DeadMan's Plate "crowds out choices"

GigglesO··10 votes·615 views

Everyone is free to their own interpretations, but this is how I see it.... Instead of downvoting, please atleast try and have a discussion.

item 3075 with less than 500-600 armor this item will not counter adc's. They can life steal off the damage and pen most of the armor. (situational)

item 3110 Gives armor, which is great against all ad teams, but with no health to back it up, it doesn't work well. (again situational)

item 3056 Is still in the game why? It would be great if you could protect your towers with it, but the situation doesn't normally arise where the active is better than the bonus resistances from another item.

item 3026 Gives a nice revive, so that tanks can die a second time... (Situational Item)

item 3512 Sweet! A pushing item for tanks that works off of... hit points... and isn't strong enough to push a tower without one full duration of the item.

item 3025 Finally, an item that scales of of tanking! Too bad you need to now build health in order to survive...

item 3157 Great active! Great Stats... but its for mages.

item 3143, item 3068 , and item 3742 are basically the same item, but reducing crits is situational, and not all tanks do as well with sunfire cape, bonus movement is the easy answer....

So where am I getting with all of this? Well against a full ad team, as a "tank", the items of "choice" are going to be item 3047 because you need boots, item 3143 because you need crit reduction, item 3068 because you need hp and armor), item 3742 because you are exceedingly slow without it. item 3083, because health is still more valued than armor. For the last item, I would suggest thornmail, but it really is "situational"

However, as a "Juggernaut" You would much rather have HP items, and just try and soak the damage, with something like a item 3748 /item 3053

On top of all of that... this is all out the window if they have any mages... item 3075 item 3110 become exceedingly less useful.

21 Comments

Critmaster Garen5 votes

well, here is the thing.

item 3068 was a bruiser item once because rushing it added a lot of magic damage in extended duels like theyre common in top lane. 40 magic damage per second early game was a really significant power spike. since the aura nerf to level scaling, its basically 800 gold for some extra waveclear.

item 3143 is the only contender to dead mans. but if you look at the components, a item 1031 is often easier to pick up than a item 3082 for some quick armor when going back into lane. which makes it a natural choice to finish dead mans from there on out. it really just feels like a matter of pacing when it comes to the price of the components.

randuins is attractive because its very slot effective, but also a little more uncomfortable to build and a little bit more expensive. also, its active only becomes really useful once youre already in melee range. but then its a great item to stick.

item 3742 is a really good rush early on due to its utility. youre back faster in lane after recalling, you can roam better, you can follow up engages of your tank better.

tl;dr randuins and dead mans are good items generally in a good spot. sunfire is trash for ad bruisers simply because its passive is useless after the nerf. i wouldnt touch it with a 10 ft pole even if they made it 100 gold cheaper or gave it 5 more armor or 50 more health.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

oh, by the way i agree on the other items.

item 3075 feels completely usless if youre not 600 armor malphite. ive tried building it on garen once after the change with 300 armor total, and had an ashe lifesteal through it as if it was nothing.

item 3110 is a very specific item. its a lot of gold for nothing but armor in defense, which leaves you pretty vulnerable to magic damage. and item 3035 negates 30% of that armor for 1300 gold.

90% of the time, armor + health is simply more attractive than pure armor.

GigglesO2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JiTNKE9I,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-27T02:58:12.839+0000)

90% of the time, armor + health is simply more attractive than pure armor.

Not even mentioning that anything that gives move speed at all is attractive to tanks.

ShadowJezus4 votes

Personally I see this as a classic moment of Riot having absolutely no fucking clue what they're doing. It's not that we're building DMP because it's so good that invalidates every other option. It's that even before DMP came out that all the items it's "pushing out" were subpar to the point of uselessness and the ONLY reason we built them was because it was still better than just leaving the slot empty (even if it's just barely).

A better decision would be to strengthen the other items so we have a couple GOOD items to pick from instead of merely settling with THE ITEM THAT SUCKS THE LEAST.

GigglesO2 votes

{quoted}

Personally I see this as a classic moment of Riot having absolutely no fucking clue what they're doing. It's not that we're building DMP because it's so good that invalidates every other option. It's that even before DMP came out that all the items it's "pushing out" were subpar to the point of uselessness and the ONLY reason we built them was because it was still better than just leaving the slot empty (even if it's just barely).

A better decision would be to strengthen the other items so we have a couple GOOD items to pick from instead of merely settling with THE ITEM THAT SUCKS THE LEAST.

Then funny thing is that almost everyone so far has agreed in this post that the other items are subpar.

kile1472 votes

I'd like to see a tank item/mastery designed to stop enemies from healing off you, doesn't apply GWounds but reduces all lifesteal, spell vamps, and similar effects by X% when targeted at you.

Brockinroll2 votes

I would like to see more item choices for tanks, especially for magic resist. I miss the old item Force of Nature, its been a loong time since its been removed and not many great magic resist choices have been implemented since then. Clear choice is either item 3065 item 3102 . item 3190 is also nice but does not give alot of mr. besides these items(there are more, but dont fit into every tanks build) there are no really strong mr choices. item 3512 is somewhat of an option if you really need it or item 3026

GigglesO2 votes

{quoted}

I would like to see more item choices for tanks, especially for magic resist.

Sadly I find myself building item 3156 as a magic resist item on my tanks... even rammus... Which shouldn't be happening.

Brockinroll1 votes

what are you trying to say, nerf deadmans?

GigglesO3 votes

{quoted}

what are you trying to say, nerf deadmans?

No, I'm trying to say that they need to work on their other items. For a tank, movement speed is just a clear choice over everything else because of how slow they are. If tanks moved as fast as LeeSin I'm pretty sure there would be a lot fewer item 3742 being purchased.

That, and in any given game, the clear itemization all includes building hp.... Building armor without health does close to nothing.

Erockandroll1 votes

If you ask me, your comparing the wrong items. You said many of these items a niche, and that's perfectly fine, as long as the fulfill in said niche.

Frozen Heart may not be the best over all tank item due to only having armor. However, Due to it's CDR and Mana, it's perfect for Caster tanks, who have a lot of CC and defensive mechanics tied into their abilities. ICB fills a similar niche, but trades some of the tankyness for damage and a slow.

Guardian angle isn't really made for tanks. It's designed to give you a second wind, Which is way more useful on a Bruiser. (or even a glass cannon.)

Ohm wrecker and portal are pretty bad if you think of them as Tank items. The active on Ohm wrecker doesn't really matter for a tank as their defenses, (especially high Armor) already make diving turrets fairly safe. Not to mention that A) it's only useful to divers who have the tools to pull off a dive, and b) is only useful when turrets are still up. While portal, is completely counter intuitive. Since it gives tanks the ability to split push, Which isn't why you play a tank. At best these items would make sense on supports. and a lot of times that would be a stretch.

But as for the comparison to DMP, it was meant to be a Juggernaut item, But I would say it's closes competitor to having a similar effect is Righteous Glory. Though they give different stats, they are both meant to speed your way into a fight. The only functional difference is that RG may be better at teamfights for it's instant initiation power, while DMP is better for chasing.

Riot mentioned this before, but the main case for nerfind DMP would be, is it mitigating the juggernauts speed disadvantage to effectively? (when combined with the rage from black cleaver) I would probably say yes, not only because of people having trouble kiting them. (not actually sure of this.) But also because the general 60 MS overland, gives them a lot of pressure simply by being able to cross the map more quickly. (almost like they have a boots of mobility.) So I would take the max MS down a notch, but I might also recommend touching the CC affects to the momentum stacking. If people use CC to help them kite, DMP shouldn't completely counter that.

GigglesO2 votes

{quoted}

If you ask me, your comparing the wrong items. You said many of these items a niche, and that's perfectly fine, as long as the fulfill in said niche.

But as for the comparison to DMP, it was meant to be a Juggernaut item, But I would say it's closes competitor to having a similar effect is Righteous Glory. Though they give different stats, they are both meant to speed your way into a fight. The only functional difference is that RG may be better at teamfights for it's instant initiation power, while DMP is better for chasing.

I could be wrong, but I think the real issue with using item 3800 is that it gives mana... champions like Garen, Mordekaiser ,DrMundo can't use it without wasting gold. On top of that, the champs that can use it are instead just instead building item 3742 for the ms, and then building item 3025 to instead slow the enemy. This is because it has damage attached, instead of just mana and move speed. If anything, I'm seeing item 3800 built mostly on supports that need mana, and the extra health stat.

I also think champions like malphite and rammus would also like to have the armor over mana.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

I could be wrong, but I think the real issue with using item 3800 is that it gives mana... champions like Garen, Mordekaiser ,DrMundo can't use it without wasting gold. On top of that, the champs that can use it are instead just instead building item 3742 for the ms, and then building item 3025 to instead slow the enemy. This is because it has damage attached, instead of just mana and move speed. If anything, I'm seeing item 3800 built mostly on supports that need mana, and the extra health stat.

I also think champions like malphite and rammus would also like to have the armor over mana.

Possibly, but Garen, Mord, and Mundo are Juggernauts. Champions for DMP was made for. Mean while, the Mana of RG helps the caster tanks. (though granted, Ramus and Malphite would do well with DMP.)

As for the reason why I compare it to RG is because they offer similar utility, even though they offer similar utility. When you compared items with similar levels of HP and Armor, You claimed that Sunfire and Randuins are incredibly niche making DMP the go to item for tanks because the MS is always helpful.

Is this Actually a bad thing? I would argue that items that are Niche, arn't bad as long as they are actually doing what they are designed to do. And actually if you buffed them, your risk making their niche becoming OP. And if the Niche is working as intended, DMP won't make those niches a moot point.

This then begs the question, is their a problem with DMP being a general tank item? Which is why I ask if it's crowding out the RG option. Since they have similar effects. And even if it was, that may just mean we should buff RG instead of Nerfing DMP, and that would depend more on the Health of DMP's game state. (Which wouldn't likely have much bearing on other tank items.)

GigglesO2 votes

{quoted}

This then begs the question, is there a problem with DMP being a general tank item? Which is why I ask if it's crowding out the RG option. Since they have similar effects. And even if it was, that may just mean we should buff RG instead of Nerfing DMP, and that would depend more on the Health of DMP's game state. (Which wouldn't likely have much bearing on other tank items.)

I actually think you have a really good point here. Maybe dead-man's plate should be the "general tank item" like randuins had been for so many years. I also think that you could be right about righteous glory being put into the alternative to the movespeed that deadmans plate gives.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

they nerfed it already. 100 health and 10 armor. i thought that was a fucking huge nerf to it. I mean sure its now on part with sunfire cape. but I mean the MS utility is useful for everyone. but I don't consider it such a useful tool as the waveclear from sunfire. I pick up sunfire more now. for waveclear. but i usually pick up both it and dead mans and even randuins too sometimes. because of all the armor negation there is in this game. I need 1 MR item and a lot of health to be safe from mages however adcs. its impossible to get enough protection but we try to last as long as possible

here is an idea for riot. buff sunfire cape passive so its not as pathetic as it is right now. buff the magic damage and its range. idk range by like 100 and damage by 25. its still like 65 damage per second and that would be at level 18.

and also increase randuins crit reduction to 15%. or make the as reduction stack like twice or something.

for thornmail. well. buff its passive. thats about it. whats the point of buying a thornmail unless your malphite with 600+ armor that will prob wont have that much health.? thornmail + warmogs = 100 armor+ 850 health. dead mans plate + sunfire cape= 100 armor + 1000 health. for a little bit more gold. 200 or so. with way more utility

frozen heart is really only good on few champions. same thing with iceborn gauntlet. offensive tanks. that need mana and cdr.

GigglesO3 votes

{quoted}

and also increase randuins crit reduction to 15%. or make the as reduction stack like twice or something.

I misread this as crit reflection, crit reflection would be so much more amazing than reduction. I would build item 3143 item 3075 every game.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

Draven walks up, full build, and throws his Q (which crits) at Rammus item 3143 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075.

A Draven has been slain.

GigglesO1 votes

{quoted}

Draven walks up, full build, and throws his Q (which crits) at Rammus item 3143 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075.

A Draven has been slain.

thqt falls under the 600 armor category. Which is still unrealistic in game.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

you were talking about 15% crit reflection. i was making an extreme scenario where someone one shots themselves with it.

Muted Summoner1 votes

I only see item 3026 on that fed Rengar/etc just in case he dies. Ohrm Wrecker needs a bit more stats but I got a feeling is one of those items thats going to get removed. Its a shame it cant be allocated to a support item for tanks that love to dive. I really do love item 3512 but I rarely get a chance to use it. If Im ahead its nice but not needed, if im behind thats hard to pick but I could get it to help us keep lanes pushed so we can fight for objectives...but another item for team fights seems more valuable. I wish we could use the active a bit sooner or another build path so we could but it be weaker but better for the early game when I want to roam from one of the lanes for about 1 min.

Randuin is good for the crit but...Most Gangplank due to his global Ult and his tremendous wave clear are banned and it takes so long for most adcs to get crit and most of the time I need an item so I can get on that adcs face and smack'em good.

Spoofghoul1 votes

Movepseed is why

Lets get real here every adc and mage item has movespeed. Without any of your own you can't get to them which makes every other item worthless unless you get mobile enough to actually make use of them

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