At least they have to land a skill shot and don't get X second of invulnerability while still doing ridiculous damage. Hell fiora can get caught by 2+ peeps get taken low, only to press R and life steal it all back with absolutely no counter-play. That's good gameplay amirite?
ChargeItDownMid14 votes[deleted]
gubigubi4 votesThats the exact reason Fiora has around 52% win rate in Solo Q , But then you look at high elo team matches and her win rate is 37%. (2nd worst behind Garen)
Sightless664 votesWhere can I find those statistics?
gubigubi2 voteslolking and various other websites that have stats. Make sure you set the stats to weekly or monthly because daily can be very random on some of the charts.
Narasimha9 votesI mean, thats WHY they're melee carries. They're the equivalent of ADCs, but are given extra strengths to make up for being melee.
PL5510 votesYes and so many people can't understand this is the reason why Yasuo has a wall and a passive shield.
manbearswine3 votesthe shield yes,wall...not so much,wall varies highly depending on picks,and for the most part just forces certain picks,as it is capable of negating entire kits otherwise.
AbodyHUN66610 votesI actually really like Yasuo's playmaking potential with his shield, but Trynda and Fiora ults are just bullshit. When they beat me in a game I just want to delete the game because I feel cheated.
A Slime Appears6 votesYou've got two choices.
Your choice.
manbearswine2 votes[{quoted}](name=A Slime Appears,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6AQnIAxN,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2014-12-23T22:25:25.502+0000)
You've got two choices.
- Nerf ranged across the board so melee carries don't have to be retarded to even be viable.
- Deal with melee carries that are retarded just so they can be viable.
Your choice.
a melee adc(in contrast to a melee carry) in lol will always be retarded,the concept of glass cannon melee dps is incredibly stupid and cannot possibly work in a healthy way,jax or nasus in contrast(both of which are melee carries,but not melee adcs),are mostly okay(not top tier,but they work,sort of(got nerfed pretty hard after their dominance)).
It's also important to note melee adcs ARE NOT in competition with ranged adc,yasuo is a mid laner(or top laner,w/e) and competes with mid laners,yi is mostly a jungler and competes with junglers,fiora and trynd mostly top laners,and compete with other top laners.
A Slime Appears3 votesExcept they compete in top lane all the time and the ranged is going to win unless they play rather stupidly. That includes RADCs like Quinn and Vayne but extends to almost any kind of ranged, because ranged just shits on melee in general. If you took away Tryn/Fiora's ult and Yi's Q they would be absolute fucking trash, unless you replaced it with a similarly broken mechanic.
Though you are right about bot, they aren't in competition bot because they CAN'T compete with RADCs there.
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=A Slime Appears,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6AQnIAxN,comment-id=000300000001000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-23T22:47:15.157+0000)
Except they compete in top lane all the time and the ranged is going to win unless they play rather stupidly. That includes RADCs like Quinn and Vayne but extends to almost any kind of ranged, because ranged just shits on melee in general. If you took away Tryn/Fiora's ult and Yi's Q they would be absolute fucking trash, unless you replaced it with a similarly broken mechanic.
oh,and I thought top maokai was strong,guess I was wrong then.
Though you are right about bot, they aren't in competition bot because they CAN'T compete with RADCs there.
their not supposed to,bot lane is tailored so adcs will work there due to the disengage of supports,for something else to work there you will either need to make it so broken it just won't care,or remove supports from bot lane.
A Slime Appears2 votes"oh,and I thought top maokai was strong,guess I was wrong then."
Cool you named one melee champ. Out of 40-50 or so? And Maokai isn't a MADC, which is what I was taking about specifically. Not that bruisers like Darius don't have problems with ranged too. I have to admit I'm amused you brought up Maokai considering what his W does though. And then his ult blocks like 15-20% damage or something for everyone inside it? LIke I said, melees need broken mechanics to be relevant.
"their not supposed to,bot lane is tailored so adcs will work there due to the disengage of supports,for something else to work there you will either need to make it so broken it just won't care,or remove supports from bot lane."
No, they don't work there because ranged already shits on melee (see top lane) and supports just exacerbate that advantage. If supports weren't there it'd be just like top lane.
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=A Slime Appears,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6AQnIAxN,comment-id=00030000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-24T00:05:35.412+0000)
"oh,and I thought top maokai was strong,guess I was wrong then."
Cool you named one melee champ. Out of 40-50 or so?
oh so now there are 40-50 champions viable at top lane,i gave you an example of one champion,rumble also is considered a very strong top laner,and is melee as well,besides it's not like the competitive scene was ever varied in picks anyway,.
And Maokai isn't a MADC, which is what I was taking about specifically.
ofc he isn't,melee adc are toxic by definition,why would riot allow something obnoxious to be strong,hell take yasuo who was supposed to be the first viable madc,look how much the community loves that moronic piece of shit which should be deleted.
Not that bruisers like Darius don't have problems with ranged too. I have to admit I'm amused you brought up Maokai considering what his W does though. And then his ult blocks like 15-20% damage or something for everyone inside it? LIke I said, melees need broken mechanics to be relevant.
expect there is nothing broken about those mechanics? what is so special about rumble for example?
No, they don't work there because ranged already shits on melee (see top lane) and supports just exacerbate that advantage. If supports weren't there it'd be just like top lane.
so we would be seeing melee champions like rumble and maokai?
riot doesn't want to kick out ranged champions from top lane,quin whom you've mentioned has nowhere else to go,they want both melee and ranged to work there,and you can see that in competitive games.
A Slime Appears5 votes"oh so now there are 40-50 champions viable at top lane"
No, I'm saying the vast majority of melees will get shit on in lane by a ranged champ. Naming one that does well with a broken kit doesn't disprove that. It just proves you need a broken kit as a melee or you suck.
"ofc he isn't,melee adc are toxic by definition,"
That was my entire fucking point so why are you even arguing with me? That's literally 100% of my first post's content and here we are.
"expect there is nothing broken about those mechanics? what is so special about rumble for example?"
What? Maokai's W allows him to dodge skillshots and CC just like Fiora's ult and Yi's Q does. If it's broken on them why isn't it on Maokai? And I'm curious why you think 20% AoE damage reduction isn't kind of silly?
manbearswine2 votesNo, I'm saying the vast majority of melees will get shit on in lane by a ranged champ. Naming one that does well with a broken kit doesn't disprove that. It just proves you need a broken kit as a melee or you suck.
and how much competitive play does quinn see? It's not that ranged champs shit on most top laners,it's that meta champions shit on everyone,nothing new here,rumble will shit on most melees just as much as lissandra will.(assuming the players are good)
"ofc he isn't,melee adc are toxic by definition,"
That was my entire fucking point so why are you even arguing with me? That's literally 100% of my first post's content and here we are.
my point is(and remains),that melee adcs are retarded in complete disregard to the state of ranged carries,or ranged top laners,or anything at all for that matter,glass canon melee dps is cancer,it cannot be anything else.
"expect there is nothing broken about those mechanics? what is so special about rumble for example?"
What? Maokai's W allows him to dodge skillshots and CC just like Fiora's ult and Yi's Q does. If it's broken on them why isn't it on Maokai
well,if you think about it,the weaknesses of tanks(maokai) isn't hard cc,but more their reliance on their teammates and to a lesser extent kiting,invulnerability on an assassin/madc counteracts their weakness and destroys counterplay,invunerability on a tank...makes him tankier,not a big deal.
And I'm curious why you think 20% AoE damage reduction isn't kind of silly?
well ask sejuani about her ult,tanks tend to have this heavy utility in order to compete with bruisers,one has more utility,the other has more damage,I gave you rumble as a top laner with more mainstream abilities for this reason.
A Slime Appears2 votes"my point is(and remains),that melee adcs are retarded in complete disregard to the state of ranged carries,or ranged top laners,or anything at all for that matter,glass canon melee dps is cancer,it cannot be anything else. "
Yeah, then your point's wrong. I'm too lazy to search for it but a red admitted ADCs like Ashe were the reason broken (at the time) MADCs like Xin and Irelia came about. I believe it was Morello.
"and how much competitive play does quinn see? It's not that ranged champs shit on most top laners,it's that meta champions shit on everyone,nothing new here,rumble will shit on most melees just as much as lissandra will.(assuming the players are good)"
Probably because her passive is pretty buggy and doesn't always go off when you E, and if you cancel a passive-enhanced AA too early it does 0 damage, bugs that have existed for god knows how long. In competitive play you can't afford problems like that.
"well,if you think about it,the weaknesses of tanks(maokai) isn't hard cc,but more their reliance on their teammates and to a lesser extent kiting,invulnerability on an assassin/madc counteracts their weakness and destroys counterplay,invunerability on a tank...makes him tankier,not a big deal.
well ask sejuani about her ult,tanks tend to have this heavy utility in order to compete with bruisers,one has more utility,the other has more damage,I gave you rumble as a top laner with more mainstream abilities for this reason."
Not really sure what you are trying to prove with these two paragraphs, or what they have to do with anything. Regardless, a red already lampooned your "point" so there isn't a lot to say. MADCs are broken because they have to be.
Chaotic Reks1 votesso take away 
's true damage?
manbearswine2 votesI mean, thats WHY they're melee carries. They're the equivalent of ADCs, but have minimal counterplay to make up for being an inherently flawed concept.
ftfy(and for the love of dog remember,counterpicks=/=counterplay)
Narasimha2 votesThen counterBUILD. 
Or hell, in the case of Yi and Fiora, just cc and kill them. Trynd is rarely in teamfights anyway, just outpush him.
manbearswine1 votesThen counterBUILD.
it's as if armor pen isn't insanely efficient on them.
Or hell, in the case of Yi and Fiora, just cc and kill them. Trynd is rarely in teamfights anyway, just outpush him.
oh great,again with the just cc them arugment,you see they kinda sorta have a lot of mobility and even invunerability to avoid skillshot based cc,meaning you need point click roots/stuns,which are rare enough to not be counterplay,but counterpicks.
and yeah trynd is more of split pusher than a melee adc,and is the least bad of the bunch.
Bears Dont Care2 votesit's as if armor pen isn't insanely efficient on them.
Armor pen mitigates armor, it doesn't negate it, nor does it negate the effects of Frozen heart and thornmail ether.
manbearswine1 votesArmor pen mitigates armor, it doesn't negate it, nor does it negate the effects of Frozen heart and thornmail ether.
neither do thornmail or frozen heart negate attack speed or ad damage in general,they mitigate it.
Bears Dont Care1 votesneither do thornmail or frozen heart negate attack speed or ad damage in general,they mitigate it.
My point was, before your passive aggressive post, was that mentioning void staff and last whisper as if they negate tank stats is a poor one. You lose some of the effectiveness of your tank, not all of it.
manbearswine1 votesMy point was, before your passive aggressive post, was that mentioning void staff and last whisper as if they negate tank stats is a poor one. You lose some of the effectiveness of your tank, not all of it.
And my point was, before your passive aggresive post, was that mentioning frozen heart/thornmail/morellonomicon as if they negate offensive stats/healing is a poor one. you lose some of the effectiveness of your madc, not all of it.
Bears Dont Care1 votesAnd my point was
Mirroring someone else's post isn't establishing any other point besides the fact you are obnoxious. If you cannot deal with someone arguing with you, don't post on the internet.
The various items are designed with the intent of not entirely negating someone's toolset. An mADC or rADC is going to have LW,BC, and the like to make sure their damage can be maintained to a degree. Complaining about their existence is foolish, as we have seen what occured when tanks were at their greatest just as we have seen with power creep.
manbearswine1 votesMirroring someone else's post isn't establishing any other point besides the fact you are obnoxious. If you cannot deal with someone arguing with you, don't post on the internet. The various items are designed with the intent of not entirely negating someone's toolset.
I mirrored your post so that you will understand by yourself how nonsensical your original post was,these items sort of help,but they are only viable on tanks,who are going to be build them anyway so calling them a "counterbuild" is being full of shit,if orianna builds randuins to help her deal with yasuo,she completely fucks herself over.
An mADC or rADC is going to have LW,BC, and the like to make sure their damage can be maintained to a degree. Complaining about their existence is foolish, as we have seen what occured when tanks were at their greatest just as we have seen with power creep.
ranged adcs are fine,because they have well defined strengths(high dps) and well defined weaknesses(squishy and need to maintain safety and be peeled for to deal their damage),madc,although having rather well defined strength have nonsensical weaknesses,obviously you can't peel for them,as they need to be in other faces to begin with,positioning again isn't their weakness,as they once again have to be in other faces,their weakness is then a lockdown,but due to their squishiness that weakness is overwhelming,so they are given tools to avoid(extreame mobility,invunerability,windwall) it making them an idiotic mess.
once again a madc are champions like yi/fiora,who build glass canon dps and are played as glass canon dps,NOT jax/irelia.
Bears Dont Care1 votesI mirrored your post so that you will understand by yourself how nonsensical your original post was,these items sort of help,but they are only viable on tanks,who are going to be build them anyway so calling them a "counterbuild" is being full of shit,if orianna builds randuins to help her deal with yasuo,she completely fucks herself over.
You mirrored the post because you made an assumption, and in turn, decided to make an ass of yourself. Congratulations, good job. The purpose of my reply was addressing the issue of itemization. Of people, like yourself, bringing up LW/BC when its ment to counter the items I listed previously.
In other words, the subject as itemization, and was quite obvious if you had paid attention instead of bashing your face into the keyboard with the first thing to draw your ire.
manbearswine1 votesYou mirrored the post because you made an assumption, and in turn, decided to make an ass of yourself. Congratulations, good job.
nope,you claimed those items are some magical solution to madc,which they aren't,and continue making an idiot out of yourself even though you yourself realize how bad your point is.
The purpose of my reply was addressing the issue of itemization.
no it wasn't,in fact at no point you even said there's an issue with itemization,you just mentioned those items as a "counterbuild" to madc,which is utter nonsense.
Of people, like yourself, bringing up LW/BC when its ment to counter the items I listed previously.
In other words, the subject as itemization, and was quite obvious if you had paid attention instead of bashing your face into the keyboard with the first thing to draw your ire.
no,the subject was madc having no counterplay,you claming those items were a counterbuild even though the only ones who they are viable on will build them anyway,you realized that they actually aren't counterplay to madc,and now are just spewing nonsense.
Bears Dont Care1 votesnope,you claimed those items are some magical solution to madc,which they aren't,and continue making an idiot out of yourself even though you yourself realize how bad your point is.
Really? Ctrl+F those exact words for me bud. Can't find it? Probably because I didn't say it. You clearly have no idea what my point was, despite my stating it.
Those items are meant to help you survive and counterbuild against them, not completely nullify their effectiveness. If an item does that, then it may be a problem.
no it wasn't,in fact at no point you even said there's an issue with itemization,you just mentioned those items as a "counterbuild" to madc,which is utter nonsense.'
Oh, pardon Annoth84, I didn't know I was speaking to myself. Oh wait, you're not me. Itemization is a part of counterbuilding but not the crux of it all.
no,the subject was madc having no counterplay,you claming those items were a counterbuild even though the only ones who they are viable on will build them anyway,you realized that they actually aren't counterplay to madc,and now are just spewing nonsense.
They have counterplay, you're just upset it isn't as easy as building an FH or thornmail. mADC are melee, they are more easily focued and harder to peel for than rADC.
Bears Dont Care1 votesmaybe you should read what you're saying then,when I said they lack counterplay you replied "then counterbuild with these items",which is 100% pure BS.
Perhaps you should read, that was Narasimha. My name, is not Narasimha.
please,as if I didn't hear those moronic arguments 20 times before,"just rush qss","just dodge the spears","just stack armor on a fucking carry"
no I'm upset that I have to pick from a very specific set of champions who are capable to cc them even with their immense mobility and invunerabilities.
They require it, they don't have range of escape options like Lucian
you don't peel for a melee adc,he is melee,he wants to be in people's faces,and they aren't easy to focus because they have some silly mechanics(immense mobility+windwall/invunerability/death immunity(note that once again,trynd is the smallest offender from madc,as he is more of a dedicated splitpusher)),when they are strong they force out very specific picks because very few champions can cc them reliably(as again,most roots/stuns/knockups are skillshot based),just ask pretty much anyone who is a "fan" of cancer samurai why they detest him so much,fiora and yi share that stupidity,just not it's former power level(when yasuo was banned every game)
They still need peel... Just... whatever stay mad.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
manbearswine2 votesO-o why do people keep saying champions like fiora, trynd, and yi have no counterplay when you can simply kill them with pretty much any non-support champion? Even tankier support champions can stand up to them right now. The counterplay is to simply ignore their underpowered kits and destroy them using the superior kits of any semi-decent champion.
well,you're severly exaggerating,but you are right that they are mostly not very strong,and that their counterplay lies there,my point is that they aren't allowed to be strong because their concept is incredibly stupid and toxic,riot is aware,and riot doesn't allow them to be strong,ranged adcs have nothing to do with that.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
manbearswine2 votesNot really, even if they were buffed to being viable, they would still have huge flaws that any semi-decent player could take advantage of. Champions like fiora, yi, and trynd have very few paths that they can take when engaging and/or disengaging that they are extremely easy to plan around.
Take fiora for example, even if she was buffed to the point where she is semi-competitive, she will still have only one approach into a fight with no disengage. Because of this, she is extremely to play around and has to fight the other team on their terms. She will still be a karthus without the global range or wall of pain to back up her damage.
I just had a game with a fiora a few hours ago,somehow for whatever reason she got fed,boy did the enemy team have a lot of time for reaction and counterplay when she just dashed at them and the moment she saw any cc incoming ulted,they sure had a lot of fun dying from that uncounterable combo.
the whole point in their current lack of competitive viability is their binary nature,they will put out their burst,either it's enough and then they are stupid,or it's not enough and then they are useless,making them competitive viable will simply be done by making the first option more likely,if fiora/yi ever become serious competitive picks they will have prerework kassadins banrate out of it.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
manbearswine1 votesExcept everything that applies to fiora also applies to karthus and karthus was never a problem when he was competitively viable. Sure fiora does a lot of damage while invulnerable when fed but so does karthus. There is just as much "counterplay" to a fiora ult as there is to a karthus defile/ult while in his passibe. However, karthus was never problematic while viable despite being binary in his high damage global range ult so there is absolutely no reason to believe fiora would be. There is an extremely large middle ground between being too strong and being too weak even for the most binary champions in a dota style game.
you know that,while in his passive,he is immobile? also he is immobile before using his passive,and actually needs to die to use his passive,and aside from his ult needs to get his immobile self to somehow be in range to deal damage from his passive.
when fiora and yi kill themselves in order to ult,and will only be able to apply one skill reliably then we will have something to talk about.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
manbearswine1 votesO-o you do realize that karthus does a ton of reliable damage before dieing right? Karthus doesn't need to die to do damage, the other team has to kill him to minimize the damage he does and even then, he will do more guaranteed damage than a champion like fiora. Seriously, just compare what karthus contributes to a team fight and what fiora contributes. Karthus outclasses fiora in every catagory and even then he was not problematic when he was viable. There is absolutely no reason to believe fiora would be problematic if viable.
so don't teamfight against karthus? melee adcs can also duel splitpush and roam,can karthus do that? yes if you play to karthus's biggest strengths he is strong,in fact he would be broken under that logic,karthus teamfights much stronger than almost anyone else.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
manbearswine1 votesYou seem to be missing the point. Everything that you can do against karthus you can do against fiora even better. Sure karthus can't stop an irelia or jax split push but neither can fiora. Sure karthus can't stop his lane opponent from roaming but neither can fiora. Here is the point: karthus can do everything better than fiora and even then, he was never problematic when he was viable. There is absolutely no reason to believe that fiora would be any more problematic than karthus if she was buffed to a viable level.
you seem to be missing the point,fiora CAN splitpush by herself,karthus can't,fiora CAN roam(not only that,leaving a fiora alone to roam should cost you a tower,leaving a karthus alone...meh),karthus can't,karthus can teamfight(and offer some global presence after a certain point in laning,that is if his laning partner doesn't interrupt him) that's all he does,so obviously he is gonna be good at it.
Also, who is saying that karthus is much stronger than almost anyone else in team fights? He is clearly better than fiora but that doesn't automatically make him the best. Fiora is just really weak.
no,his skillset makes him a really strong teamfighter,doesn't have much to do with fiora.
