"Kassadin was nerfed because his ability to get into and out of a fight was low risk high reward"

DustyElLion·Jan 3, 2015·94 votes·5,638 views

93 Comments

Knight SoIaire Jan 3, 201527 votes

zed has a cap on his reward and a long cooldown to punish him not to mention that he needs to actualy kill your adc before you stunn him unlike kassading who popped out of nowhere remowing your carry and popped out just to pop in again in 3 seconds

zed is punishable and counterable kassadin wasnt

YOU BEEN WARNEDJan 3, 20159 votes

Bullshit, Kassadin was very counterable as well as killable unless he already completed tear & RoA then he will do what lategame champions do.

You're telling me the 90% ban rate on Jax was justifiable ? Hell most of you ban Yasuo like crazy while he has numerous counters and counterplay mechanics.

Zed is more of a godmode champion than Kassadin was. At least Kassadin didn't get free farm before 6 and had to finish up items to work.

Zed can work with like 3 long swords.

Jesus is SaviorJan 4, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JnpitIlQ,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-01-03T23:14:47.398+0000)

Bullshit, Kassadin was very counterable as well as killable unless he already completed tear & RoA then he will do what lategame champions do.

You're telling me the 90% ban rate on Jax was justifiable ? Hell most of you ban Yasuo like crazy while he has numerous counters and counterplay mechanics.

Zed is more of a godmode champion than Kassadin was. At least Kassadin didn't get free farm before 6 and had to finish up items to work.

Zed can work with like 3 long swords.

Oh, 90% banrate? So you're talking about pre-rework Kassadin?

Tell me more about how I need items on pre-rework-Kassadin. I remember going 0/5, but it was k, I took teleport as a summoner spell. I'd go back, fully stack my R in the fountain, and then teleport into lane with no items and literally one-shot my laner with R, and no other spells.

I would then proceed to go back and buy items with my shutdown gold, and gank lanes.

Absinthe DrinkerJan 4, 20152 votes

Ahri

googlemasterJan 4, 201517 votes

kass was couterable the second they removed his silence. zeds shadow teleport range is much larger than kass' teleport range and its completely instant where kass you can hit with a spell during his R windup. yeah, rift walk is initially farther but at least it doesnt set up a shadow that slows you every 4~ seconds.

maybe compared to original kass zed was weaker, but new kass has way more weaknesses than zed does.

PoshrielJan 4, 20153 votes

{quoted}

kass was couterable the second they removed his silence. zeds shadow teleport range is much larger than kass' teleport range and its completely instant where kass you can hit with a spell during his R windup. yeah, rift walk is initially farther but at least it doesnt set up a shadow that slows you every 4~ seconds.

maybe compared to original kass zed was weaker, but new kass has way more weaknesses than zed does.

I'm not even worried about zeds slow, it's more like after he ignites you and gets you to lethal with his ult, he doesn't have to stay there, he just presses r and he's back where he started again, completely safe.

Sailing WombatJan 4, 20157 votes

zed is the best mid in the game. look at whom every challenger mid player has in most played

Knight SoIaire Jan 4, 20154 votes

yup atm zed is the best mid in the game but its not because off his ult

the only problem with zed is his capability to farm from very long ranges

either he wins the lane and stomps you or stands ouut of your range and never gives you a chance

so any challenger player who wants to win will pick him up

also did anyone notice how pathetic was the OP's analysis on the "Kassadin was nerfed because his ability to get into and out of a fight was low risk high reward" statement

sorry but kassa was able to pop out of fight everytime someone scratched him just to go back when another opportunity arises meaning that he was never in danger

now compare it to a guy who has at least 45seconds cooldown on his move and needs to 100% kill the target for it to pay off

so when we speak about capability to go in and out kassa didnt sacrifice anything to do it besides 4 seconds of his time while zed can be shown off and he is barely usefull till he gets his ult back up

MakersFJan 4, 20151 votes

Not really. They definitely nerfed riftwalk because Kassa was too safe like you said, but not because he was able to jump in and then out before being in danger (which obviously it's not true since the CD was at least 3 secs, and full AP kass in 3secs explodes). The reason was that all the pros were either 1) hitting Q/E from max range and then R away if someone wanted to retaliate 2) jumping from nowhere at Q/E max range and then walking away impossible to catch due to silence + slow.

What they wanted to do with the change was exactly to force him to jump in the middle of the enemy team to do the dmg and then go out. Something they failed miserably at doing so since 1) the ulti does almost no DMG 2) they removed the AS from the passive (man, did I loved it. In lane it always granted a kill when the enemy tried to all-in you. Almost no one knew of it).

Kass now is kind of a fine state, the problem is that they nerfed the ulti (which now has basically a 20sec CD, since you'll burn all your mana if you use it more often) AND the MS. I agree with the ulti nerf, but now kass is kind of immobile and can not roam at all. That's why you see him top now.

I'd like to see some reward if you use your ulti aggressively, like halving the stacks count if you hit a champion, and loading 2 stacks if you just use to move. Or building up (high) DMG if you hit a enemies for several riftwalks

Knight SoIaire Jan 4, 20151 votes

(which obviously it's not true since the CD was at least 3 secs, and full AP kass in 3secs explodes).

then we have guys like akali katarina talon who also go full glasscannon and survive

being a glasscannon means you need to position carefully and use your team as a body shield not that you will get killed right away

also kassa wasnt a glasscannon since ap itemization allowed for quite nice tankyness along that ap (roa rylai and zhonya = tanky kassa with decent ap, toss a rabaddon on top of it and he shredded)

that was my ultimate problem with him pre nerf, he was tanky enough to easily survive till next riftwalk and always came back when his team atracted attention

I'd like to see some reward if you use your ulti aggressively, like halving the stacks count if you hit a champion, and loading 2 stacks if you just use to move. Or building up (high) DMG if you hit a enemies for several riftwalks

or making the stacking only affect the mana cost instead of damage

for kassa to do anything strong he has to blow his entire mana pool to stack the ult and finaly go all in if damage does not increase riot can easily give him eough to work while he wont be that fearsome master of unpunishability

MakersFJan 5, 20151 votes

I really think you have no idea what you are taling about. Pre-nerf Kassadin was built the same as pre rework Gragas: Rabadon/Zhonia first, Lich Bane second, Zhonia/Rabadon, void staff, shoes and Guardian Angel/DFG(or Seraph for who was investing more in the late game than the mid game).

No one ever built a single defensive AP item on him (like you suggested). No one. (you can check 2 years ago LCS)

or making the stacking only affect the mana cost instead of damage

This is a nerf... The ulti right now barely does dmg.

then we have guys like akali katarina talon who also go full glasscannon and survive

Only akali can "tank" dmg. The other 2 explode exactly like kassadin. The fact that they survive is because they know what they are doing and they are positioning correctly. But neither of them, like kassa, can survive if focussed. Or are you suggesting every assassin is supposed to die when he tries to assassinate?

being a glasscannon means you need to position carefully and use your team as a body shield not that you will get killed right away

And I'm sorry man, but you can not redefine common terms in the gaming field. Glasscannon,in every game, means someone that deal high dmg but can take almost none. Like the word says,it is a cannon (which can hurt really bad) made of glass (which can be easily broken). There is absolutely no hint in positioning/body shielding/use a team (and in many games where glasscannon is used there is not even a team, they are solo games)

Knight SoIaire Jan 5, 20151 votes

This is a nerf... The ulti right now barely does dmg.

i hope that you did read my post

if damage does not increase riot can easily give him eough to work while he wont be that fearsome master of unpunishability

i think that covers iit

Or are you suggesting every assassin is supposed to die when he tries to assassinate?

im suggesting that all assasins should position correctly even akali cant realy tank that damage unless fed to the point where she outheals your carries

There is absolutely no hint in positioning/body shielding/use a team (and in many games where glasscannon is used there is not even a team, they are solo games)

yes thats why i speak about glass cannons in lol instead of some solo game

by the same principle i cant label anyone who says swag as homosexuals from prison just because that term originated there

MakersFJan 5, 20151 votes

by the same principle i cant label anyone who says swag as homosexuals from prison just because that term originated there

I wish they were all in prison :P

Anyway, ok, I think we kind of agree except for the possible kass changes, but who cares :)

HandheldBrandonJan 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JnpitIlQ,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-01-03T19:06:41.507+0000)

zed has a cap on his reward and a long cooldown to punish him not to mention that he needs to actualy kill your adc before you stunn him unlike kassading who popped out of nowhere remowing your carry and popped out just to pop in again in 3 seconds

zed is punishable and counterable kassadin wasnt

You assume he can only burst adcs.

He can burst your mid your top your adc your support your jungle and he can be out before you can retaliate. He can literally int he span of 2-3 seconds do all the damage he needs to do then use his ult to get out and his second part of his ult will do the rest for him. While kassadin could silence you and kill you and be out he also had no reliable farming or aoe waveclear until he got ap. Zed has excellent clear, excellent burst, excellent mobility, and excellent safety along with excellent poke.

SmokinSickStyleJan 3, 201512 votes

Did you pull dem quotes out of your ass?

Kassadin was nerfed because he had huge base damage+ap ratio= Great burst, very good mobility tool that also dealt damage (80% +20% each stack AP ratio made so it was actually his HARDEST hitting ability on top of being used as a blink), tankyness (On top of 15% magic dmg reduction he sitll has, he gained mr\lvl as all melee champs, almost.) against mages and silence that made him not an anti AP, but an anti caster.

As soon as his power was gutted by almost 60% LeBlanc followed as she had the exact same problem, CC+Burst+Mobility, no counterplay if they decided to jump on ya.

Were you absent the last season where everything that had silence+burst was nerfed?

Right now Kassa has decent mobility, subpar AP countering (LB, Talon, even Veigar does it better), and decent AP scalings.

SleepyLionCubJan 3, 201511 votes

Kassadin was OP before for certain. However his nerf made his ult so complete shit that he isnt even worth playing.

it FORCES you to buy mana. But then has stupidly low damage even after getting tons and tons of mana.

JunkοJan 3, 20153 votes

maybe because a 3-4 sec cd mobility spell wasn't supposed to deal amazing burst damage

i do agree his nerfs were a bit too harsh everywhere else though.

Vellich0rJan 4, 20152 votes

i dont necessarily agree, Kassadin is still in a great spot right now, you start Rod, move into zhonya's then build damage. you can initiate fights and get out alive, you still have wacko damage (just less in your blink) and its pretty easy to go even in lane with mana regen on his W and a long range CSing tool in his Q. He is seeing increasing play once again and is a late game god same as always.

JamareeJan 3, 201510 votes

Source?

BattleBalladeerJan 3, 20155 votes

Yeah if this is a real Riot quote I want more things to try to bury Zed with.

kromon1kJan 3, 201510 votes

Could you please post a link to a Rioter who said those exact words?

Edge of DaybreakJan 3, 20158 votes

Pretty sure its because he has the strongest mobility spell in the game and had a burst combo that started with a targeted 2.6 second silence.

DeusVultJan 3, 20158 votes

LeeSin

Gear KittyJan 3, 20153 votes

LeeSin

Kuroi86Jan 3, 20153 votes

Funny, didn't know Lee Sin could jump a wall four times or more.

PoshrielJan 3, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Funny, didn't know Lee Sin could jump a wall four times or more.

Funny, didn't know Lee Sin had mana.

Kuroi86Jan 4, 20152 votes

Sure, lets give Lee Sin mana. But in return lets allow him to jump as often as he wants, I mean, Kass can.

PoshrielJan 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Sure, lets give Lee Sin mana. But in return lets allow him to jump as often as he wants, I mean, Kass can.

Kassadin only jumps free once he gets late game. And he has 1 source of jump, and it's his ultimate. Lee sin has 3 forms of sticking power and 2 forms of escape within the first 3 levels. And despite him having a resource, it hardly matters, as he can use all 3 and still have plenty energy from his passive left over.

Kuroi86Jan 4, 20152 votes

If he hits something in between all of that, sure. But then his passive energy gain is about the only thing I think needs tweaking.

Rinky DinkyJan 4, 20156 votes

Guys, Zed is not as big as an issue as you people claim right now. He can be countered by an item that everysingle carry class has access to (QSS, Zhonyas). Tanks and supports are in danger I suppose... (lol if a Zed focuses muh tank). Your Carries should be itemizing to protect themselves. If they dont, thats a risk they took.

The only thing that Zed could use a nerf on is maybe his interaction with bork, or perhaps that deathmark's multiplier is no longer applied before resistances take effect.

That last change would very much hurt Zed, but would make alot more sense. Compensation would likely be needed. I do find the bork interaction to be be unbalanced.

If you wanna talk about a champion that can go in, low risk high reward style, Fizz exists. (He can jump in, delete someone instantly, Zhonya's, and then jump out/delete someone else). He also has 2 slows, one of which is aoe, and a knock up. Along with Grevious wounds... no unit collision... reduced physical damage taken.... %missing hp PASSIVLY... does no one see the problem?

junglerboy16Jan 4, 20154 votes

that is just the issue though. Zed can focus a tank, and kill them with ease. I was playing as Sion, had a Juggernaut enchanted jungle item, a Warmogs, a Randuins, and a Trinity force, as well as over 400 bonus HP from my W. Zed, who only had 3 kills, 100-0ed me in 3 seconds, even through my shield and knock up. HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BURST A TANK LIKE THAT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

The EllimiistJan 4, 20154 votes

I dunno how much you play adc but qss does not save you from zed most of the time as well as eating 1200 gold for what is basically a stat-less item

Byakuya KuchikiJan 5, 20151 votes

gets rid of deathmark (i think thats what its called) and if yuo upgrade it has the ad of a bt plus movement speed and magic resist its not that bad for a 6th item if ahead 4th if behind

BeatzBoyFTWJan 3, 20155 votes

He always left a shadow behind from where he ult'ed, it's your fault, or your teams', that you guys were never aware of it. Always assume that when he kills a single person, he will then proceeds to either run ahead or shadows back from where he landed his ult.

BeatzBoyFTWJan 4, 20151 votes

No idea where the downvotes come from, even though what I said was true. Looks like you guys were never tried a lot to fight Zed before.

InquizelusJan 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No idea where the downvotes come from, even though what I said was true. Looks like you guys were never tried a lot to fight Zed before.

Looks like you're an idiot. Zed's shadow used to be put behind the target.

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 3, 20155 votes

Azir

ModCaptainMårvelousJan 4, 20154 votes

I'll be honest. I thought it'd be Lee Sin's picture.

Byakuya KuchikiJan 5, 20151 votes

now thats over in gd here we have a little logic. sometimes

Meep ManJan 3, 20153 votes

You would be right there, but it wasn't his ability to get into fights, it was his ability to kill a target. Silence them, they can't use spells for 2 seconds, Kassadin could then burst them down in that window, and then flash away. If you can do nothing but escape, you will never win.

XardentJan 4, 20153 votes

Was expecting Fizz

JunkοJan 3, 20152 votes

Didn't know Zed has a flash on a 3 second cooldown along with having free damage reduction as his passive, while dealing high burst AoE damage and having hard CC.

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 3, 20152 votes

Silence is hard CC now?

Zed has to be a dumb dumb to ever die.

JunkοJan 3, 20151 votes

Dying with your only good escape on a 1 minute cooldown is way easier than dying with 15% reduced all magic damage, silence, strong slow and a 3 second cd flash.

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 3, 20152 votes

He has one escape? I thought his shadow was an escape, no?

JunkοJan 3, 20151 votes

Gratz you moved 1 feet! It's not even the range of Flash, and it's on 14 CD at max rank. LB W is little short of flash range on a 10 second cooldown at max rank not to mention it deals huge AoE damage when it's maxed and she can tp back. Then there is Kassadin...

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 3, 20156 votes

What game are you playing? 1 foot* doesn't sound like much and I am pretty sure Zed moves further than that. And now we start talking about LB? Thought this was a Kass thread lol?

JunkοJan 3, 20152 votes

I was comparing his what you consider "escape" to a way stronger spell that does the exact same thing.

If you want to compare Kass and Zed: Kass pre-rework escape 4 sec cd 700 range Zed escape 14 sec cd at max rank 500 range

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 4, 20156 votes

And Kass was nerfed, what is your point lol? You are also comparing a basic spell to an ult.

The EllimiistJan 4, 20158 votes

Flash Range - 400 Shadow Range - 550

Pls learn the game before posting in balance xD