into the middle of her Thresh/Ziggs...all those things sure meant something with how fast he blew her up. Unsurprising with Zed blowing up Cait and doing a lot of AoE to Ziggs TSM was able to finish off Ziggs with Shyvana and turn that into a win...but you know Zed doesn't team fight well.

At 6:30 we see a case in which Zed doesn't get the kill on Cait, because of her buying a QSS, so that should mean he was irrelevant right? Oh wait except no because he did so much damage to both Cait, who was near dead, and Vi who he put to 50% HP the rest of his team picks up Vi and Cait is completely forced away from the fight resulting in Thresh going down as the rest of the team just walks away...but your right Zed does nothing for team fights.

At 7:35 we see TSM doing baron and the enemy team on the other side of the wall. Zed jumps over the baron wall, into the middle of Thresh/Vi/Lee, kills Vi and escapes, ensuring his team get's baron...but your right Zed has to catch someone and can't fight in the middle of the enemy team.

At 7:55 we see a team fight break out and the combined AoE of Shyvana/Leona/Zed completely obliterates Cait/Lee/Thresh(although thresh barely survives) out of the team fight in a matter of seconds...but again Zed has no team fight.

This is just one pro game and yet we can see clearly several times in which Zed completely dominates team fights not only because of his ability to explode a single target but also because of his high AoE damage via Q and E and his shadows. Trying to act like Zed doesn't team fight well is just ignorant at this point, no one is buying it.

Sailor Mint3 votes

Are you really using a Season 4 Spring Split game (Patch 3.15) between a bottom tier team (EG) and TSM to prove your point?

Pretty sure that was Pobelter's second LCS game ever.

Martyrofsand7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devi Freak Mint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KG16MifG,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-04T06:21:10.557+0000)

Are you really using a Season 4 Spring Split game (Patch 3.15) between a bottom tier team (EG) and TSM to prove your point?

Pretty sure that was Pobelter's second LCS game ever.

I was actually using one of the first non-30minute vids that popped up when I typed "lcs zed" into youtube. Feel free to browse around you will find a top of pro level zeds across all patches showing the exact same thing. The myth of weak team fighting when a champ can instantly delete another is a flat out lie.

LZkkKD0Giz4 votes

{quoted}

Oh right that explains why all those pros have such a hard team dealing with him in team fights when he jumps into a 5v5 and insta-gibbs their ADC or APC, it's all because that should never happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzW0a1ZzMUU

2:29 take a nice look as Zed finds himself in 3v1 against Vi, Lee, and Ziggs just to get a kill and get out...but but Zed has to catch someone out.

Again at 4:25 we see Zed jumping in a 3v5, when his team is down, just to blow up Cait and get out, when Cait jumps back into the middle of her Thresh/Ziggs...all those things sure meant something with how fast he blew her up. Unsurprising with Zed blowing up Cait and doing a lot of AoE to Ziggs TSM was able to finish off Ziggs with Shyvana and turn that into a win...but you know Zed doesn't team fight well.

At 6:30 we see a case in which Zed doesn't get the kill on Cait, because of her buying a QSS, so that should mean he was irrelevant right? Oh wait except no because he did so much damage to both Cait, who was near dead, and Vi who he put to 50% HP the rest of his team picks up Vi and Cait is completely forced away from the fight resulting in Thresh going down as the rest of the team just walks away...but your right Zed does nothing for team fights.

At 7:35 we see TSM doing baron and the enemy team on the other side of the wall. Zed jumps over the baron wall, into the middle of Thresh/Vi/Lee, kills Vi and escapes, ensuring his team get's baron...but your right Zed has to catch someone and can't fight in the middle of the enemy team.

At 7:55 we see a team fight break out and the combined AoE of Shyvana/Leona/Zed completely obliterates Cait/Lee/Thresh(although thresh barely survives) out of the team fight in a matter of seconds...but again Zed has no team fight.

This is just one pro game and yet we can see clearly several times in which Zed completely dominates team fights not only because of his ability to explode a single target but also because of his high AoE damage via Q and E and his shadows. Trying to act like Zed doesn't team fight well is just ignorant at this point, no one is buying it.

It's like saying Talon is weak at teamfighting because he can only obliterate 1 player on the enemy team.

Zed can do the same and get out alive. Rofl.

Kat Head6 votes

A lack of skins really keeps this champ down. If his laugh was not so op then he would probably have more skins, I agree with all of you nerf zeds laugh.

Stars Shaper6 votes

When ppl picking him are Bad. This is his weakness.

(Not meant to say he is OP or anything, I just see it this way)

SEKAI3 votes

That's a TERRIBLE design choice in a pseudo - RTS game like LoL imho, since it's something you'd expect from fighting games.

If LoL is meant to be balanced like a fighting game, why do we even have game phases, cs, item sets, mastery & runes, team comp, resource, buffs and whatever? That's kinda counter intuitive.

LZkkKD0Giz6 votes

I like how people state that itemization and "cleanse" counter him. Cleanse doesn't even negate his ult, so that shows you just how much research they put into the debate. Zhonya's costs 3100 gold, and is extremely binary. Either you have it and you make him obsolete, or you don't and you die to him under your own turret. QSS is meaningless to rush early game, and is only effective late, when Zed has 300+ AD and can burst people without his ult proc anyway.

Need I remind you that Zed gives 0 shits as to what he goes up against? He doesn't have to alter his built in any way to counter you, while you have to go out of your way and build all this expensive shit just to have a chance at killing him.

Fed by Snu Snu4 votes

None.

And he gets to keep all the power that Kha'Zix has been nerfed for repeatedly in the past, being called "healthy" on top of that as well.

If I was a Kha'zix main I'd be seriously pissed with Riot's treatment to Zed to be honest.

Serge THE GREAT3 votes

Malphite

And yes I'm aware that's not a good answer.

The actual full answer is: none that aren't expensive. And if it's armor and health, he just shreds you with armor pen.

Troy2426213 votes

Ban phase.

agbudar2 votes

when all the zed/fizz/kass mains came together and removed rammus 3 second taunt

is when zed became a little stronger

when tanks fell out of favor in the jungle

thats when zed became op.

its not just the mages that got hammered that causes zed to be so overbearing.

actually i had a pretty easy time with champs like rammus to counter him. now you can't for the life of you clear a fukin jungle pack with rammus or hold him down long enough for that slow poke mage to come out of hiding in the corner of fear.

SaltLord4512 votes

JannaJanna Janna Janna Janna Janna Lulu

ForgiveColour1 votes

same weakness as annie

Martyrofsand27 votes

{quoted}

same weakness as annie

Like the mana cost...oh wait Like the low range...oh wait Like the lack of mobility...oh wait Like the AAs that tickle...oh wait

Totally same weaknesses.

LZkkKD0Giz9 votes

{quoted}

Like the low range...oh wait

Totally same weaknesses.

Actually I grew to respect Annie's AA range.

Martyrofsand4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Commando Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KG16MifG,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-03-04T05:51:22.890+0000)

Actually I grew to respect Annie's AA range.

Her AA range is long, everything else is short as hell. Play Annie against Xerith/Orianna/Azir/Zed or any other long range champ with ranged poke and tell me about how you respect her range.

Malix Farwin6 votes

{quoted}

Her AA range is long, everything else is short as hell. Play Annie against Xerith/Orianna/Azir/Zed or any other long range champ with ranged poke and tell me about how you respect her range.

The key difference is that annie weaknesses are very clear while zeds are not

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votes

Annie can also flash into instant stun to kill you. At least you can zhonyas the zed ult. Zed is bullshit, but annie clearly lacks any hint of counterplay, and the only thing keeping her in check is her short range spells.

JevelFaithful2 votes

So she's ultimately ok? She has counterplay in the form that every mage can zone her and her stun is telegraphed and (pick one: ) [single target | pointblank-aoe | on a 2 minute cooldown | longrange but on a 5 minute cooldown]. She is essentially melee as far as mages are concerned. I think that's counterplay enough. Or at least a healthy no-counterplay. I'm of the old school that said that a game can be balanced and fun without counterplay on every champ)

By comparison, I,d tend to call Zed an unhealthy counterplay. (I think we agree on that one)

Junkο1 votes

I stopped playing Annie because her AA range makes it really awkward to get in range to cast your spells, since most other champions do it by right clicking on enemy champion

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