An potential (Yet extremely daft) idea to balance crit ADCs and their "counterplay" against melee.

Crimson Zeppelin··1 votes·733 views

This is a VERY long post.

What I have always thought about critical chance based marksmen is how "unrealistic" they are even in video game standards. You may say "...What the hell are you talking about." But hear me out.

They have NO RECOIL, but can shoot ACCURATELY HEADSHOT and RAPIDFIRE while MOVING. Let's say you play a mainstream shooter game. You would quickly know this is BUSTED. It is simply unreal.

So why not introduce a inner status called "Deviancy/Accuracy?". If you moved drastically (Such as a Tristana jump or a Xayah ult, dashed a long way) or fired your ranged weapon several times, this rate will change depending on champion and will affect your damage you will deal. Below is an (daft) example and is meant to expand imagination.

100% accuracy - This will do most efficient critical damage while applying infinity edge. 70% accuracy - The shot will deal critical, will apply infinity edge on a lower ratio. If you move more aim will deviate rapidly and IE damage will lower. Below 50% accuracy - Shot has strayed its mark. Champion needs to reposition.

Tristana - The large and heavy cannon she holds means her default accuracy while moving on foot will be 95% ,Jump will cost 25% accuracy that will additionally rapidly deplete if she moves after. Rapidfire needs stabilizing if shot too often. E will regenerate accuracy.

Graves - Shotguns ain't about accuracy with that large recoil. BUT, Graves is buff enough to hold the gun stable to a 100% for one shot while moving and using E once. But will rapidly deviate if gun shots more than two times, reloads.

Jhin - He has a large pistol, but is trained well in the Ionian secret society. (Meta reasons include since he is a champion with no escape) Default moving accuracy 100% and will not lower more than 50% and accuracy will increase if the target is rooted or is on a trap. 4th shot will do 100% accuracy.

So what will it bring into the game? Well I just thought for quite a while and came up with four.

1st is the "Potential reward for melee". If you make the marksman run, their aim will be unstable and cannot hit vital spots. Thus pulling in a marksmen with, say a Darius E is largely rewarded. Your whole team might benefit from that play!

2nd is the "Reward for picking immobile ranged over ranged with escapes" since they are planted to the ground, they get a tiny amount of accuracy points by default or more.

3rd is, "Rewards for playing support clean." If you are able to give room for you marksmen, the more safely and accurate they can shoot. (Also, no more excuses for marksmen to be in the wrong spot. Since it would now be their fault by game system that they cannot aim proper. Not by responsibility of support.)

4th is "Itemization" Now tanks bruisers can buy items that would deflect poorly aimed bullets, and crit itemization NEEDS to be lategame with this new stat introduced. Thus keeping us free from the 2nd powerspike nightmare we had last season. Even if something so broken as ardent censer arrives, what good it would do if their marksmen cannot aim?

Thank you for your patience of reading this post, with my poor grammatical skills.

(Note: Above was an idea inspired off from my favorite game "Armored core" which is a fiesta of ingame moving stats. IE: About how thick your armor is and if it has holes, how your scope has flailed due to concussion, how you balanced your weight of your robot on left to right. Has your targeting computer focused its darn lens. You get the notion.)

16 Comments

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

I don't like this idea.

  1. This is a nerf which Marksmen clearly don't need right now.

  2. This doesn't encourage the sustained DPS Marksmen is known for. Rather, this encourages shooting 2 or 3 times, and then doing nothing for a few seconds before doing it again. Guess who also does this? Burst champions. They blow their load and then they have to wait before they can do it again. Do we really want Marksmen to turn into shittier burst champions?

  3. This will completely dick over kiting and stutter stepping, one of the last strengths Marksmen have left after being completely outclassed in botlane.

Crimson Zeppelin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlgOfAzg,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-25T16:08:44.875+0000)

I don't like this idea.

  1. This is a nerf which Marksmen clearly don't need right now.

  2. This doesn't encourage the sustained DPS Marksmen is known for. Rather, this encourages shooting 2 or 3 times, and then doing nothing for a few seconds before doing it again. Guess who also does this? Burst champions. They blow their load and then they have to wait before they can do it again. Do we really want Marksmen to turn into shittier burst champions?

  3. This will completely dick over kiting and stutter stepping, two very important parts of League.

  1. Sadly they clearly deserve this sort of balance. How many immobile carries were not picked at all? This is a HUGE issue for years that plagues not only botlane, but the balance of melee carries as a whole as well.

2, 3. I counterbalanced this issue by adding in mechanics such as "Adding accuracy" like Tristana's bomb. (Maybe we can allow steroids can add it up as well since it seems more realistic for marksmen to bolster their aim when focusing?) And I also said accuracy will decrease if said champion "moved drastically" (Such as Tristana jump, xayah ult). That is a LOT to move and must be punished rather than a "free out of jail card", but not as severely for a death. And orbwalking will be punished significantly lower for this penalty and will gain a plus with said above buffs. Using your champion kit PERFECTLY will reward you. If you stand turret mode, THEN blow your mobility card and run for the hills, it would deem you as unskilled and you will recieve backlash for the strategy you took. Simple.

Also, marksmen are still dominant on botlane. Bruisers and mages simply became VIABLE. ...The only problem is swain and vlad which trumps all.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlgOfAzg,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-07-25T16:17:30.957+0000)

  1. Sadly they clearly deserve this sort of balance. How many immobile carries were not picked at all? This is a HUGE issue for years that plagues not only botlane, but the balance of melee carries as a whole as well.

What do you mean "clearly deserve this sort of balance"?

It's not like mobile Marksmen are out of control or anything.

2, 3. I counterbalanced this issue by adding in mechanics such as "Adding accuracy" such as Tristana's bomb. (Maybe we can add attack speed steroids can add it up as well since it seems more realistic for marksmen to bolster their aim when focusing?)

"Counterbalanced this issue"?

What?

You are the one who made the issue in the first place.

And I also said accuracy will decrease if said champion "moved drastically" (Such as Tristana jump, xayah ult). That is a LOT to move and must be punished rather than a "free out of jail card", but not as severely for a death. And orbwalking will be punished significantly lower for this penalty and will gain a plus with said above buffs. Using your champion kit PERFECTLY will reward you. If you stand turret mode, THEN blow your mobility card it would deem you as unskilled and you will recieve backlash for the strategy you took. Simple.

"Must be punished"?

"Deem you as unskilled"?

"You will receive backlash for the "strategy" you took"?

What the hell does this all mean?

I just checked your match history.

It seems this sudden hatred for Tristana stems from this match:

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2832813305/247326093?tab=overview

You were playing as Brand, obviously a skill shot based champion.

I'm assuming the Tristana dodged most of your attacks and now you've come to whine for nerfs on the boards?

I'm detecting some underlying level of bias here.

Crimson Zeppelin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlgOfAzg,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-25T16:37:41.136+0000)

What do you mean "clearly deserve this sort of balance"?

It's not like mobile Marksmen are out of control or anything.

"Counterbalanced this issue"?

What?

You are the one who made the issue in the first place.

"Must be punished"?

"Deem you as unskilled"?

"You will receive backlash for the "strategy" you took"?

What the hell does this all mean?

I just checked your match history.

It seems this sudden hatred for Tristana stems from this match:

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2832813305/247326093?tab=overview

You were playing as Brand, obviously a skill shot based champion.

I'm assuming the Tristana dodged most of your attacks?

I'm detecting some underlying level of bias here.

That is a bloody ARAM game. And that Tristana performed poorly by using her jump into us 4 times and had 14 deaths in total. I also won the game fair and square with a 10/5/14 score with a "gj" from my team...Why are you netstalking a stranger and then puffing your chest like you are the next Sherlock holmes while it is POOR EVIDENCE to prove my background and side of the argument. I hope you don't try this attempt often. It is embarassing.

I do not even own brand. He was free this week and it got automatically picked in ARAM. WHAT did I do to offend you this badly to make you hostile as an Dalek?

Second, why did you ignore my reasonings behind the paradox of the game relating to "ranged" and "immobile melee" and punishing bad positioning is not enough to compensate in this current status of the game.

Go and play Garen against Ezreal Janna. See what happens you get a zero chance right? No reward even in landing a silence. The outcome is SET. Isn't that just bad game design

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlgOfAzg,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-25T16:48:06.829+0000)

That is a bloody ARAM game.

You're contradicting yourself.

You cleary said: "This is a HUGE issue for years that plagues not only botlane, but the balance of melee carries as a whole "

HUGE issue that transcends bot lane?

Affects the balance as a whole?

That should apply to ARAM games as well.

And that Tristana performed poorly by using her jump into us 4 times.

What does this have to do with the argument?

Also why are you netstalking a stranger

Because I need evidence.

and then puffing your chest like you are the next Sherlock holmes

I didn't.

I just want to test your claims.

while it is POOR EVIDENCE to prove my background and side of the argument. I hope you don't try this attempt often. It is embarassing.

  1. "Poor evidence" capitalized for no reason.

  2. Trying to excuse it by saying it's an ARAM game.

  3. Trying to excuse it by saying the Tristana played poorly.

  4. Accusing me of netstalking.

  5. Accusing me of acting like Sherlock Holmes.

  6. Calling me embarassing.

  7. Trying to excuse it by saying you don't even own Brand, which is barely an argument at all.

This, coupled with the fact that this was your last game played, and you mentioning Tristana quite often, leads me to believe that this match did in fact have an effect on this post's creation.

Second, why did you ignore my reasonings behind the paradox of the game relating to "ranged" and "immobile melee"

What "paradox"?

and punishing bad positioning is not enough to compensate in this current status of the game.

How so?

You've still yet to show me any evidence to even suggest that mobile Marksmen are overpowered, and that melee carries are struggling for some reason.

Go and play Garen against Ezreal Janna. See what happens you get a zero chance right? No reward even in landing a silence. The outcome is SET. Isn't that just bad game design

And yet, Garen has one of the highest win rates right now, despite being "severely outclassed by ranged champions and having "zero chance" and having no rewards and the outcome being set and it's bad game design and it's so unfair boohoo".

https://i.imgur.com/X3b5umq.png

Crimson Zeppelin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlgOfAzg,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-25T17:07:57.917+0000)

You're contradicting yourself.

You cleary said: "This is a HUGE issue for years that plagues not only botlane, but the balance of melee carries as a whole "

HUGE issue that transcends bot lane?

Affects the balance as a whole?

That should apply to ARAM games as well.

What does this have to do with the argument?

Because I need evidence.

I didn't.

I just want to test your claims.

  1. "Poor evidence" capitalized for no reason.

  2. Trying to excuse it by saying it's an ARAM game.

  3. Trying to excuse it by saying the Tristana played poorly.

  4. Accusing me of netstalking.

  5. Accusing me of acting like Sherlock Holmes.

  6. Calling me embarassing.

  7. Trying to excuse it by saying you don't even own Brand, which is barely an argument at all.

This, coupled with the fact that this was your last game played, and you mentioning Tristana quite often, leads me to believe that this match did in fact have an effect on this post's creation.

What "paradox"?

How so?

You've still yet to show me any evidence to even suggest that mobile Marksmen are overpowered, and that melee carries are struggling for some reason.

And yet, Garen has one of the highest win rates right now, despite being "severely outclassed by ranged champions and having "zero chance" and having no rewards and the outcome being set and it's bad game design and it's so unfair boohoo".

https://i.imgur.com/X3b5umq.png

...You are illogical or manic. I'm out of words. You do not provide any sort of meaningful output. At least a few people can give very insightful details and change my perspective upon this game. Unlike you.

Try making your own argument rather than lazilly repeating and quoting my words and throwing them back at me.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlgOfAzg,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-25T17:10:05.351+0000)

...You are illogical or manic. I'm out of words. You do not provide any sort of meaningful output. At least a few people can give very insightful details and change my perspective upon this game. Unlike you.

A cheap excuse, but fair enough.

I shall leave you alone.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

This is interesting but I agree with Warlord Rhinark, this would hurt marksmen unnecessarily and it would force a shift in their basic function within the game that would overall harm role balance amongst the roles.

If you want to limit marksmen somehow, give them all ammo like Jhin and Graves has. But this too would be a really big shift that probably isn't necessary nor even what most players would want.

Crimson Zeppelin1 votes

{quoted}

This is interesting but I agree with Warlord Rhinark, this would hurt marksmen unnecessarily and it would force a shift in their basic function within the game that would overall harm role balance amongst the roles.

If you want to limit marksmen somehow, give them all ammo like Jhin and Graves has. But this too would be a really big shift that probably isn't necessary nor even what most players would want.

Hmmm...I tried to balance the issue of melee vs ranged relating the "target computer accuracy" and "Concussion and stablization" factor of my favorite game listed in my opening post.

"Force a shift in their basic function". Can you elaborate on that? Maybe there is something crucial I missed. What will they change into if these changes are applied?

HalcyonDweller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlgOfAzg,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-07-25T17:17:57.517+0000)

Hmmm...I tried to balance the issue of melee vs ranged relating the "target computer accuracy" and "Concussion and stablization" factor of my favorite game listed in my opening post.

League is not a shooter, it is a MOBA, a form of RTS. It's not supposed to operate like shooter games. Especially if that would interfere with the basic functionality of the game.

"Force a shift in their basic function". Can you elaborate on that? Maybe there is something crucial I missed. What will they change into?

Warlord Rhinark explained it, they would become shittier burst characters and would no longer be able to kite.

If you want a functional example of something similar to your ideas here, look at DOTA 2, they have turn-speeds, which limit your ability to attack while moving, basically in order to attack, your character has to turn around and then fire off their auto-attack, because it takes time to turn, the character stops in place longer than in league.

Crimson Zeppelin1 votes

{quoted}

League is not a shooter, it is a MOBA, a form of RTS. It's not supposed to operate like shooter games. Especially if that would interfere with the basic functionality of the game.

Warlord Rhinark explained it, they would become shittier burst characters and would no longer be able to kite.

If you want a functional example of something similar to your ideas here, look at DOTA 2, they have turn-speeds, which limit your ability to attack while moving, basically in order to attack, your character has to turn around and then fire off their auto-attack, because it takes time to turn, the character stops in place longer than in league.

The thing is, I did not introduce a function that will slow, stun or jam the adcs gun or anything, they will attack unefficently shortly after being punished of their positioning. They can kite for the first fraction, but inefficiently damage wise and need to fend off survive the duration. I say even no longer than 1.7 seconds, but punishments will be severe if you continue to "run" rather than "kiting using your skills".

Ahh...I heard that Dota feature. Is this rather too drastic for league?...Do they even have ADC's there?

HalcyonDweller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JlgOfAzg,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-25T17:35:23.334+0000)

The thing is, I did not introduce a function that will slow, stun or jam the adcs gun or anything, they will attack unefficently shortly after being punished of their positioning. They can kite for the first fraction, but inefficiently damage wise and need to fend off survive the duration. I say even no longer than 1.7 seconds, but punishments will be severe if you continue to "run" rather than "kiting using your skills".

Like I said initially, it's certainly a cool idea, I just don't think it's necessary for league. It's like trying to make your car faster by strapping a jet engine to it. Way too big a change just to solve a much smaller problem.

Ahh...I heard that Dota feature. Is this rather too drastic for league?...Do they even have ADC's there?

I wouldn't know first-hand, I haven't actually played DOTA 2. It's just something I've heard about. Pretty sure the game is free on steam though, so go give it a try if you want.

Ravenhale1 votes

I think it would be hilarious if all ranged autos were coded like skill shots that could collide with other hitboxes. You'd still point and click, but the projectile could be intercepted by other champions or minions.

Crimson Zeppelin1 votes

{quoted}

I think it would be hilarious if all ranged autos were coded like skill shots that could collide with other hitboxes. You'd still point and click, but the projectile could be intercepted by other champions or minions.

If you want realism to a hardcore level. There you go. But I think league's marksmen are not THAT bad at aiming lol

But again, it may be a GREAT idea for future games to refrence.

Ravenhale1 votes

It sort of exists with Lulu. Her pix passive will hit a minion in front of the low health minion you are trying to get.

Crimson Zeppelin1 votes

{quoted}

It sort of exists with Lulu. Her pix passive will hit a minion in front of the low health minion you are trying to get.

The merits of this, as like the real world, tanks will be the prime focus over infantry of the game and will prompt Riot to properly balance it. The bad new is...in this game, anti-personnel aircrafts basically exists as assassins and since "primary target" IS the marksmen for some unholy reason, our situation won't change. So this is why I made the above solution. A carefully aimed shot WILL pierce armor, but aimed poorly it won't.

An expression of skill aside from stat-checking and kiting needs to be refound anew.

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