Everyone on the boards really hates all these damage champs like yasuo, vayne, riven, akali, trynd and etc...
You know the solution is tank items that are slot and gold efficient.
Yea I just thought I'd throw it out there for the free downvotes because everyone apparently hates tanks more than they hate damage running around unchecked by you know tank items.
Paroe6 votes
all need their HP buffed to 450 and their combine costs reduced so their total cost is 2600g.
BugsLivesMatters3 votesI think I speak for most people when I say that I'd much rather get one-shot by an assassin than a tank.
Tank METAs are absolutely disgusting. At least with assassins, they pop like balloons when they step out of line or get caught out.
hiyares7 votesI think I speak for most people when I say that I'd much rather get one-shot by an assassin than a tank.
Tank METAs are absolutely disgusting. At least with assassins, they pop like balloons when they step out of line or get caught out.
the only tank that could realistically one shot anyone was chogath and that took 
toeven get near a target or to the amount of heath he needed to get near 1 shotting people. and they nerfed his ult by getting rid of steonplates passive adding to his damage. and in regard to him hes slow has a massive hit box takes a while to scale easy to kite weak to all forms of cc slows. Also for any other cho mains annoyed by it you can actually flash or dash away from chogath mid animation of his ult and it will cancel it so im guessing it acts like an auto or something.
GigglesO3 votesHonestly if tanks got a defense increase we could lower their damage too. That way tank itemization would also open up to the bruiser classes and we could see champions like J4 be less assassin like.
Paroe2 votesHonestly if tanks got a defense increase we could lower their damage too. That way tank itemization would also open up to the bruiser classes and we could see champions like J4 be less assassin like.
I think youve got that a little backwards... "tank" itemization is HP+resistances. Not HP+Offense. HP+Offense is bruiser itemization, and bruisers are actually WHY tank itemization is general bad.
GigglesO1 votesNo. I meant Like cho's R could have some damage shaved off. Orns %Max Hp and etc. The champs themselves could actually have some damage shaved off. They wouldn't have to deal so much upfront damage because there would be a higher chance of getting multiple rotations off.
The J4 comment was directed towards champs like him building those HP+Resistance items rather than all HP+ Offense and pure Offense items. Riot actually has J4 listed as a tank (in their client) ... Meanwhile hes just building assassin because its just better to build damage.
Paroe2 votesNo. I meant Like cho's R could have some damage shaved off. Orns %Max Hp and etc. The champs themselves could actually have some damage shaved off. They wouldn't have to deal so much upfront damage because there would be a higher chance of getting multiple rotations off.
To be perfectly honest, the problem with %HP damage is that riot likes to tie it to flat base damage. Tanks actually need to be relevant - and believe it or not %HP damage on its own isnt broken. Its "i do similar damage to everyone" kind of damage. Orrn, with his lack of base damage, has a perfectly balanced %HP ability.
Cho, also, is a specialist rather than a proper tank. While i agree his ult could be nerfed signifigantly (drop that HP scaling!), hes not the benchmark you should be using as "tank that does damage". You should be looking at champions like Braum, Alistar, and Leona.
GigglesO2 votesThis is still the type of communication and discussions that we need to have rather than getting stuck with the two extreme mentalities between assassins and tanks. We need a nice compromise on durability vs cc vs damage output that we just don't have right now. An example would be yasuo/lee sin/riven style champs. They have good cc, are relatively durable, and have amazing damage. Meanwhile Sion has similar (but not quite the same) issues every time he pops up strong because he has quite amazing damage for how much durability and cc he has.
My proposal to Riot if they were to ask me. Buff tank items so that more classes can use them/tanks are more durable because of tank item changes. Nerf damage on the outliers (likely tanks/bruisers) that are too abusive because of the buffs to tank items. We don't need to go back to season 1 league of 1500 hp warmogs, and realistically we shouldn't.
Paroe1 votesThis is still the type of communication and discussions that we need to have rather than getting stuck with the two extreme mentalities between assassins and tanks. We need a nice compromise on durability vs cc vs damage output that we just don't have right now. An example would be yasuo/lee sin/riven style champs. They have good cc, are relatively durable, and have amazing damage. Meanwhile Sion has similar (but not quite the same) issues every time he pops up strong because he has quite amazing damage for how much durability and cc he has.
My proposal to Riot if they were to ask me. Buff tank items so that more classes can use them/tanks are more durable because of tank item changes. Nerf damage on the outliers (likely tanks/bruisers) that are too abusive because of the buffs to tank items. We don't need to go back to season 1 league of 1500 hp warmogs, and realistically we shouldn't.
Youre focusing on way the wrong thing. No actual tank does a metric frag ton of damage, and what a tank even IS in the first place is highly muddied because riot doesnt even know how to differentiate the two properly.
Bruisers and tanks NEED - flat - to be distinct from each other with clear, explicit rules which they follow. Bruisers are mobile champions whose itemization is HP+AD. They have high base damage and high scaling with hard CC, often with some form of sustain too. Tanks are largely immobile champions whose itemization is HP+resistances. They have low base damage, average base stats, alternative scaling, and reliable CC. Champions like Maokai, Gragas, Nunu, and Poppy muddy the waters significantly because theyre bruisers through and through, but have powerful reliable CC. Champions like that need to be dealt with first and differentiated strongly from actual tanks.
GigglesO1 votesAnd this isn’t why we don’t get real discussion. You are trying to force definitions where we don’t need to. It’s more like we need to have a sliding scale between tank and bruiser.
You worry too much about each individual champion and their definition rather than just looking at the overall state of how shitty defense actually is.
The reason why you say the definition is so blurry is because riot keeps. Needing defense and upping offense. Tanks are currently basically bruisers. Which is why we need a damage shift into tankier itemization and slightly lower damages.
Paroe1 votesAnd this isn’t why we don’t get real discussion. You are trying to force definitions where we don’t need to. It’s more like we need to have a sliding scale between tank and bruiser.
You dont seem to understand just why bruisers and tanks are similar to the point where a bruiser is just a better tank. Im not forcing defitniions - take a step back and try to understand just what traits, at their core, make up a tank and a bruiser. They have specific traits, some of which overlap, which make them difficult (and essential) to dis-entangle from each other before any real change can be made to tanks. Bruisers are basically squares and tanks are rectangles. Tanks only really benefit FROM tank itemization where bruisers benefit from both their own unique itemization AND tank itemization. You cannot buff tank itemization without buffing bruisers. That leaves you with kit buffs and tank KITS have shown a propensity to be difficult to balance when you need to load power into their kit.
You worry too much about each individual champion and their definition rather than just looking at the overall state of how shitty defense actually is.
No, i worry about the classes as a whole... How you got me listing class traits being for specific champions is howards guess.
The reason why you say the definition is so blurry is because riot keeps. Needing defense and upping offense. Tanks are currently basically bruisers. Which is why we need a damage shift into tankier itemization and slightly lower damages.
No. The reason why the distinction between tank and bruiser is blurry is because riot keeps creating champions with both tank and bruiser traits which leads to people thinking ALL tanks do to much damage, are to tanky, heal for to much, or are way to effective when the reality is often the opposite. A bruiser like Gragas can function only with a runic echos. A bruiser like Maokai can function with only a RoA. A bruiser like poppy can function with only an IBG; And its because on top of a tanks reliable CC, they also have a bruisers sustain, base stats, AND scaling.
Although, to be perfectly honest, if riot just changed all tanks over to AD+defense scaling from AP+defense scaling there wouldnt be an issue. Existing tanks could take advantage of itemization that ACTUALLY benefits them and be competitive with bruisers instead of being an entirely different class. Would also deal with AP funsies like Malphite pressing R then clapping you for a oneshot.
GigglesO1 votesThat’s why you put them on the slider scale and then definitions don’t matter as one trait goes up the others go down. All sliders start in the middle. Bruisers can be rebalanced by giving them lower bases and higher ratios like they did for pyke,Ekko, and etc...
That way riot encourages having a Damage item or two, but riot then also has to be careful not to give too high of ratios as to encourage building full offense.
Paroe1 votesThat’s why you put them on the slider scale and then definitions don’t matter as one trait goes up the others go down. All sliders start in the middle. Bruisers can be rebalanced by giving them lower bases and higher ratios like they did for pyke,Ekko, and etc...
That way riot encourages having a Damage item or two, but riot then also has to be careful not to give too high of ratios as to encourage building full offense.
What? You cannot put bruisers and tanks on the same scale because theyre parallel to each other with different traits. They simply fill similar roles because bruisers overlap with tanks - Hence the squares and rectangles analogy. Squares are similar to rectangles but rectangles are not similar to squares. Fighters like DIana, Udyr, Jayce, and Lee-sin are on a sliding scale compared to Renekton, Maokai, Camille, Aatrox, and Sylas.
You seem very keen to deny the fact that tank items cannot be buffed without buffing other champions who utilize the itemization much better. You also seem very keen on denying that tanks cannot be buffed kit-wise while retaining enough offense to still be a threat.
GigglesO1 votesThat’s the thing you keep arguing without even reading my posts. They are the same class. All bruisers are are tanks that deal more damage but have either less cc or tankiness.
You put them on the slider system, you buff tank items, and then you make a clear trade off for building damage vs building defense like we did with Ekko and pyke.
Paroe1 votesThat’s the thing you keep arguing without even reading my posts. They are the same class. All bruisers are are tanks that deal more damage but have either less cc or tankiness.
You put them on the slider system, you buff tank items, and then you make a clear trade off for building damage vs building defense like we did with Ekko and pyke.
You dont seem to be reading my posts, or at least understanding them.
Listen, a TANK is like a rectangle. A BRUISER is like a square. A rectangle is not a square. A square is also a rectangle.
Because of this, a bruiser can utilize tank itemization even more effectively than a tank can utilize tank itemization but a tank cannot utilize bruiser itemization effectively. This means, explicitly, that you cannot buff tank itemization without buffing bruisers... And bruisers are broken because they combine effective defense - shields and sustain - with effective offense. While there is an argument to be made for buffing tank kits, theyre already in a precarious place because their kits alone are generally fine, and its their items that are lackluster.
GigglesO1 votesSo nerf the bruisers base damages and buff their ad scaling like they did with Ekko and pyke to encourage mixed builds. It’s like you didn’t even read the post I made.
Even if they use the defense better but can’t do anything because they don’t have offense then it’s fine.
Iota Theta1 votesChampions like Maokai, Gragas, Nunu, and Poppy muddy the waters significantly because theyre bruisers through and through, but have powerful reliable CC.
Wait, what? Since when are Maokai and Nunu “bruisers”? Maokai’s kit is very much tank, and Nunu’s kit is much more tank oriented than bruiser.
Paroe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JolmAz5J,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-06T14:14:22.744+0000)
Wait, what? Since when are Maokai and Nunu “bruisers”? Maokai’s kit is very much tank, and Nunu’s kit is much more tank oriented than bruiser.
Nunu is an AP bruiser, like maokai and gragas. They are mobile champions with good base stats, built in sustain, good base damage, good scaling, and hard CC.
You can claim theyre tanks all you want - but the fact remains at the core of their kit theyre intended to be bruisers who buy HP+Offense items.
Iota Theta2 votesNunu is an AP bruiser, like maokai and gragas. They are mobile champions with good base stats, built in sustain, good base damage, good scaling, and hard CC.
You can claim theyre tanks all you want - but the fact remains at the core of their kit theyre intended to be bruisers who buy HP+Offense items.
Except, Nunu and Maokai are not. Their intended to be tanks. They are literally a Warden and a Vanguard by Riot’s definition.
Vast majority of Maokai’s builds are pure tank. No RoA. In fact, only time AP items are listed for Maokai on lolalytics, it’s in “Winning items”, and those with <1% pickup rate outside Liandry’s at 2%. His AP ratios are 40% for Q and E, 75% for Ult, and 1% max HP damage per 100 AP on E. He has always been officially classified as a tank. So, no, he’s not an “AP bruiser.”
Nunu and Willump have always been a weird tank-AP mix, usually going one or the other because hybrid didn’t work much on them. they have higher AP ratios, mainly on his full channel ult, but their lolalytics shows 0 AP items being built on them. Riot has them classed as a Warden. That does not make them “AP bruiser.”
Gragas I would agree, because he apparently needs to build AP and deal damage to get stuff done. Galio was shifted to that style as well. Sylas is more of an AP bruiser than Maokai or Nunu. Nunu and Maokai are tanks, by the community, and by Riot, regardless of what you say.
To address why else you consider them that..
Nunu and Maokai are not that mobile. Nunu has 0 mobility, and Maokai requires an enemy to use W. Nunu has decent scaling, only notable one is on his full channel ult, but otherwise his damage is not that great, better against non-champs. Maokai has decent bases, but poor scaling.
These have sustain two, but sustain is not exclusive to fighters. It’s how Maokai and Nunu maintain their tankiness, especially since they either don’t have a shield or it’s tied to an ultimate. their heals also scale better with health, and Maokai’s heal doesn’t scale with AP at all.
No, they are not AP bruisers. I think you’re the only one, maybe a few others, labeling that. To the rest if league, they’re tanks.
chipndip12 votesNunu is an AP bruiser, like maokai and gragas. They are mobile champions with good base stats, built in sustain, good base damage, good scaling, and hard CC.
Idk what happened but someone gave you the biggest hoodwink of your League of Legends life if you believed this all this time.
Iota Theta2 votesI think I speak for most people when I say that I'd much rather get one-shot by an assassin than a tank.
Tank METAs are absolutely disgusting. At least with assassins, they pop like balloons when they step out of line or get caught out.
What tanks were one-shotting beyond Stoneplate Cho’gath? I mean, yeah, some had higher damage (RIP %current HP Ornn), but few could “one-shot” like an assassin.
The entire team2 votesThe boards are a mess. Kinda reminds me of a turf war between two factions. One who hates tanks and one who hates damage dealers.
Sad to say, the tank haters are a dying breed.
Lazersnaw3 votesTanks on an equal playing field are suppose to be tanky. Tanks still soak up tons of damage, but only if they are snowballing. Their kits are not equiped as good as yasuo or vayne ect so we dont see them fed much.
GigglesO1 votesAnd late game its like playing nuke vs hand grenade.
GreenKnight1 votes[{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JolmAz5J,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-05T00:49:08.329+0000)
The boards are a mess. Kinda reminds me of a turf war between two factions. One who hates tanks and one who hates damage dealers.
Sad to say, the tank haters are a dying breed.
Eh, i'm on the fence. Or, looking at the amount of downvotes i get, under it.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JolmAz5J,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-05T00:49:08.329+0000)
The boards are a mess. Kinda reminds me of a turf war between two factions. One who hates tanks and one who hates damage dealers.
Sad to say, the tank haters are a dying breed.
The people who hate tanks seem like a thriving inbreed right now.
The entire team2 votesNews to me. Now, it’s usually “Deletus the Rivenus, Bannus the Shojinus, upvotes because I’m right”.
The thigh guy2 votes[{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JolmAz5J,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2019-03-05T05:29:12.885+0000)
News to me. Now, it’s usually “Deletus the Rivenus, Bannus the Shojinus, upvotes because I’m right”.
I mean. Every post about making tank items even remotely good get downvoted to hell and back soooo.
GigglesO1 votesHow dare you discuss being able to build items that would make it so I as a Damage main can’t one shot you!
^^ That’s the mentality that keeps tanks gutted and relegated to only cc.
Iota Theta2 votes[{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JolmAz5J,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2019-03-05T05:29:12.885+0000)
News to me. Now, it’s usually “Deletus the Rivenus, Bannus the Shojinus, upvotes because I’m right”.
Well, that’s Riven and Shojin, which is an issue in themselves. Most hate toward Shojin is passive related, and a good many wanted the Spear of Shojin from...I’m blanking on the Game mode...Nexus Blitz?
hiyares2 votesokay i love playng tanks top i love it with a passion i main cho/mundo the proble with said damage you are talking about is.
1.yasuo- is stacked with passives and a way to avoid being poked out of lane which al lallow him to excell if he wins or loses lane once he has 2 to 3 items.
2-vayne armor items mean nothing to her are you an idiot??? with 
you are losing about 1/5th of your health as a tank regardless of what armor items you pick up and with her ult i cant even ult her ass as a cho.
3-riven- i dont have an issue with her personally but wth the current state of runes 10 percent true damage and ls with 
makes her level 6 idiotically annoying and oppressive to play into.
4-akali- legit was just a champ that broke the one rule of league tower is your last bastion of safety in lane. pretty much only reason why people hated her.
5-trynd- another i dont really care about but when you have both udyr and tryn split pushing you all game and you cant dive because your tanks get erased and then again conq comes into play and tanks cant do anything to him with his 3 lives yeahhhhh
Tank options dont matter as much as you think. maybe you should try it? tanks sitting at under50% win rates across the board if they cant abuse a certain rune. there is literally only one viable tank keystone and its only good to lane with while damage and most of those you have put u in this post can abuse conq with domination tree for idiotic amounts of sustain and penetration early on.
Tobykachu2 votesRight, because when I lock in Vel'Koz and see Riven top, my first instinct should be to rush Frozen Heart
GigglesO2 votesVelkoz is another damage crept champion. He didn't used to get the true damage on his ulti. It was just every 3 spell procs. I do think that all of these issues that everyone is complaining about comes down to "Well I can't build defense because it doesn't let me do anything building damage wouldn't just let me do better"
Daddy Ants1 votesVelkoz is another damage crept champion. He didn't used to get the true damage on his ulti. It was just every 3 spell procs. I do think that all of these issues that everyone is complaining about comes down to "Well I can't build defense because it doesn't let me do anything building damage wouldn't just let me do better"
His ult isn't just true damage straight away.
If you read the ability, once the target has 3 stacks of passive it becomes true damage.
GigglesO2 votesBefore it didn’t deal any only his passive did so it’s still technically damage creep.
OneMustFall2 votesIt would be nice to have tanks be actually tanky but not do crazy amounts of damage. The problem is so much damage in this game is preloaded with the Runes and base damage. Itemization feels far less important then it did 3-4 seasons ago as you can pretty much build anything and do tons of damage now.
Raiko Horikawa2 votesI myself do not mind damage when I play like a glasscannon, that is the risk you take as one. What I do mind is having 200+ Armor and still getting killed in less than 3 seconds by a heavy Ad Champ, whilst heaving 3k health and them not having LW.
BlueSmurf20181 votesTanks are still dishusting bullshit rn. Downvote me if u want or wtvr but im standing by this considering they outdamage bruisers and take negative damage
Iota Theta2 votesTanks are still dishusting bullshit rn. Downvote me if u want or wtvr but im standing by this considering they outdamage bruisers and take negative damage
They outdamage fighters? Maybe earlier in the game..
Negative damage? They heal when they’re hit? Man, what tanks are you seeing cause I would love that.
GigglesO2 votesOld Gallo hahaha I wish I could heal from taking damage.
chipndip11 votesAnd GigglesO shows us that he doesn't know why we aren't currently dealing with Tank Ekko.
GigglesO2 votesBecause riot decided to give him AP scaling and lower his base values so that he can’t just build defense and have high damage+defense?
Now he chooses defense or offense. This is something they could do to all champions. I remember them doing that entire rebalance, and they did the same thing to 
Plz know your change history before trying to make something up.
https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-515-notes AP Ratio's up, bases down. I've been here long enough to have seen all of these changes and remember most of them.
Iota Theta2 votesAnd GigglesO shows us that he doesn't know why we aren't currently dealing with Tank Ekko.
Tank Ekko? You mean the build that wasn’t a result of tank items being strong, but more he had high bases and enough delay on his skills that he could afford to run tankier and still get all his main damage? The build that dropped off when Riot merely shifted his damage from base to ratio but did little to nothing about tank items?
chipndip11 votes[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JolmAz5J,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2019-03-06T14:01:38.988+0000)
Tank Ekko? You mean the build that wasn’t a result of tank items being strong, but more he had high bases and enough delay on his skills that he could afford to run tankier and still get all his main damage? The build that dropped off when Riot merely shifted his damage from base to ratio but did little to nothing about tank items?
Aight so everyone's forgotten tank Fizz, Talon, Kassadin, and old Akali because I didn't literally go out of my way to list all the old tank assassins. Neat.
Iota Theta2 votesAight so everyone's forgotten tank Fizz, Talon, Kassadin, and old Akali because I didn't literally go out of my way to list all the old tank assassins. Neat.
Most of those were the same situation. Strong enough bases that they could forego building pure damage in order to survive longer for various reasons, whether terrible early game (Kassadin), or their assassin combos became more spread out (the rest). Most did not pick those up just because of tank items, but because of other things within their kit.
Illabethe1 votesExcept.... tank items only slow the death down from .5 sec to 1 second :S
Nah. For real: Tank items are fine early game. They even decide the direction a game snowballs.
But late game...... they make you regret buying them.
The only late game one that is arguably good: Randuin's.
DeathBurst1 votesI hate to say it but... if everyone hates all those champs, who's left to play them?
GigglesO1 votesIt’s more hate playing against them because it feels like there is nothing you can do to play. They just dash circles around you while if they do touch you they tend to win more than lose. They just have better kits than other champs.
Kivolan1 votesI'm pretty sure the issue is the utility attached to the damage, especially in the case of champions like Yasuo and Vayne.
GigglesO1 votesI’ve been thinking about that a lot lately in terms of riots definition of tanks just being “more reliable cc” rather than “damage soaks”... there are a lot of non-tanks that have almost the same cc...
Why play a tank when they can’t soak damage, when you could play something with similar utility/cc that also deals damage and has better mobility?