Can we give Lee's ulti a 0.25 sec longer cast time ?

Yi Bencheikh·Nov 30, 2016·89 votes·3,465 views

so he can't ulti you to the tower 0.10 second before his flash you did the same thing to grag do it to lee

90 Comments

Kirius DarkNov 30, 201625 votes

Should just give his ult an energy cost. Free to cast low CD ult on a manaless champ is already fucking stupid.

The only other champ who can recovery energy is Shen, but he's gated with high cooldowns.

Meanwhile Lee can recover lots of energy very fast, ultra low CDs with a free ult why?

AirKingNeoNov 30, 20169 votes

He has no cost? Yesh, that's stupid.

Here's an idea: Add energy cost, raise the cooldown, and no longer roots enemies at the start of the animation.

Kirius DarkNov 30, 20165 votes

CD would be ok if the root was removed and energy cost was tacked on so he can't just spam all his abilities. Needing a few more autos for energy in between to get everything off gives a bit more time to play against it

AstôlfoNov 30, 20167 votes

Honest question though. His ability is still a point-and-click targeted. The root is literally just so they don't move out of the way during the animation which would look weird as fuck because they'd still get kicked. So, wouldn't removing the root be sort of worse for visual clarification?

But yes the cooldown is ridiculously fucking low.

But giving it an energy cost is also contradictory to literally every other energy champion.

Tik115Dec 1, 20163 votes

His ability is still a point-and-click targeted. The root is literally just so they don't move out of the way during the animation which would look weird as fuck because they'd still get kicked. So, wouldn't removing the root be sort of worse for visual clarification?

But it's Ok that you can flash Poppy E? or Trist ult? or Vayne E? which are all point and click displacement?

I don't think you realize, his point and click displacement root is an EXCEPTION

AstôlfoDec 1, 20161 votes

But.... those are far faster than Lee Sin's kick animation.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but since all of those are targeted, wouldn't you still get knocked back even if you do Flash?

Tik115Dec 1, 20165 votes

only Poppys E is faster since the other 2 have travel time

and to correct you, you do but the direction you get knocked back is based on your location when your hit

So if you flash to Poppys left the second she E's you will be shoved away from her to her left while she continues in her normal direction

Lee sin however you can't flash to change the direction, as I said he is literally the only exception to that rule

AirKingNeoDec 1, 20165 votes

His root allows you to not be able to move or flash for counterplay.

AstôlfoDec 1, 20161 votes

Even if you could and did move or Flash, you'd still be kicked. Not sure what you mean. It'd only prevent him from probably being in range to follow up afterwards.

adri13Dec 1, 20165 votes

I believe what they're trying to get at is that if a lee were to flash insec or ward hop etc. you would be able to flash through him or something similar in order to not be kicked into his team, but instead in the opposite direction, like towards your team.

AstôlfoDec 1, 20163 votes

Ah okay, yeah, that should be made possible.

DIAMONDV OR BUSTNov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He has no cost? Yesh, that's stupid.

Here's an idea: Add energy cost, raise the cooldown, and no longer roots enemies at the start of the animation.

The real problem isn't the root at the start, it's the stun at the end.

AirKingNeoDec 1, 20161 votes

At least I can flash away if the root is removed.

AstôlfoDec 1, 20162 votes

And how does that matter when you'd still be kicked? The only thing it'd do is increase the distance between you and him after the kick. And it'd look far weirder visually.

LSmaster16Nov 30, 201633 votes

All energy using champion's ults don't cost energy. Also, all energy using champions can recover energy. (Zed mimicked abilities, Lee passive, Shen e passive, akali second q, and kennen passive proc and e.)

BlåbæretDec 1, 20164 votes

{quoted}

All energy using champion's ults don't cost energy. Also, all energy using champions can recover energy. (Zed mimicked abilities, Lee passive, Shen e passive, akali second q, and kennen passive proc and e.)

Fallacy. Because x is like that it must also mean y should be the same, amirite? Lee is obviously overtuned as proven at Worlds. We're simply discussing well-needed nerfs.

BrohoofDec 1, 201610 votes

As much as it'd be a potential nerf, those are the 'rules' of energy champs.

Tannhäuser GateDec 1, 20164 votes

Shen rework broke the rules when rito gave him a pool of 400 instead of the standard 200

SpoofghoulDec 1, 20163 votes

alongside higher energy costs

without giving him better tools to restore some energy

to give him more oomph, but at the same time make it more punishing to misuse abilties

SaiannaDec 1, 20164 votes

What about Shen with his 400 energy?

All energy champs were supposed to have only 200.

So as you can see, Riot bends those 'rules' as they please, whenever they feel like it.

IcyPepperDec 1, 20163 votes

Ekko, a mana champion, was released without a mana cost on his ultimate.

Rules are made to be broken.

Auz the RipperDec 1, 20168 votes

There were a few mana champions with free ults before ekko was released, Kayle off the top of my head

Hyrum GraffDec 1, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Level 18 Feeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JVtYws11,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-30T22:27:33.466+0000)

The only other champ who can recovery energy is Shen

http://media.riffsy.com/images/8a4a99d3bd67ba8d9a025c36edf4a624/tenor.gif

Lee gets it from autos after abilities.
Kennen gets it from running through people with his E.
Shen gets it from landing his taunt.
Akali gets it from proccing her mark.
Zed gets it from hitting multiple spells on the same champion.

Literally every single energy champ has a recovery mechanic.

MuddafragotNov 30, 201616 votes

You want rito to nerf LeeSin ? HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHUAIUGVKFUOYBORKSCHMER!!!

ArroweNov 30, 20167 votes

Grag's ult was a projectile -___-

AcidTheWarlockNov 30, 201610 votes

Lee's ult is a projectile.

He shoots.....

YOOOOOUUUUU

Sagan ForeverDec 1, 20162 votes

Grags nerf was entirely to point blank barrels. Instead of an insta barrel back, it became a .25 second wait then barrel back.

Ulquiorra995Dec 1, 20164 votes

Either the root from the ability or Lee being able to flash during it needs to go. How's it fair that he can R-flash but you can't blow a 300s summoner to counter a 60s baseCD ability?

Oh, and remove the stupid % damage from it. It serves no purpose whatsoever except rewarding bad plays.

AtanchanDec 1, 20163 votes

It seems pretty shortsided to say that kicking a bulky champion into their own team is always a bad play, especially since Lee's ult has a pretty low cooldown. Sure, you're not getting an Insec-style pick from it, but you could be getting a diver or juggernaut off one of your squishy carries, and with proper aim turn their bulk onto their team and set up your own engage by stunning and nuking their squishies. Even if you're not in the position to turn on them, though, that damage can still lead to them being unable to take any objectives currently available to them.

Not to mention, it's a lot of AoE damage if you happen to hit someone who's stacking health, as infrequent as that may be. If anything, that damage rewards prioritizing your team's safety while properly positioning your kick, as well as going for risky plays by kicking the enemy tank into their team instead of the safer kicking the enemy carry into your's.

Ulquiorra995Dec 1, 20164 votes

It seems that I poorly worded my thoughts. I don't think that kicking a bulky champion is a bad play (if you can call simply pressing R on a frontliner a "play" at all). Lee had to play around enemies in order to get a good angle to kick the high-priority target back. Now, if he can't get the said angle he can just kick the tank/bruiser and nuke the backline anyway. This mostly rewards bad Lee players who can't get around to the backline.

Plus, damage based on a tank's HP is beyond stupid. It punishes enemy team for playing properly (frontliners building defenses, squishies properly positioning behind them) - and that's something Rito usually tries to avoid and has nerfed/reworked their fair share of abilities because of that. Eh, I guess we can just add it to the "Deemed toxic but it's on Lee so he's allowed to keep it" list.

AtanchanDec 1, 20162 votes

The thing about "properly positioning behind them" is that that's ... kinda meaningless. Exactly what that refers to depends on both team's comps, as a champion's effective range and what they have to deal with both dramatically effects exactly how they position. For example, if you're fighting versus Vayne or Poppy, you want to stand away from walls to prevent their stun, and how Lee affects that isn't exactly unique - Nautilus, Lux, and Ezreal will punish you for standing in a line, too. Of course, Nautilus and Lee are much less frightening than Lux and Ezreal if you're playing Ziggs or Xerath, while someone like Lucian would have to worry about them just as much.

Hell, a team might not even have a frontliner that picks up that much health. It's not like it's particularly uncommon for a champion to have checks that punish particular builds - any sort of non-true percentage health damage does that, since building health over resistances makes it far more effective. And we all know how common percentage health damage is in this game.

Spaceman5pffDec 1, 20162 votes

Riot said in the patch notes that the % dmg was tacked on to make him more effective in the hands of new players.

Issue is, i means Pros can be equally effective by taking less risks.

Lose - lose really in my book.

EedatNov 30, 20163 votes

I think Ult buffering in general needs to go. Cassiopeia included

Numb3rsNov 30, 20163 votes

if you remove the option it will just force players to use their ward jumps instead. you can't change lee sins number one combo or else hes useless. not to mention there are tons of champions that can use flash combos with their abilties

Spaceman5pffDec 1, 20163 votes

Oh wow Lee Sin useless?

Wouldn't that be the day.

hunterspecNov 30, 20162 votes

so once he goes under tower he runs out of energy? no. stop trying to ruin lee. god I'm so tired of fucking cry babies like you.

Toa InnodenceDec 1, 20162 votes

while I agree that a cost shouldn't be included, I still think his ult should either:

A) suffer in the damage scaling department as it passes through more enemies both from a balance and a theming standpoint as he could kill half of a team for positioning correctly against everything including his other abilities except his ult.

B) have the root removed with the compensation that its cast time is reduced or removed as a way of managing his control to help him fall off more instead of shifting to a stun-bot that can still kill most enemy champs or teams.

C) his cooldown should be increased at later levels. comparatively, an ult of identical cooldown, solar flare (leona), has a 100-250 base + 80% ap ratio magic damage plus some combat stats that boost another 15% ap or so magic damage costing 100 mana, stunning enemies caught in the center for 1.5 seconds or slowing for 80% outside of it, and has a delay of .625 seconds including an indicator and a short animation as a telegraph. lee's is a 200-600 base + 200% bonus ad ratio that then applies 15-21% of the projectile's max health (somewhere between 300 and 850 and above most of the time ranging to 1000 if there's a sion lategame), rooting the enemy for some time around .25 seconds before knocking them 1200 units for one second in a direction, with the ability to stun anyone in the line for a second, which if aimed at a wall, edge of map or turret can keep the enemy in place as a stun for dps and burst. furthermore, leona typically goes support and gets maybe 30 ap if she builds for it mostly keeping tanky putting her ult damage at 265 magic damage with no penetration. lee sin typically builds up to 360 or so ad lategame, building ad along the way to get around 1320 damage. of course they're different styles one an actual support cc-bot and the other an outmanuvering jungle champ, but while his ult value varies across uses, even general skillshot ability will make it more valuable as well as with his other abilities, which is then multiplied by its frequency of a 90-60 (no cdr) cd ult.

I don't disagree that the damage is what makes him a threat and that removing it would cripple his use, but he's got a lot more than just his ult going for him including an execute, max base movement speed, a slow, two gap closers and ad scalings all over the place. he can afford to increase his cooldown to a 90-70 at a minimum and a 100-80 at harshest. I don't mind that you enjoy lee sin as he does look fun if you can pull it off and his values are dependent on skill and choice. but im sorta tired of lee killing 2-3 carries with/and their tank for positioning reasonably every 48 or so seconds.

AstôlfoDec 1, 20161 votes

It needs a longer cooldown probably, but not a ridiculously long one, because his ult combo is literally the only thing he can offer in lategame, and he won't always hit everyone with it, instead of just nuking the ADC.

Toa InnodenceDec 1, 20161 votes

yeah, im thinking that the 90-70 would be more in line while still allowing warrior and any cdr glyphs as well as any other cdr items would allow it to be on cd for a few more seconds. I understand he's early game intensive and wouldn't want to cripple him in that area too much. my experience is usually on the receiving end as a support or jungler, so I wouldn't be able to pinpoint how to make the cd feel at its best. he is an early game champion right?

AstôlfoDec 1, 20162 votes

Yep. It could even be just 80 or so in lategame (-5/rank) if 70 is too low, but I think 90-70 should be fine generally.

OG xDaRRiuSDec 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

so he can't ulti you to the tower 0.10 second before his flash you did the same thing to grag do it to lee

So you want to say to delete the kickflash R+Flash ? LOL

Lee is not the problem.The Red and krugs xp are the problem. And why no nerf xin ? He can clean faster with full hp and xin gankpower is so damn op..

CaythelesDec 1, 20162 votes

I hate that they did that to grag, now its so slow, anyone can predict it. It;s a bitch to woodyfruity now.

Athenes LuluDec 1, 20162 votes

And make his ult interrupt-able by silences? Yes please! [slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

GigglesODec 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

so he can't ulti you to the tower 0.10 second before his flash you did the same thing to grag do it to lee

ummmmm nooooo because

"Dragon's Rage's target is rooted for its cast time (~0.25 seconds)"

DengedenDec 1, 20161 votes

Ah yes, I too remember the Gragas ult-flash. Just like I remember that Gragas ult can only be used in melee range. And Gragas high pickrate but average winrate. Oh wait no, they're completely different champions.

Spaceman5pffDec 1, 20161 votes

Yeah one got nerfed bc he had been meta for a while and isn't played anymore, and the other is so rabidly obsessed over that riot won't properly balance them.

DengedenDec 1, 20161 votes

One dominates p/b phase. The other falls out of the meta on his own. Yes. "Not balanced". Lol.

Spaceman5pffDec 1, 20161 votes

What is p/b phase?

Gragas didn't fall out of meta on his own, his mobility and ult were nerfed to push him out of the meta. Not saying he didn't need nerfs, but the intent matters.

Lee Sin DOESN'T leave the meta. he is too versatile, and with the %HP Mechanic on his ult he can also be quite safe by not having to dive to get a good ult.

DengedenDec 2, 20161 votes

Pick ban phase. Which Gragas dominated. Which he would have continued to do had he not gotten nerfed. All the while having a good winrate. Unlike Lee.

Lee on the other hand drops out by himself. The chances of him kicking a tank into a competent carry are absurdly low. (Unless Sneaky is running straight at him to follow up). Sure, he has a dedicated playerbase because he committed the cardinal sin of having a fun kit and a good early game. This does change how average his performance is. You can pick any champion with a non-Aatrox kit in soloQ. That does not make them "meta".

Spaceman5pffDec 2, 20161 votes

Wow amazing how you say it is only BC he is fun.

Completely disregard his priority status in high elo / pro play right now. Has absolutely no bearing on anything, right?