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@Riot. Taric: the hardest rework

Sherogarth··42 votes·15,026 views

OK, maybe first about myself: Am I Korean Chellenger Taric main? Nope, im not into rankeds (was gold 5 in season 4). Im just a guy who enjoy playing tanky dudes (juggernauts, tanks, supports) and utility mages. Im a simple man who prefers simple kits without minigames. Im not even sure if I can call myself a true Taric main (although I own the only true skin for him). I just really likes his playstyle, personality and he is my go to support. Some time ago i even posted who he is imo and some rework idea for him.

So, to the point: as we all know Taric's rework is next big step on Riot's rework list. And thats great but there is one little thing that bothers me:

Right now we got almost none 100% info about this rework.

I uderstand that Riot wants this big "suprise mothafuka" moments but imo its not the best idea for reworks. We play this champions, we love them, we hate them, we fight with them, we lose with them and we win with them. I know that this is their game, but I think that in case of champion relaunch a communication between the mind (Riot) and the hearth (players) of this game is necessery. Losing a main due to rework is the worst thing that can happen to a player in this game, its like losing a good friend irl.

And here we are back to Taric again. Unlike Sion or Poppy - Taric's theme and personality is really strong. So strong that he become one of fan favourites. That why I call him "the hardest rework". There is so many things that Riot need to keep in his rework that im afraid it is almost impossible. Impossible... without communication.

So here are my questions about Taric's rework:

  • Is he as viable support/top/jungle as Tahm Kench?
  • Can you point a champion with similar skill floor to his reworked version?
  • What is the most core thing in current Taric for Riot?
  • If his reworked kit is not successful or is not liked by players will Riot be willing to revert him to his old kit with new visuals and retry balance it? (we dont want to be left with next cassio or ryze)

I really hope that someone at Riot will be willing to answer them. Taric May the Gems be with you, friends.

75 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir28 votes

I actually don't really think it's fair to say we're entirely holding out for a big grand reveal moment on everything as far as Taric is concerned. There is some stuff we'd like to keep under wraps as well polish it, such as which spells are changed and what they do and what direction his visuals should take. But as far as goals, direction, and various player concerns surrounding him go (including "please keep him on the simple side"), I feel like I've been pretty open, and there should be answers to most of those questions out there already.

KING OF MASKS11 votes

Aren't spells the backbone of a champion's gameplay though? Keeping them under wraps is the kind of obfuscation that a lot of people are getting really tired of, I think. Discussion of "goals, direction, player concerns" is all well and good, but at the end of the day that sort of thing is so vague that it's effectively meaningless to us. Okay, so you're going to keep Taric's kit "simple" -- well, what does that really mean, in a gameplay sense? No skillshots? No minigames?

When it comes to a relaunch, we want to know more specific details. I mean, at least with Malz you teased what his ult might involve.

Kingsgrave5 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING OF MASKS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JY9cEAPO,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-02-11T06:49:44.194+0000)

Aren't spells the backbone of a champion's gameplay though? Keeping them under wraps is the kind of obfuscation that a lot of people are getting really tired of, I think. Discussion of "goals, direction, player concerns" is all well and good, but at the end of the day that sort of thing is so vague that it's effectively meaningless to us. Okay, so you're going to keep Taric's kit "simple" -- well, what does that really mean, in a gameplay sense? No skillshots? No minigames?

When it comes to a relaunch, we want to know more specific details. I mean, at least with Malz you teased what his ult might involve.

I've seen Riot compare him to Braum before, so probably that simple.

They don't want to give specifics because things change.

LaoBushido4 votes

They don't teases spefics because a lot of the things don't actually make into pbe for testing hell in sure in these past two months alone that they dropped and changes an ability. Now let's say the ability was a really op mechanic and riot decided that it is too strong for its kit then they decide to remove to replace it with some weaker to balance the kit as a whole the community would go in a uproar about how the ability needed to stay etc.

Saeko244 votes

{quoted}

I actually don't really think it's fair to say we're entirely holding out for a big grand reveal moment on everything as far as Taric is concerned. There is some stuff we'd like to keep under wraps as well polish it, such as which spells are changed and what they do and what direction his visuals should take. But as far as goals, direction, and various player concerns surrounding him go (including "please keep him on the simple side"), I feel like I've been pretty open, and there should be answers to most of those questions out there already.

Dont worry. Your communication was fine and this guy has no idea what he is talking about.

LaoBushido1 votes

Yea most people I have noticed don't like to look into thing and just want riot to repeat themselves

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

How is ACTUALLY saying WHAT they're doing to him repeating "don't worry we'll try to keep him like you like him".

LaoBushido1 votes

hmm i am a bit lost on your argument. if you look below i post the answer to many of the questions op post, not 100% if i hit them all even the red reply sated the answers to his question have been posted which is why he did not answer them because if he did then HE WOULD BE REPEATING HIMSELF, thus making him have good communication as seako said

Troll for Trump2 votes

To be fair, reworks go on PBE for a month-ish for testing and feedback before hitting live. The problem is whether or not the feedback is being listened Morde

Fikule1 votes

What I'm hoping for:

  • Gems. Maybe as a resource similar to WoW's Warlock Soul Shards, so he can steadily spend them or burn them in more dire circumstances.
  • Immobile Juggernaut. If anyone actually fit this theme for a top laner it's Taric (Garen... is not so immobile). Let him be a beastie.
  • Someone else suggested it, but the engage punisher. "You're jumping on my ADC and trying to ignore me? Big mistake". He kind of has this with his stun dealing more up-close. Just, more this.
  • Armor! Wooooooo!
  • Big Hammery Hammer of hammer times.
IcyPepper1 votes

Garen... is not so immobile

Generally a single MS boost doesn't count as mobile :/

It certainly helps, but it doesn't make a champion classified as a mobile champion.

Fikule1 votes

Well Karma was passed over the Immobile Mage rework as she has a 1.5s speed boost apparently. I think 3.5 seconds of bonus movement speed makes you pretty mobile.

IcyPepper1 votes

shrugs

Then I got nothing.

elon wątroba2 votes

Karma was passed over, because she counts as utility mage and they wanted to focus on "combat" mages only.

Voluug131 votes

She barely has anything to support with. 3/4 of her kit is pure midlaner, and the only thing she has left is a medicre shield with a terrible MS buff.

elon wątroba1 votes

Whole her kit works greatly against all in supports on bot.

Sherogarth3 votes

Hi RiotRepertoir :D!

Firstly, thanks for your answer and your whole communication with the boards, its really great to have a Rioter like you.

Secondly, yes this rework is quite open but as i said there was no 100% info, it was more like "maybe", "quite likely" and some teases. All I wanted was to get some comparison with existing champs and bring your attention that every champion is much more than just some data. Its always hard to say goodbye to one of those virtual friends. I think Riot sometimes dont bother with feelings of playerbase just for the sake of balance and gameplay. Then we and you are left with champions that not only are not healthier for game but also are no longer champions that players loved. Thats why I bring this whole communication point. Im almost sure that Taric's rework gonna be great success but even then there are champions who really need more than "balance" to become something more for us all. I hope that Riot will continue all this communication on next reworks and will remember that we, players, are always here willing to help you (even if you dont want this xD).

Taric May the Gems guide you, friend.

RiotRiotRepertoir7 votes

All I wanted was to get some comparison with existing champs and bring your attention that every champion is much more than just some data. Its always hard to say goodbye to one of those virtual friends. I think Riot sometimes dont bother with feelings of playerbase just for the sake of balance and gameplay.

That's a great point about champions being more than data. One of the things that I think the rest of the champion update designers and I are constantly trying to get better at is balancing what data we have with respect to the existing character on Live. When it comes to full revamps like Taric, which the community pretty unanimously agrees needs the update, one of the biggest challenges (which I hope we've managed well in Taric's case) is trying to extract the essence of the existing champion that some players attach to and instill those things into the update.

LoL Ergo Urgot2 votes

How does that work with champions who aren't as popular Yorick Urgot and whose character types don't seem as popular? When I say character types and popularity I mean that Poppy was a little girl with a big hammer who wasn't afraid to throw down as compared to an unholy abomination of science and grotesqueness Urgot or a tragic, loner, brooding gravedigger Yorick . Obviously the Poppy character would be more desirable to the most people. Is there enough data for champions like Urgot and Yorick?

RiotReav38 votes

We gather a lot of data from our insights team when we do these big VGUs. We gather this before we even begin as well as over the course of development through playtests. Our goal is always to preserve the essence of a character, while building upon it and bringing them up to the modern standard of League Champions.

I personally feel that both Yorick and Urgot have a core essence that would be much more appealing if executed on correctly. I tend to like the more Gothic/Dark characters though. :)

La Bello3 votes

{quoted}

We gather a lot of data from our insights team when we do these big VGUs. We gather this before we even begin as well as over the course of development through playtests. Our goal is always to preserve the essence of a character, while building upon it and bringing them up to the modern standard of League Champions.

I personally feel that both Yorick and Urgot have a core essence that would be much more appealing if executed on correctly. I tend to like the more Gothic/Dark characters though. :)

yeah dont listen to him.

I hate it when people say "X champion isnt popular because theyre ugly". Pudge from dota2 and Devourer from HoN are two of the most popular champs from thier respective series. It has nothing to do with looks(its more about gameplay). besides its good to have actual variety from 6pack BigMcLargeHuge and big breasted femme fatales. please keep thier uglyness instact. Urgots bloated body and Yoricks humpback and limp.

BattleBalladeer1 votes

I remember playing as Devourer in Savage 2 back when that game's universe was used for a more original game design. Man that was fun. Firing corpses like a cannon. Infinite healing like a Vladimir . Good times.

Nefas1 votes

Could you tak about what you think that core essence of Yorick and Urgot is?

LoL Ergo Urgot1 votes

Thank-you for your reassurance.

KFC Overlord3 votes

{quoted}

We gather a lot of data from our insights team when we do these big VGUs. We gather this before we even begin as well as over the course of development through playtests. Our goal is always to preserve the essence of a character, while building upon it and bringing them up to the modern standard of League Champions.

I personally feel that both Yorick and Urgot have a core essence that would be much more appealing if executed on correctly. I tend to like the more Gothic/Dark characters though. :)

Can I still spam my taunt and joke to make my team go insane?

sp4411 votes

Good, keep Urgot as a unholy fusion of nature and science, I love him just the way he is, I don't need for him to turn into Generic Evil Cyborg #216.

GigglesO1 votes

{quoted}

When it comes to full revamps like Taric, which the community pretty unanimously agrees needs the update....

The real issue is that any champion that has less than a 5% playrate, the community will most likely agree "needs an update".

So what happens if you rework a champion, and they go back to a less than 5% playrate? Well, you basically changed the champion in such a way that he still is only sometimes a good pick, and he now has a new group of fanboys.

I still can't play Mordekaiser or Sion or Karma as well as I could before their rework.... I also think it is pretty sufficient to say, I've given them their fair chances.

Bodkins Odds2 votes

As long as I can go top buy an Iceborn and start deleting people I'll be happy.

Voluug131 votes

The tears of Riven sustain me as a Topric player.

The Rewritten20 votes

{quoted}

Loosing a main due to rework is the worst thing that can happen to a player in this game, its like loosing a good friend irl.

Truth Karma

Clementhias2 votes

I would very much like a Riot employee to answer a few of these.

I think OP phrased them in a way that allows a vague but useful answer.

Ruby for vigor.

D3m37r19 votes

Gangplank Fiora Mordekaiser i feel u.

HighH19 votes

Cassiopeia you don't know the half of it

doombotMECHA2 votes

whos that?

My Name Dave4 votes

i mained those exact champions season 4 and then.. and then... item 3070 item 3070

shyv2 votes

remember when Kassadin was good?

Saeko244 votes

[{quoted}](name=trying too hard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JY9cEAPO,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2016-02-11T01:24:22.916+0000)

remember when Kassadin was good?

He still is.

shyv3 votes

you must not remember season 3 kass. he was banned literally every single game.

doombotMECHA1 votes

season 3 kass was season 5 zed

shyv2 votes

much, much stronger than zed

Khâmul1 votes

[{quoted}](name=trying too hard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JY9cEAPO,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2016-02-11T01:24:22.916+0000)

remember when Kassadin was good?

Kassadin is good....in late game....which never happens..

Bârd5 votes

Ryze Zilean Soraka I know the feels

TaoistMaster2 votes

Sion I used to go mid, shield blast a wave. then roam and kill people with a DFG and other AP items. Then come back mid really fast with mobis and blast another wave.

Also, top was fun. weak to start, but some of the best DPS in the game with old AD sion after some items.

SpinnerMask5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Rewritten,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JY9cEAPO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-02-10T21:54:15.550+0000)

Truth Karma

All these people are quoting other reworked champs. But they don't really understand the Karma pain. Karma This is not Karma anymore. Did you ever wonder who she used to be? http://www.relatably.com/q/img/karma-quotes-league/8130a36619354ad4c6e618d8d350e007.jpg

The Rewritten1 votes

I have the Traditional Karma skin on several of my accounts.

Tis a sad memory.

Celeste Benal2 votes

Skarner The Crystal Scar is weeping dead.

LaoBushido6 votes

The thing is all your questions have been answered you just have to find them,

{quoted}

As a ground floor game designer that doesn't really make the big decisions like these, I really can't do much more than make guesses on this subject, and I don't really think that's fair to you guys. Sorry if that sounds like dodging. I'd enlighten you with what I had if I had it.

From the perspective of someone works on champions and gameplay, I really do think that the number of cases where full reverts would be a step forward for the game are very few and far between (especially when considering the large amount of content regularly being added/modified in the game). I can't think of many cases where I'd say a compromise isn't the better solution, but that is a matter of perspective (and bias, I'm sure).

{quoted}

I think he'll be playable there. I don't know that he'll be absolutely amazing, but it wouldn't surprise me too much if he had some good matchups.

{quoted}

Taric will still heal, and he will still be a high Armor, Armor-loving champion. Few, if any, of his skills will be the same as they are on Live.

{quoted}

Lots of changes, especially visually. I'm really trying to hit a "battle healer" type of feel on him, so he's probably a weird hybrid of a Tank, Support, and Juggernaut at the end of the day, though we never really committed to a particular class with him.

FrankerX2 votes

it seems like im not the only one who is really hyped for tarics rework. i never thought so many ppl are hyped.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

@Riot. Taric: the hardest rework

i guess you could say his rework was a 10 on the moh's scale.

Sherogarth1 votes

i guess i could say that he is "the hardest" rework ( ͡º ͜ʖ ͡º).

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