So Morgana's Ulti Works while she is using Zhonya's?

Slushi Simcambi··3 votes·4,607 views

And everyone is okay with this?

She is one of the top picks in botlane and it seems like removing this... lovely feature... could be a reasonable way to trim her down just a little bit. That ulti's cc power and range plus invulnerability seems... rather unnecessarily overpowered on a champ who already has a lot going for her.

Thoughts? Or would this totally make Morgana unplayable...

edit- Think about this, if her ult revolves around the use of a singular item, then can that really be considered healthy champion design? If it is that integral to her ult it should be a component in the first place. A champions identity should lie in their kit, not the stuff they buy.

49 Comments

Kazukes5 votes

If you take that away from her what will mid morgana have left? She already loses about all her damage in a fight if she misses q since nobody is gonna stand in a puddle and you want her ultimate to not work with zhonyas? Play a game as morg and don't purchase a zhonyas, you'll get blown up so quick that 2nd ult proc will never go off.

Epilogue of Life2 votes

That's why you need teamwork...have that friendly Wukong go in and ult before you ult. It's not healthy for an assassin to be able to force fights and then win fights, so mages shouldn't be able to force and win fights either.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

actualy mages can

Raptamei1 votes

{quoted}

If you take that away from her what will mid morgana have left? She already loses about all her damage in a fight if she misses q since nobody is gonna stand in a puddle and you want her ultimate to not work with zhonyas? Play a game as morg and don't purchase a zhonyas, you'll get blown up so quick that 2nd ult proc will never go off.

Morgana is a support, not a mid.

Rilasha2 votes

{quoted}

Morgana is a support, not a mid.

Morgana is a mage mid laner that can also go support as the meta likes. Other champions that fit this description are Zyra and Annie.

Angry Monster4 votes

i really hate when new players come into the game and act like, o i noticed something that i do not like. Maybe everyone was blind to this interaction and it should be removed. I rather you remove your self from the game.

Slushi Simcambi4 votes

Gee, jerks like yourself really enrich the community don't you!

Angry Monster1 votes

^

What you say applies directly to you.

You see all your down votes? I am just the guy that actually posts while down voting.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

I despise when someone has to be a dick on the forums because someone else unacquainted with a particular mechanic is questioning why it exists.

He asked for thoughts, not douchebags.

Angry Monster1 votes

i am tired of new players starting off with i think that X should not be in the game. If the op was smart he would of asked why.

Stop being a white knight. Ignorance is not excuse here.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

I'm not a white knight. Seriously, you could ask anyone who knows me, they'd probably laugh if you told them I was a white knight. That said, I'd rather be called a white knight much more than being the 80-year-old peanut gallery.

What I am is an informant. I believe it is infinitely more useful to explain things. They're ignorant? Let's fix that instead of playing the "I've played the game longer than you, shut the fuck up" card.

Angry Monster1 votes

The op was not asking why. He was not looking to learn. People wanting to learn ask. Those that want to shove there misinformed opinions post like the OP

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

He asked for peoples' thoughts.

He held a very civil discourse with me, explaining one of the reasons he doesn't like this effect (which lead into a whole discussion about the difference between crutch and core items). He didn't effectively say "Fuck you and fuck logic, Morgana player," the generic mantra of players who don't want to learn; he just continued to defend his opinion in a reasonable manner.

Whether or not he took what was said seriously is not my problem. In the end, I got an actual conversation instead of a troll or a 10-year-old, and it's up to him whether he accepts or rejects it.

Angry Monster2 votes

he was asking why, as in a figurative or a polite why. Not where asking a real question

first line

And everyone is okay with this?

obviously not interested in discussion. Borderline attack at the player base as a whole. Another why of phrasing "are you all crazy?" Pretty much the same feeling.

She is one of the top picks in botlane and it seems like removing this... lovely feature... could be a reasonable way to trim her down just a little bit.

Not really a top pick. Nothing is top really right now. The OP is throwing out hyperbole to make a weak point.

That ulti's cc power and range plus invulnerability seems... rather unnecessarily overpowered on a champ who already has a lot going for her.

So much going for her that he can not even list it. What she has going for her no mobility, 1 CC SLOW skill shot(that her kit pretty much centers on), decent damage and spell shield.

Thoughts? Or would this totally make Morgana unplayable...

Again, figurative not asking a real question.

This is the worst line of thoughts even attempted. He completely ignores that Morg's ult needs 2 seconds unleash and she has to walk around to keep people in range. With so much mobility in the game it is easier said than done. If a player Zhonas they are no longer able to move and attempt keeping people in ult range. Most morgs are supports and needs to be pretty fed to get a zhonas.

Can you really say that this guy is trying to think? He lost to a bunch of morgs and rage posted like an idiot. He got everything he deserved in my posts. Just cause someone went the polite route does not mean they are really open to discussion. They are can be acting nice while just looking for blind support (these boards are famous for it). Out side of being internet polite it was a shit post.

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

Saying that a champion's identity should not include purchased items is basically saying, "Core build items shouldn't be a thing."

Tear of the Goddess/Archangel's Staff/Seraph's Embrace is core on Ryze. Infinity Edge is core on Draven/Yasuo. Iceborn Gauntlet is core on Skarner. Blade of the Ruined King is core on Vayne.

Why is it bad that Zhonya's Hourglass is core to Morgana?

Slushi Simcambi1 votes

There is a huge difference to something being core and something being integral to a champion.

Vayne gets life steal and damage from botrk, she gets attack speed, she gets the slow. The difference is, she can get that from other items as well. BotRK isn't necessary for Vayne to function as a champion.

If a champion absolutely needs a certain item for an ability to function the way people think it should in the first place, why shouldn't that ability already provide that function, that way if Riot would want to balance it they could change the length she is invulnerable instead of having to screw with Zhonya's to fix ONE champion.

I guess the primary difference to integral vs. core is one ENHANCES the champion while another FIXES a champion.

BakedLotion2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slushi Simcambi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jw8Np7Vx,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-01-12T04:29:00.845+0000)

There is a huge difference to something being core and something being integral to a champion.

Vayne gets life steal and damage from botrk, she gets attack speed, she gets the slow. The difference is, she can get that from other items as well. BotRK isn't necessary for Vayne to function as a champion.

If a champion absolutely needs a certain item for an ability to function the way people think it should in the first place, why shouldn't that ability already provide that function, that way if Riot would want to balance it they could change the length she is invulnerable instead of having to screw with Zhonya's to fix ONE champion.

I guess the primary difference to integral vs. core is one ENHANCES the champion while another FIXES a champion.

Try playing Yasuo without statik shiv I fucking dare you. You won't do good at all In fact, infinity edge also.

Slushi Simcambi1 votes

Wow super hostile.

Notice I never mentioned Yasuo and you still be cursing at me?

You didn't really read my post so here it goes again, there is a difference between CORE and INTEGRAL. While crit items enhance Yasuo they don't fundamentally change him. There are multiple items to add crit chance and damage and those happen to be the best.

There is nothing wrong with core items, but they should (as I said already) enhance a champion, not fix them.

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slushi Simcambi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jw8Np7Vx,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-01-12T04:29:00.845+0000)

There is a huge difference to something being core and something being integral to a champion.

Core: the central or most important part of something

Integral: necessary to make whole or complete; essential or fundamental

I don't know about you, but being an A-grade English student, at least through high school, gives me the impression that there is no difference between "Core" and "Integral" items.

The term you are looking for is "Crutch" items.

Vayne gets life steal and damage from botrk, she gets attack speed, she gets the slow. The difference is, she can get that from other items as well. BotRK isn't necessary for Vayne to function as a champion.

You can say that as a person who has quite likely never played Vayne, most definitely not enough to have any comprehension of just how much you're missing if you don't build BotRK on Vayne.

Vayne's kit damage scales pretty evenly between AD (because she's a Marksman, and because of Tumble) and AS (because she's a Marksman, and because of Silver Bolts). An offense item with AD and AS is already going to be valuable. Then, it also has Lifesteal. Being the only defensive mechanic that Marksmen tend to use (aside from a tiny bit of resistance if they pick up Mercurial or GA), that immediately makes it even more valuable. The on-hit passive deals %HP damage, very powerfully stacking up with her W. 8% of current HP, plus every 3rd attack dealing 8% of max HP, oh and the weapon has AS, so it's increasing that DPS substantially. The active %HP and %MS steal gives her a nice chase/escape tool aside from Tumble and Condemn.

You would be hard-pressed to name any reason to not build BotRK, or even to find a reason to build something before BotRK outside of extreme circumstances.

If a champion absolutely needs a certain item for an ability to function the way people think it should in the first place, why shouldn't that ability already provide that function, that way if Riot would want to balance it they could change the length she is invulnerable instead of having to screw with Zhonya's to fix ONE champion.

I guess the primary difference to integral vs. core is one ENHANCES the champion while another FIXES a champion.

Except that's not the case.

Zhonya's doesn't "fix" Morgana. She's perfectly capable of using her ultimate without it. Zhonya's grants her the ability to use it and survive in the middle of the enemy team a lot easier, and it's core/integral to her playstyle, but it's not like she can't use her ultimate when Zhonya's is on cooldown. All Zhonya's does is give her an easier way to handle being in the middle of the enemy team; rather than relying on a defense-heavy build and her Spell Vamp, she can use Zhonya's.

Likewise, BotRK doesn't "fix" Vayne. It just amplifies all of her kit strengths to a degree that is far more worthwhile than any other first items.

You want an example of a crutch? Mordekaiser item 3145 Mordekaiser is almost literally non-functional without Spell Vamp. His health costs obliterate his own HP, and the shield's constant, instant decay makes it only worthwhile if someone is actively fighting you while you cast spells. You have to have Spell Vamp, whether runes/masteries or in the aforementioned Revolver, for him to work.

Morgana's strength in the middle of an enemy team is amplified by Zhonya's, but it's not impossible for her to work without its effect. It would be a bad idea to not buy Zhonya's, not because she can't do without it, but because it's such a strong choice, you'd be hard-pressed to find an alternate option worth as much. Core/Integral

Mordekaiser's kit is handicapped in a way that requires him to pick up Hextech Revolver or Spell Vamp through runes/masteries. Crutch

Slushi Simcambi1 votes

The way people are talking they make it sound like Morgana would literally be unplayable without her precious Zhonya's (thereby making it a crutch).

And Yes, the use of Integral vs. Core was just me making up terminology. Crutch would probably be a better word. I also made all A's in English.

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

Think, for a second, if Riot made Statikk Shiv/Infinity Edge unusable specifically for Yasuo. Or what if Fizz was locked out from Lich Bane? How about if Riot just decided that Brand was blocked from Liandry's and/or Rylai's?

Every other champion gets pretty much the same old item with the same effect, but due to some change--or straight-up blocking its usability to them--these specific champions cannot use these specific items.

They still function, but now they are specifically punished, unable to use effects that scale extremely well with their playstyle. It's purposeless favoritism that weakens these champions, "Because reasons!" Instead of designing and balancing these champions around the existence of these items, you're just flipping the bird to the entire portion of the community that enjoys playing that champion.

A specific champion has a kit or a specific ability that works extremely well with a specific item. They can function without it, but a cockroach can also function without it's head.

Raptamei1 votes

{quoted}

Think, for a second, if Riot made Statikk Shiv/Infinity Edge unusable specifically for Yasuo. Or what if Fizz was locked out from Lich Bane? How about if Riot just decided that Brand was blocked from Liandry's and/or Rylai's?

DotDota. Blink dagger on VS.

Kuroi861 votes

Newp, with the right build you can ignore Zhonya's all together. You would be giving up a very good build that not only gives her loads of damage, but also synergizes with her kit better than any other build you can think of. Morgana can function going full utility if need be.

A crutch item is something you HAVE to rush first in order to have a good game.

Skia Asteri1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slushi Simcambi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jw8Np7Vx,comment-id=0006000000010000,timestamp=2015-01-12T04:54:22.291+0000)

The way people are talking they make it sound like Morgana would literally be unplayable without her precious Zhonya's (thereby making it a crutch).

And Yes, the use of Integral vs. Core was just me making up terminology. Crutch would probably be a better word. I also made all A's in English.

To be clear, her ult is useable without item 3157 , but there situations where it allows her ult to be used much better.

ult without hourglass

Direwolfiez1 votes

Jax needs Triforce and BotRK to stick to targets and actually deal enough damage to be useful. Wanna know why that is? It's because that's how Riot wants him to play. If you do not buy those items, you're either going full tank Jax (pretty much useless except for the peeling), or you're a huge noob.

Again, just try playing Morg in PvP without buying Hourglass, and just try telling us that she doesn't need it afterwards.

Moves Like Mugen4 votes

Besides mobility, which she doesn't really seem to need considering the strong cc she has, Morgana doesn't have too many weaknesses in her kit.>

how does having only skillshots besides her ult no weaknesses. you not understanding the game doesnt give you any merit to change it. just because you dont know how to play against a certain item/champ doesnt mean that the entire game should change just for you. zhonyas only lasts 2.5 seconds. If you cant live for 2 and a half seconds or RUN OUT OF HER ULT in 2.5 seconds then maybe league isnt the right game for you. BTW have you ever heard of the summoner ability called flash? it looks like this summoner 4

Slushi Simcambi1 votes

Flash has a way longer CD than her ult so that is irrelevant.

How are non-mobile champs supposed to escape that in a crazy mess of a teamfight?

Direwolfiez2 votes

Gee, I dunno, CC HER OR FLASH AWAY WHEN YOU SEE HER MOVING TOWARDS YOU. Half the Morgs I've seen don't even think to E themselves before they go in, so I really don't know why you're whining this much. I've Flashed and seen people Flash out of Annie's Flash + Tibbers combo, so if you actually USE your Summoner's for their intended purpose (Flash is for escaping or securing kills) you'll find that you die a lot less. If they use Zhonya's, all the smart squishies will immediately hightail it out of her ult radius, since, you know, she's UNABLE TO MOVE while Zhonya's active is active.

If you find laning against Morg to be so terrible, play people with some mobility. Really not that hard to find, since pretty much half the champs in the game have some type of mobility.

EDIT: Also, champs like Morg have to burn Flash in order to get CLOSE enough to ult, at least if the enemy team is smart enough to poke her as deterrent. I don't see why you're whining that her ult requires you to burn Flash.

oDemoniko4 votes

I feel compelled to reply to this post because I main support and have played a ton of Morgana support. The simplest answer to your question is this.

Yes, Morgana's ultimate continues to work after she activates Zhonya's.

Is it required to build Zhonya's on Morgana? No.

Is Zhonya's extremely effective on Morgana? Yes.

Is this play overpowered and needing revision by Riot? No.

Why?

Because the purpose of Zhonya's Hourglass is specifically for plays like this one to be possible. So squishy mage type champions are able to make team fight plays with some survivability.

It also allows counterplay in many forms, you can use any type of mobility, flash, dash, etc. to leave the area of effect. You can use a Quicksilver Sash to remove the effects of her ultimate, or even your own Zhonya's or any untargettable ability to become immune to her ultimates secondary effect.

I hope you find this information enlightening and learn from it. There aren't many gameplay mechanics in LoL that are truely overpowered because Riot sets up the ability to counterplay almost everything. You only need to analyze how things work in order to discover how to play against them.

Goodluck in the future, and don't be afraid to ask questions even if you get jumped on for doing so. Everyone started somewhere and no one got where they are today without asking questions.

Malix Farwin1 votes

I'd say it is required to build zhonyas on morgana other then that the rest of what you said is fine.

Stonington3 votes

It's been like that forever. If you took that mechanic away it wouldn't trim her power level, it would completely gut her.

Slushi Simcambi2 votes

Well she is ridiculously strong at all phases of the game so maybe trimming down her lategame would bring her down a bit and give other supports some late game breathing room.

Besides mobility, which she doesn't really seem to need considering the strong cc she has, Morgana doesn't have too many weaknesses in her kit.

Stonington2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slushi Simcambi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jw8Np7Vx,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-12T04:02:53.933+0000)

Well she is ridiculously strong at all phases of the game so maybe trimming down her lategame would bring her down a bit and give other supports some late game breathing room.

Besides mobility, which she doesn't really seem to need considering the strong cc she has, Morgana doesn't have too many weaknesses in her kit.

I don't think she's ridiculously strong. If you want to remove her ult interaction with hourglass you're basically saying I don't want this champ to have an ult. It wouldn't be a trimming, it would be a gutting.

Slushi Simcambi2 votes

So her ult revolves around the use of one item?

That doesn't seem like healthy champion design. If it is so integral to her ulti it should be a part of it in the first place.

Hex the FenFen2 votes

Several Champions revolve around a certain item though, and that is ok. Hourglass makes it so Morgana can use her ult to its full extent. If she never used Zhonya's then she would never be able to fully use her ult in team fights. 1v1 she doesn't need it, but in a full on fight she does. It is kinda the same thing where Vayne needs Blade of the Ruined King or how Vladimir needs Will of the Ancients, they do not necessarily entirely revolve around those items, they just make a big enough impact to use their kits to their full potential. A lot of champions are this way, it gives counter play to them. So if you keep Morgana from farming or from getting Spellthief procs then she cannot get her Hourglass, then she becomes an easy target.

I hope you understand what I am saying, it just gives a champion counter play/usability of their entire kit.

Slushi Simcambi2 votes

Yeah I kinda explained the difference in my post down below.

Stonington1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slushi Simcambi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jw8Np7Vx,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-12T04:09:26.981+0000)

So her ult revolves around the use of one item?

That doesn't seem like healthy champion design. If it is so integral to her ulti it should be a part of it in the first place.

A lot of champs require hourglass to be functional. Heimer is another one and he just got reworked last year.

If you want a champ with an hourglass and aoe lockdown on an ult that champ is called Lissandra.

NightNinja133 votes

Lets be honest here you just hate Morgana. Not the fact that she can use hourglass like kennen and Swain and several other champs. Morgana is fine. Yes she is dangerous however I want to say she is as balanced as her kit allows. She is a champ that really can't do much if she doesn't hit Q.

If you want to do something nerf hourglass and that will also nerf every other ap champ that buys it.

BlackRaven2 votes

thats nearly every ap. this isnt new, this wont be changed, because fizz and orianna need more safety as it is. ori can ulti as she zhonyas, fizz can e then zhonyas, then e again. come on bro.. this is league of zhonyas isnt it? balanced item.

Slushi Simcambi2 votes

Well in my opinion Zhonya's gives way too much to A LOT of champions, but Morgana's seems quite ridiculous to me just because of how large the range of her ulti is and how enormously impactful the cc is.

Honestly, I think CD should be absolutely frozen while in the Zhonya's state. That way it CAN be used to stall for your team but punishes those who use it in sticky situations.

Hex the FenFen4 votes

Running out of her ult while she is Zhonya'd is really easy, unless you were looking up her dress with your entire body.

BakedLotion2 votes

Her ult doesn't revolve around it. It revolves around OTHER champions using it. Dude, you're not gonna get anyone dumb enough to stand in her ult for the full duration. THey'll just kill you or zhonya themself. If this wasn't league of hyper mobility, and burst damage assassins, she wouldn't need it

Nerf Ireliavant2 votes

While you are at lets make it impossible for karthus' defile to work while he is in zhonyas and that he cant use it while death defied either since being untargetable while having AoE seems broken to you.

Slushi Simcambi2 votes

Karthus is a different case all together as part of his identity already is being able to cast spells while being untargetable.

His isn't heavy cc either and lacks large range so it doesn't really add to the discussion at all.

Der Lindwurm1 votes

She can't chase you while Zhonyas is up. Run away! Run for your life!

HidingOverHere1 votes

only reason zhonyas gives so much is because League items all suck. If they actually made another useful item or 10 this wouldnt be a problem.

Skia Asteri1 votes

Other tethers work the same as far as I am aware. Also, the second proc takes an unreasonable time to go off - a full 3 seconds. There is no way to survive that long otherwise.

And it is three seconds to allow the chance of escape in lane.

Direwolfiez1 votes

I love how every post in this thread that disagrees with this post is at 0. Hilarious. OP is so butthurt.

Try playing Morg in PvP and not using Zhonya's, or, hell, don't even BUY it, just go without it, and tell us how you do.

EDIT: You wanna know what's the cherry on the top of this amazing thread? You shit all over Morg for her ult's synergy with Zhonya's, but you completely ignore Fiddle, whose ult is arguable more dangerous than Morg's is because it will shred health bars in a few seconds if you don't get away from it, yet you ignore him and single out Morg. Hilarious.

More from Gameplay

More by Slushi Simcambi