Rework "untargetable"

xLegendary Troll··108 votes·7,024 views

Champions that become "untargetable" should be able to receive damage from AoE spells.

Allow me to explain:

Have you ever played Magic the Gathering? When something is untargetable it means you can't cast anything on it. HOWEVER, AoE spells can still damage the creature because those spells don't technically "target" it.

Shouldn't it be the same here? Fizz jumps on his pole and becomes untargetable. If Brand cast his Pillar of flames, shouldn't the fish get burnt?

Now before you guys down vote this, I said AoE spells. That means single target spells that are skillshots won't have any effect. So in Brands case, his Q and E won't work, but his W can still damage Fizz since he technically never targeted him.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Since there's some confusion on which spells would work; any spell that fully benefits from spell vamp has no effect on someone that's "untargetable".

Champions that leave the screen and come back (Elise, etc) can still maintain their old properties since there's a visual animation that they cannot be reached.

122 Comments

Pinker 1017 votes

Vlad, elise, and fizz get partial invulnerability, so they can't be damaged, except by tethers, dots, and vlad/zed ults. Shaco leaves the map, so good luck hitting that.

Fiora, yi, mao, zed, and reksai take damage after their dash ends.

The rest of the untargetables are also fully invulnerable.

Even were you to succeed in getting an untargetable rework, your aoe spells still would not damage partially invulnerable units.

xLegendary Troll6 votes

Well that's the point. The tool tip says they become untargetable, not invulnerable. Kayle and Tryndamere become invulnerable. It's arguably a different mechanic.

Champions that "flicker" in and out of the battlefield are fine like Elise and Shaco. It seems like making them invulnerable was the lazy approach.

Pinker 108 votes

Shaco's and Kalista's ults are the only ones that flicker out of the map.

Elise's rappel is functionally the same as vlad pool and fizz pole.

If anything, you want a removal of partial invulnerability, not necessarily a rework of untargetable.

Untargetable itself is fine imo, but tooltips should either be clearer so that you don't have to wiki ur champs to see what their abilities ACTUALLY do, or they should just do what the tooltip says, which would probably solve a lot of peoples problems with fizz.

shacos ult makes him flicker, not his q

fix'd

Aurelius Maximus3 votes

shacos ult makes him flicker, not his q

xLegendary Troll5 votes

Elise graphically rappels out of the map.

Shaco and Leblanc flicker in and out when they activate their clones.

master yi graphically disappears then reappears.

Kalista graphically flickers her bound target.

You see what I'm doing? I don't mind the ones that graphically leave the map and enter, because there's a visual cue that they're not there. But fizz, vlad, and mao ARE there, I just can't do anything to them.

Pinker 109 votes

Leblanc is merely stealthed, and can still be hit. Elise remains tethered by leashes and still takes damage from zed/vlad ults ~ just like fizz and vlad. Master yi can be hit with skillshots while dashing, granted its difficult, but he will take damage upon the end of the spell. Same with maokai, and it's a lot easier with mao.

Again, untargetability already largely works the way you want it to.

The only problems you have are using ground targeted spells rather than skillshots, and not fully understanding the different kinds of untargetability.

You mentioned leblanc and she has 0 untargetable mechanics in her kit ~ it's a mini stealth.

Based on that alone, you need to do some research.

Drogmyre6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pinker 10,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K1Xeu7Lg,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2015-01-01T20:26:00.003+0000)

Elise remains tethered by leashes and still takes damage from zed/vlad ults ~ just like fizz and vlad.

Except that tethers/dots/debuffs aren't what OP is talking about.

Master yi can be hit with skillshots while dashing, granted its difficult, but he will take damage upon the end of the spell. Same with maokai, and it's a lot easier with mao.

Except that Yi doesn't give a damn if I damage him, he's coming to kill me in 3 auto attacks and with his Alpha Strike teleporting him on top of my ass it's unlikely I can stop him before he at least gets a hit or two in, and if he does I'm up shit creek.

Maokai doesn't give a fuck about damage. He's the Tree. He gives no fucks that you're wanting to damage him, he just wants to give you a nice big hug so his team can squish you into fertilizer.

Don't act like 'damage' is the only issue with untargetability.

Pinker 105 votes

It's the only one OP is complaining about.

And as for yi there's two very simply solutions.

1: stay with your team, unless 2:you have cc

Maokai's w travels so dam slow that in today's mobility creep if you can't drag him back into your team you're not doing it right. Aside from which, a good ez can hit him with 3 qs for upwards of 1k damage while he's traveling, all dealt when he arrives. And then e out of his range and spam /laugh.

Untargetability as a mechanic is very well balanced in this game. Especially when it's compared to other mobas with the same mechanic.

It's far too weak in HoTs(although they have their own problems, jax dodge 3.0 and other similarly stupid rng mechanics), and it's broken in both iterations of dota.

The only issue with untargetability is unclear labeling on 3 spells.

Nausicäa 12 votes

the only untargetable spell i have a problem with is Fizz's E, mainly because the cooldown on it is so short, it doubles as a gap closer, slows and is his single biggest damage basic ability.

Honestly tho Fizz E could be an ultimate.

bad manner kid5 votes

Rework Fizz pole to be more like Gnar's hop. Don't let Fizz players troll people, give it a fixed duration to allow enough time for the Fizz to travel where they want, and allow single targeted spells to apply if they are already cast.

Fizz's "outplay" potential has no ceiling. Just poling for a certain spell on nearly any champion will make them lose the trade or die. Assassins have to consider anytime they attempt a Fizz kill that depending on his reaction time, he could potentially ignore their QWER (see LeBlanc Q->R->pole the R-> dead LB.)

To have the same overpowered effect that Zhonya's hourglass has every 10 seconds is just** too frustrating to play against. **

As for Yi/Fiora being "temporarily out of the game," that is just lazy and needs to be fixed. They should be invisible but still have a location to be effected by AoE.

Aurelius Maximus3 votes

why though?

It would be a big change for no reason

xLegendary Troll33 votes

To bring counter play options to champions that initiate with an "untargetable" ability like Maokai, fizz and master yi. Seriously, how can you stop Mao's W? You can't. With this at least AoE displacements like Syndra and Draven's E can be used for something else to compensate for their lack of mobility

Aurelius Maximus11 votes

there is counterplay, but most people don't understand it's just less direct.

Here is an example, yi vs syndra

Yi runs in, waits for you to stun, then q's

OR

Yi runs in, you hold your stun and he is either forced to q bc he needs the damage and then gets stunned, never q, or q early and get rocked.

Gotta think differently

xLegendary Troll21 votes

Yeah but you're missing the point.

If you held your stun, you still took damage from the initial Q. What if you were at 10% hp? If a skill shot is thrown at you, you can flash or use your characters mobility to dodge it.

There is nothing you can do to Yi but tank the damage first. You know his Q can critical? Let's use fizz as a better example since you can flash out of his E skillfully.

The point I was trying to make is that it gives players more options when dealing with these "cheesy" champions. There's a new opportunity to outplay your opponent. Fizz can just Q then E away all game.

Rew7114 votes

I hate how Fiora's ultimate is untargetable and deals more damage (directly) but Zac's ultimate deals only so much and must be used just right (and is targetable).

I also hate that Lissandra can protect herself from everything and deal damage like crazy.

But when you give Shen a teleport that works on only champions, he HAS to be targetable.

But I will say, Vladimir will also get some counter play for his W but Zed will still have trouble because his ultimate is a single target spell, BUT he does sacrifice 25% HP... hm

KirstyAlter1 votes

It's only 20% health for Vladimir blood-pool.

kijik3 votes

20% CURRENT HP lets not forget that, so under all circumstances where vlad would normally troll pool it costs like 50hp.

Junkο2 votes

Well Zac also knockups every nearby enemy once and is tanky.

Burungeru1 votes

You hate that a damage dealer deals more damage than a tank? Man, league must be rough for you. Also, throwing this out there, Vladimir also regains his life extremely quickly by using his Q. He also isn't limited by energy.

You're picking awful champions to compare to each other.

Junkο2 votes

Well Yi completely disappears from the map for the duration of his Q (no really, when Yi Qs, you will lose vision of him if you are an ally). Same for Zed. But to others it would be nice counterplay yea.

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

League of Legends is not Magic the Gathering.

I know exactly to what you are referring--if you can't target it, nuke everything and it's bound to go away--but adding a mechanic because it makes sense in another game, rather than because of balance, is going to upset balance.

You already have counter-play options for Untargetable. Besides, if this was how it worked, Vladimir would be screwed over hardcore.

xLegendary Troll5 votes

If anything this IS creating balance. Vlad' troll pool was meant to be used offensively, that's why it has a slow.

It makes perfect sense in this game. You mind explaining to me the options I have as Mao presses W on me?

JustMyBassCannon6 votes

Considering it was recently nerfed to 525 range, don't walk up and face-tank Maokai?

I'd like you to tell any Vladimir player to their face that Sanguine Pool is meant to be used offensively, and see if they'll take you seriously after saying that.

Kuroi863 votes

Oh good grief... I just had the stupid idea to come up with an offensive Sanguine build.

Shoot me now please before I do something stupid. -_-

Kuroi863 votes

Sadly no, Sanguine pool really isn't effective as an offensive ability. The damage is so that you need to build massive amounts of health and item 3151 for it's damage to really be that great. The only offensive approach to Sanguine pool is if you've just dropped your R,E,Q and decide to pool to stick with them while your E,Q comes back up.

Why it has a slow, I don't even know.

Raptamei2 votes

[{quoted}](name=xLegendary Troll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K1Xeu7Lg,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-01T20:50:24.669+0000)

It makes perfect sense in this game. You mind explaining to me the options I have as Mao presses W on me?

Well, according to your original post, your option is to 1/ pick a champion with an AoE 2/ die anyway.

All you're doing is giving people the ability to hard counterpick Fizz without actually nerfing him in most matchups. Soraka would probably shit on Fizz because he can't jump down and then eats a meteor.

Sammystorm2 votes

What counterplay does becoming untargetable exactly have in this game?

It does logically make sense. If Fizz hops onto his pole a giant fucking snowstorm from anivia would still hurt or a giant piller of fire would still land. However doing things because it makes sense logically isn't always very good for balance. For example: logic tells us that cait and graves should be 2 of the better champions in the game because they have guns. However they are comparable to champs with bows and swords which is fine even though it breaks logic.

TrentBatNA3 votes

Fizz's pole is actually magic, so when he is on his pole, a mirror image is made. But the actual Fizz is in another dimension, only to return after 0.75 seconds or when he wants to.

Learn343 votes

As someone who plays Magic, I can point out that comparing the game play of the two games is a bad idea. That said, "untargetable" is more like "Protection from sources your opponents control." And that's always how it's been intended. To really have an informed discussion, each such ability needs to be looked at individually, just as any one magic card must be looked at in terms of the associated spell effects, permanent abilities/p/t, cost, and whether or not it's on the banned or restricted lists for a given format. But even then, the balancing mechanics present in LoL and Magic are vastly different from one another.

KwangoTango2 votes

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xLegendary Troll2 votes

Well zhonya's says the person becomes "invulnerable". Since it's a niche item, zhonya can keep those properties. It also says they become "untargetable". Maybe they have something planned in the future for it already?

Learn342 votes

Pretty sure the wording on that thing hasn't changed since it's inception. Tool-tips in LoL are notoriously shitty.

YOU BEEN WARNED2 votes

I agree IMO all champions with untargetability are broken except elise who was overnerfed for a good cause.

5 Stacks GG1 votes

elise is broken, she need rework and never be buffed in its current state

exiledFromBadmen2 votes

Listen to him. Elise isn't good anymore and needs a quick rework.

KirstyAlter2 votes

Definitely agree with this, there should be some counter-play against being untargettable, its ridiculous.

Wolfeur2 votes

What I hate about Fizz is his capacity to completely deny a global 160s cooldown ult with a 8s cooldown spell.

Ayame Isaki4 votes

Fizz is not the only one who can do this *cough*Yasuo*cough*

Wolfeur2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ayame Isaki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K1Xeu7Lg,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2015-01-02T13:51:48.828+0000)

Fizz is not the only one who can do this *cough*Yasuo*cough*

Well, Yasuo's Wind wall is very powerful but also has a 18s cooldown and only blocks projectiles (And doesn't deal damage nor allow go to through walls).

Ayame Isaki1 votes

It's not just projectiles... I laned against Yasuo last night as Akali and his wind wall absolutely stops Q, E, and R (and possibly auto attacks). He was a huge fan of letting me get in close, eating a Q proc on my R, and walling between us.

blacknerdtaku1 votes

E is not a ranged attack on Akali so im assuming it's just a bug, i did see people complaining about him blocking melee attacks.

also your R should definitely not be blocked by the wall

Ayame Isaki2 votes

I thought for sure he blocked an R but now that I think about it I think he always used it after my R.

Wolfeur3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ayame Isaki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K1Xeu7Lg,comment-id=0015000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-02T15:19:45.048+0000)

It's not just projectiles... I laned against Yasuo last night as Akali and his wind wall absolutely stops Q, E, and R (and possibly auto attacks). He was a huge fan of letting me get in close, eating a Q proc on my R, and walling between us.

That's weird... wind wall only stops projectiles, nothing else.

God Mode Enabled2 votes

I can see this being a great idea until people realize amumu would single handedly shut every one of these champions down with his ult allowing for the most cheesy / godly setups.

amumu would literally become the most top tier champion along with malphite if this went into effect

the better option is people making better plays, knowing their enemys strengths and weaknesses and adjusting to that

Jesus is Savior2 votes

the only thing that should change about "untargetable" is that my champ should still follow them when they become untargetable, and attempt to attack them when they become targetable.

Chasing a Fizz? Better spam right click, or you'll immediately walk backwards when he presses his trollpole.

Trying to kill a Yi in a teamfight? Well you'll immediately target someone else as soon as he presses Q, even if he's teleporting to an ally right beside you. Or heck, even if he's targeting YOU.

Wuju Lord2 votes

yeah, here's a thought. When fizz bounces up on his staff, it theoretically would have him jump over an ezreal q. Fair enough. However, he logically shouldn't be able to dodge a lux or ezreal ult that way. Those are freakin' huge beams, and its not like he stops existing while he jumps. He's just kinda hangin out there.

Even for master yi Q or Fiora Ult, they don't really stop existing, they are just, in theory, moving too fast for the camera to be able to track, so they look invisible. But again, they don't stop existing, so the AOE should hit. I agree completely.

Gunpoint2 votes

DoT is good enough for me. You can always just hit Fizz on his way down anyway. In addition to this, it makes sense for a 3 dimensional spell like Brands Pillar of flames, but now think Swain's aoe snare. It just doesn't make much sense to me. Fizz isn't the only one that can go untargetable either. Elise's rappel makes her untargetable but she's not even on the screen so you and her can't really tell what is hitting her. Other examples include Zed and Vlad. Vlad's model is turned into a huge circle of blood, does that mean his hitbox for aoe abilities would suddenly be unreasonably large? Magic the Gathering is a card game, they don't have to visually show abilities hitting things, League does. If Fizz was hit by pillar of flames while he was on his pole, then yes it would appear it did damage, but there's no point in making an acception just because it appears that he could have gotten hit by it. Essentially this thread is "nerf fizz's untargetability."

Elemon1 votes

This is basically what I was thinking... I don't exactly have a comprehensive mental lit that I can summon up at any time, but Fizz is the only person that I can think of that becomes untargetable without leaving the battlefield (disappearing in a pool of magic blood counts) other than Zhonyas, which would be stupid if it didn't protect you from AoE (you enter stasis and become immune to everything; you don't dodge anything in the first place). Basically, all that this would do is nerf Fizz in a very selective way...

Also, fun fact: For some reason, Veigar's Event Horizon still affects Fizz when he's on his troll pole...

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

I like it, gives a counter to moves like Fizz and his troll poll but still keep the annoying dodge mechanic that we all know and hate. Something I was wondering though if zed ults fizz, then he uses his poll jump, does he dodge zeds ult (I would assume yes... stupid fish -_-)

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