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"flat armor pene is useless against tanks"

Sona x Rubick·Aug 31, 2016·63 votes·4,466 views

i'm sorry, but do people know that since season 3 flat armor pene is applied after % armor pene?

if the ADC has youmu+a last whisper item+other armor pene items+armor pene runes/masteries cough jhin/mf cough then you're going to have troubles if your armor falls low due to ldr/mortal reminder.

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JoiUzQ4t,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-08-31T05:10:37.544+0000)

Flat Armor Pen by itself is useless against Tanks

yeah i know that, since 30 armor pene won't change anything between 200 armor and 170 armor, but what i'm telling you is that it isn't with % armor pene, because it changes a lot when your armor becomes low.

so people telling me to "stop complain about jhin getting duskblade and youmu if i'm a tank" can just go to check facts, it is indeed overbearing if he build LDR.

edit: don't forget a bruiser building black cleaver for its adc.

98 Comments

PhDs NutsAug 31, 201621 votes

I want to upvote but "pene" vs "pen" is making it too difficult.

doombotMECHAAug 31, 20163 votes

adc pasta op

BlâckLotusSep 1, 20161 votes

when you go flat armor pene youmus+duskblade then you either go for crit and you deal decent damage or you go for lw and you deal 0 damage.most people underestimate infinity edge,they dont understand that when you have 300 damage infinity edge gives you 150 damage more on crits which is A LOT,go build youmus go build duskblade you will deal more damage but will you deal 150 more damage on crits?

Akali is SO HOTAug 31, 201620 votes

Flat Armor Pen by itself is useless against Tanks

AreAug 31, 201616 votes

The anger towards flat armor pen is misplaced. You can't just say "flat armor pen isn't useless tanks because of % armor pen". Shouldn't you be complaining about % armor pen instead?

Flat armor pen doesn't do anything against tanks, but % armor pen will.

DisulfiramAug 31, 201620 votes

I think OP is mostly complaining about how they stack... Jihn can buy flat pen early and do quasi-true damage to tanks, then once the tank builds some armor he can just get Last Whisper and keep doing quasi-true damage.

The problem, as I undestood the OP, is that a stat that is there to counter squishies (flat arpen) stacks way too nicely against tanks too, making it too good not to take regardless of enemy team, situation, champion, etc.

We shouldn't forget that we're talking about champions who can do more than 1k damage twice per second pre-mitigation (with a crit build of course; I haven't checked the dps of an arpen build), while tanks don't/can't build more than 5k/6k HP.

Pierce The VealAug 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think OP is mostly complaining about how they stack... Jihn can buy flat pen early and do quasi-true damage to tanks, then once the tank builds some armor he can just get Last Whisper and keep doing quasi-true damage.

The problem, as I undestood the OP, is that a stat that is there to counter squishies (flat arpen) stacks way too nicely against tanks too, making it too good not to take regardless of enemy team, situation, champion, etc.

We shouldn't forget that we're talking about champions who can do more than 1k damage twice per second pre-mitigation (with a crit build of course; I haven't checked the dps of an arpen build), while tanks don't/can't build more than 5k/6k HP.

Even with the best crit/as/ad build, most adcs cannot hit for 1000 twice a second, nonetheless, your point is valid, the dps on these champs is insane. But it actually isn't as insane when building armpen.

What Is SmiteAug 31, 20163 votes

Draven

Mistress MadokaAug 31, 20162 votes

Pretty sure with enough Attack speed Draven can almost hit 2k/s

Pierce The VealAug 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Pretty sure with enough Attack speed Draven can almost hit 2k/s

But not 2 hits of 1k each per second. There's a handful of adcs that go over that dps.

Pierce The VealAug 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=What Is Smite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JoiUzQ4t,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-31T15:50:22.414+0000)

Doubt he would be able to do it if he built full armor pen. Hitting twice per second is the tough part to fulfill. But having over 2k dps shouldn't be a problem. Draven's an exception, a great Draven can get over 3,000 and even close to 4000 dps.

YCitizenSnipsYAug 31, 20161 votes

I don't know what the OP is complaining for, Miss Fortuen and Jhin are the only two adc's who are even going to build that many armor pen items. And of those two champions only Jhin is popular. This isn't that big of a deal becasue almost no ADC would use a build like that.

AreSep 1, 20161 votes

Armor pen builds do less damage than a traditional crit build. Armor pen builds don't scale as nicely as crit builds. In Jhin's case, the Korean armor pen build is stronger early-mid game, but the crit build will out-damage it after the third item. Any Jhin main will tell you to go crit over armor pen if you're against 2+ tanks or if you think the game will drag on over 25-30 minutes. In Miss Fortune's case, her pen build makes her ult much more potent, but her auto attacks aren't as strong as a crit build.

OP might be complaining about the early-mid game power spike that crit builds go, but they fall off and are actually weaker than a crit build late game.

If you're building to counter ADC correctly ( item 3047 item 3143 item 3110 item 3075 ) they shouldn't be doing over 800 damage a crit (with some exceptions like Jhin and maybe Draven).

There might be a problem with two items that cost 2.7k gold negating almost half your bonus armor.

Starfish HAug 31, 20169 votes

Not as dumb as the phrase "Assassains are the most broken class and should be removed from the game" Like wut? Without assassains Mages and ADC would be so out of control it wouldn't be funny.

doombotMECHAAug 31, 20163 votes

ok but real talk who are mages intended to be strong vs.? like tanks>assassins>adcs but where are mages in this?

Supreme Senpai69Aug 31, 20167 votes

Mages tend to deal AoE damage or provide utility to a team. Ideally you'll have a frontline tank to absorb damage, a mage to nuke the enemy team with high damage in the midline then move to the backline while they wait for their CDs to come back up, an ADC attacking the single closest enemy continuously (the enemy tank), a support to shield/heal the tank or cc the enemy team or otherwise peel, and a Hecarim to run into the enemy tower because all of my Hecarims feed but the enemy Hecarims are amazing.

BârdAug 31, 20167 votes

Flat armor pen IS useless against tanks...

That isn't opinion. That is math.

The fact that flat pen applies after % pen does not make it good at taking down tanks, it just means that buying both types isn't as inefficient.

The formula for damage taken is

Z = (100 / (100 + X)) * Y

X = Effective armor Y = pre-mitigation damage Z = damage taken

Effective armor is calculated by

Ignoring 20 armor from a 300 armor tank won't do shit, so the armor pen on your ghostblade isn't killing that tank. Doing so causes you to deal a measly 1.3% more damage.

At the same time, ignoring 45% the bonus armor of an ADC, who likely only has 9 bonus armor from runes, does absolutely nothing. This causes you to ignore a whopping 3.15 armor, which against an ADC with 50 total armor, results in a damage increase of about 2%.

Even if you were to buy them together, they aren't as great as you make it out to be. Assuming 100 base armor and 200 bonus armor, an upgraded LW would reduce their effective armor by 90, bringing them down to 210 armor. While this is much lower, the ghostblade still only brings them down to 190 effective armor, which is still a damage increase of about 2.2%. (to note: 20 armor against someone with 210 effective armor is about the same as 9% armor pen. 20 armor pen against someone with 300 armor is about the same as 6% armor pen. The improvement is not all that significant)

Both types are good, but are utterly ineffective if you are building the wrong type for the foe you wish to kill.

I could factor in Black Cleaver armor pen as well, but I really don't want to do any more math right now.

Sona x RubickAug 31, 20166 votes

honestly not realistic

none has 100 base armor in the game, none will build 200 bonus armor in the game except maybe rammus/malphite.

BârdAug 31, 20165 votes

Rammus, Braum, and Mega Gnar have over 100 base armor, Darius and Maokai are close.

On Braum, it wouldn't be unheard of to build the following against a comp with only one magic damage threat and a reliance on hitting you with high attack speed.

item 3401 item 2045 item 3190 item 3047 item 3110 item 3075 220 bonus from items, 29 from runes (with my Braum page, anyways. If I didn't run 1% crit, it would be 30), and +5% bonus armor from masteries.

Not counting Braum's W, this is a total of 261 bonus armor (262.5 if I ditched my lucky crit rune).

Sona x RubickAug 31, 20162 votes

alright you got me on that.

crippler38Aug 31, 20162 votes

would swapping out one of the armor items, say mostly frozen heart, for randiun's be good vs say jhin who doesn't give a fck about attack speed?

BârdAug 31, 20163 votes

No, not FH.

The AS reduction aura would cause Whisper to generate less AD from attack speed, thus reducing Jhin's overall damage significantly.

FH is amazing on Braum, and not half bad against Jhin.

Swap out the Thornmail for Randuins against a fed Jhin.

Randuins+FH stack multiplicitively: a 27.75% attack slow to anyone who hits you, and 15% for everyone nearby

DisulfiramAug 31, 20161 votes

Actually 200 bonus armor is not much ( item 3110 + item 3075 bring very close, and the HP/armor items all give 50).

The problem would probably be that you either would want magic resist too (thus limiting the slots for armor) or(/and), if the enemy team is mostly AD, someone would build item 3071 , making armor stacking even less effective.

Sona x RubickAug 31, 20163 votes

look at the lcs, who built those 2 items? none. And yes,i completly forgot black cleaver from a bruiser LOL Darius MonkeyKing Fiora and so many people.

TheProAndrewAug 31, 20164 votes

i remember i was playing a normal game as Malphite and i had 500 armor and i 1v1 a Riven and she had item 3071 and im not joking but my armor went from 500 > 300 after 5 hits.... literally she just destroyed like 4k gold in stats with only 1 bruiser item that gives cdr hp and damage + ms

i managed to reach 775 armor that game tho, good think their only "AP" was an anivia support

Bladerunner7777Aug 31, 20165 votes

Don't 1v1 Riven as a tank you dingus

THE RlVER KlNGAug 31, 20162 votes

People always whine that Riven is weak vs tanks and use that as an excuse to defend her. Pick one.

Bladerunner7777Sep 1, 20161 votes

Tank in a teamfight > Riven in a teamfight

Riven 1v1 > Tank 1v1

AnidanAug 31, 20162 votes

Isn't Black Cleaver supposed to be an armor counter...? Doesn't make much sense to make a big deal out of an armor counter being an armor counter, regardless of extra stats appended to it. She's going to make some of your gold spent less relatively valuable, and that's just the nature of that item, just like your armor made the gold she spent on damage less relatively valuable.

kile147Aug 31, 20163 votes

To be fair, you should be stacking health too. 500 Armor, even on Malphite, isn't that efficient when you don't have health to back it up. Riven not only relies on burst damage combos, but has no %HP damage or any good way to build it meaning that 200-300 Armor with 4000 Health is much better than 500 armor with 2000 Health.

TheProAndrewSep 1, 20161 votes

forgot to mention... almost 4k hp

TruckFump2016Aug 31, 20163 votes

You know what "pene" means in Spanish?

DunkinNoobsAug 31, 20163 votes

Stacking flat armor pen will always be less useful against tanks than just building Crit, AS, and AD will, even with a LW. So they lowered your armor by a ton; so what? They don't actually do that much damage without crits, especially to tanks.

Sona x RubickAug 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So they lowered your armor by a ton; so what?

so what? you mean you being killed quickly isn't a problem?

DunkinNoobsAug 31, 20165 votes

Can you at least pretend to argue in good faith? You know my point wasn't done there.

dangopeeAug 31, 20163 votes

I think flat pen in general is just a misleading stat that is kind of toxic against squishies and useless against tanks.

ABlueQuakerAug 31, 20163 votes

pene

8=======================)

THE RlVER KlNGAug 31, 20163 votes

Inb4 HateDaddy comes and rages at you

MiraweaveAug 31, 20162 votes

It's not "useless", but it's MUCH worse against tanks than it is against squishies, to the point where there's no reason to build it over more AD if your goal is to kill tanks.

The Yetii RiderAug 31, 20162 votes

And? Carries are supposed to kill tanks. Don't cry because you can't tank everyone in the game.

Assassins aren't going to kill you. Mages aren't going to kill you. That's the point.

Dr PoroAug 31, 20162 votes

That doesn't take away the point that flat arpen is still better against squishies than vs tanks.

If you shred 45% armor, flat armor will still be more gold efficient than the flat arpen stats (20g per stat -> 36g vs 40g per stat). The problem, however, is that tanks must also build magic resist.

I believe the issue doesn't lie with flat arpen (maybe this is also an issue, but not for tanks). The problem is the massive 45% bonus arpen that LDR gives. Mages can only get up to 35% magic pen without masteries. This makes magic resist a lot more useful than armor vs the 45% of LDR + up to 30% from BC.

I'd say LDR should be nerfed to 40% arpen. People are actually buying this item as 3rd big item now.

DengedenAug 31, 20162 votes

No I won't. Cleaver needs to stack up and LW is an ADC-exclusive anti-tank item either way.

ACENOXAug 31, 20161 votes

according to wikithat's right

SwiftKitten88Aug 31, 20164 votes

{quoted}

according to wikithat's right

it is right.. but the wiki isnt always right... hell the wiki says nid's "hunt" passive gives "true vision" aka reveals stealthed units.

the pre-rework traps used to yes.. but her hunt passive NEVER did, and that has been wrong on the wiki for what? 2 years now? and nobody bothered to update it

Edit: i justed updated it XD

Pierce The VealAug 31, 20161 votes

Assume base armor of 80, total armor of 300.

If you have an upgraded last whisper item, that is down to 201 armor.

Assuming 50 armor pen, now that's down to 151. 60% damage reduction. Seems pretty insignificant eh?

Sona x RubickAug 31, 20163 votes

see, the problem i have with this thread is everyone taking 300 armor

i literally never saw someone in lcs building until having 300 armor, NEVER. And if it happened it must have been like 2 or 3 times when there was only AD in the enemy team.

Gregor GysiAug 31, 20161 votes

Yeah, because LCS games usually end before everyone being fullbuild anyways. Other than that you are generally right. Flat armor pen encourages the tanks to build armor but if the AD also has %pen building armor is less efficient. But the thing here is that if Jhin builds 3 ArPen items this also means that he has very little sustain. And sustain is also very important when fighting tanks (but happens to be less efficient when the tanks have a lot of effective armor..).

Sona x RubickAug 31, 20162 votes

MissFortune Lucian Graves Draven , jhin isn't the only one tbh.

SevixysAug 31, 20163 votes

No one builds 300 armor except in rare - and incredibly stupid - cases where the enemy team is full ad. If you decide to go full ad, don't complain when the enemy builds armor.

If the enemy builds that much armor, he/she can't tank effectively against ap champs - let your ap carry melt them.

Pierce The VealAug 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No one builds 300 armor except in rare - and incredibly stupid - cases where the enemy team is full ad. If you decide to go full ad, don't complain when the enemy builds armor.

If the enemy builds that much armor, he/she can't tank effectively against ap champs - let your ap carry melt them.

I already gave an example of 200 armor, which is fairly common. It doesn't make much of a difference. Someine with 200 armor ends up having only 10% more damage reduction than someone with 300 armor, after resists that is.

You can tank really well against AP carries even without building mr, as long as you build hp. One AP item is more than enough to be tanky as hell against apcs. Unless the ap carry is smart enough to actually get liandries they'll have a real tough time melting said tank.

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