Why even have Fiora. Delete Fiora or nerf Riven. There's literally no point in having both. Rivens 1v1 potential is so much better than fioras it's really, really sickening how this champ has stayed literally the same (save incredibly minor and otherwise meaningless cd and passive damage nerfs) HER DAMAGE DOESN'T EVEN MATTER. HER KIT IS UNBRIDLED. End of story.
mvargus5 votesdidn't we have this conversation this morning? and yesterday? and last week? and 2 weeks ago? and... and... and....
Sorry, but I'm tired of reading "nerf X" because someone is struggling to defeat the champ and doesn't understand the champ. Worse, you don't understand the clear difference between Fiora and Riven. They play different and have different roles in fights. They are similar, but Riven is far more of an engage type than Fiora who will try to snipe the enemy carries. Both do tend to build glass cannon, but Riven will try to survive through her shield while Fiora relies on her ult making her untargetable to survive heated fights.
The calls to nerf Riven are a completely broken record now. And its always someone who is upset about Riven's mobility, but doesn't understand just how easy it is to shut Riven down. Riven probably more than any other top laner must feed/snowball or she'll get left behind. I jokingly state in games where my team faces Riven. "Everyone remember the first rule of Riven club."
I've posted a few comments about how to beat Riven in other threads. She's not hard to beat if you learn how. Heck, Garen hard counters her and he doesn't do that to many champs. Just learn how to fight her and keep her from snowballing and you'll never have a problem with her in the future.
HamburgerJunior1 votesdidn't we have this conversation this morning? and yesterday? and last week? and 2 weeks ago? and... and... and....
Sorry, but I'm tired of reading "nerf X" because someone is struggling to defeat the champ and doesn't understand the champ. Worse, you don't understand the clear difference between Fiora and Riven. They play different and have different roles in fights. They are similar, but Riven is far more of an engage type than Fiora who will try to snipe the enemy carries. Both do tend to build glass cannon, but Riven will try to survive through her shield while Fiora relies on her ult making her untargetable to survive heated fights.
The calls to nerf Riven are a completely broken record now. And its always someone who is upset about Riven's mobility, but doesn't understand just how easy it is to shut Riven down. Riven probably more than any other top laner must feed/snowball or she'll get left behind. I jokingly state in games where my team faces Riven. "Everyone remember the first rule of Riven club."
I've posted a few comments about how to beat Riven in other threads. She's not hard to beat if you learn how. Heck, Garen hard counters her and he doesn't do that to many champs. Just learn how to fight her and keep her from snowballing and you'll never have a problem with her in the future.
I disagree with every single word in this post. I understand perfectly what Riven does. It's bullshit and you'd probably stop hearing "nerf riven plz too op" if they ever did anything about it. No matter what you say or how you say it. Riven has way too many escape and survival options and it's bs. What other champion in the game has a 3 stage gap closer that's up every 4 seconds? What other champ has a 400-600 health shield every 5 seconds? Answer? None. Not a single one. And shutting down riven is a joke. Riven can be 0-5 at 20 minutes and the moment she gets a single kill she's going to spiral out of control. She doesn't even have to build damage because of how much of it comes out of her sheer kit. But lets just say you're right and forget every point i just made. Lets talk about counterplay options. Riven goes in on you as let's say....Jax. Your minion wave isn't coming and your minute ward is down. You're going to E and and she's just going to ult, q in on you right? You flash to avoid dying. But you limp away with about 200-300 hp and then she just R's you because infinite escape options aren't enough. She's got a shockwave to clean you up JUST IN CASE YOU ALMOST GET AWAY. Same old story? Yes. Does the same problem persist? Also yes.
Raise Dongrs3 votesYou've got to ask yourself; is your viewpoint on balance more valid than someone who does it proffessionally and knows what is problematic and what isn't?
HamburgerJunior1 votes[{quoted}](name=Raise Dongrs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JOEoUU2T,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-06T17:15:23.730+0000)
You've got to ask yourself; is your viewpoint on balance more valid than someone who does it proffessionally and knows what is problematic and what isn't?
It's this point of view that keeps league the way it is. Tailor made to pros. No, you're right. I've never been in LCS hence my opinion is invalidated. My bad, forgot you're not allowed to voice an issue you feel is a problem because i'm just a normal player. Won't happen again. Better get to spamming this in every other topic.
Raise Dongrs2 votesI'm just saying, you act like Riven is some unbeatable monster. Maybe you have to assess Riven's theme, play Riven and see where she's at instead of getting stomped by some Rivens and demanding she get nerfed
Kazaashi2 votesWhat other champ has a 400-600 health shield every 5 seconds?
Why did you feed her enough to get 200-400 bonus AD in lane?
Riven goes in on you as let's say....Jax. Your minion wave isn't coming and your minute ward is down. You're going to E and and she's just going to ult, q in on you right?
What happen to Jax's abilities. Since Riven gets most of her dmg from AA, Counter Strike should be able to clean her up, plus the extra armor from his Ult, dmg from Leap Strike, and Empower.
Of course, if she is fed then she will snowball hard.
Ser Garland2 votesBeating Riven in lane is one thing. But her late game power seems utterly inevitable. What does a fed Garen contribute to fights that a riven, even an 0/6 Riven who AFK farmed for ten minutes can't? The fact that ALL you need to do is build that magical 40 % Cooldown reduction on Riven, and she can engage and disengage like nothing else and is more uncatchable then a singed or a kassadin, with absolutely no mana issues as a drawback.
Fiora's one thing. She does a lot of damage and can duel and assassinate like the best of them, but as the OP said, if she gets behind and afk farms, the best she can provide for her team is raw damage, while Riven has multiple options and still has a stun and a knock up making her relevant in team fights. not to mention her ult goes off cool down ever 30-40 seconds late game and pulls comebacks out of her ass that way.
Finally, I want to talk about the counter excuse. Yes, Garen counters Riven. Yes, Teemo counters Nasus. Does that make Nasus anymore fun to play against? Sure, if you like playing Teemo. What if you don't like playing Teemo? or Darius? Or X or Y? What if you main, say, Sion top, who happens to get naturally shit on by both Riven and Nasus. What do you do? What if you're at an Elo where the enemy riven or Nasus is equally as skilled as you are and you simply fall victim to them due to "hard counters"? What if you just want to play any champ you want to play and still have the glimmer of hope that you can beat your lane opponent, be it Rumble or Yorick or Cho'gath or what have you. I'm sick of the X beats Y argument, league should not be a rock paper scissors match.
HamburgerJunior1 votes[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JOEoUU2T,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-03-06T17:18:55.408+0000)
Beating Riven in lane is one thing. But her late game power seems utterly inevitable. What does a fed Garen contribute to fights that a riven, even an 0/6 Riven who AFK farmed for ten minutes can't? The fact that ALL you need to do is build that magical 40 % Cooldown reduction on Riven, and she can engage and disengage like nothing else and is more uncatchable then a singed or a kassadin, with absolutely no mana issues as a drawback.
Fiora's one thing. She does a lot of damage and can duel and assassinate like the best of them, but as the OP said, if she gets behind and afk farms, the best she can provide for her team is raw damage, while Riven has multiple options and still has a stun and a knock up making her relevant in team fights. not to mention her ult goes off cool down ever 30-40 seconds late game and pulls comebacks out of her ass that way.
Finally, I want to talk about the counter excuse. Yes, Garen counters Riven. Yes, Teemo counters Nasus. Does that make Nasus anymore fun to play against? Sure, if you like playing Teemo. What if you don't like playing Teemo? or Darius? Or X or Y? What if you main, say, Sion top, who happens to get naturally shit on by both Riven and Nasus. What do you do? What if you're at an Elo where the enemy riven or Nasus is equally as skilled as you are and you simply fall victim to them due to "hard counters"? What if you just want to play any champ you want to play and still have the glimmer of hope that you can beat your lane opponent, be it Rumble or Yorick or Cho'gath or what have you. I'm sick of the X beats Y argument, league should not be a rock paper scissors match.
I agree, it shouldn't be. But at present it's not a rock paper scissors match. No matter who you are top lane against riven. Even if you don't lose lane. She will have a stronger presence than you in teamfights. No matter what you do. She can be 0-29385490857123489756934756923487568923745. It doesn't matter. Someone with an aoe knockup aoe stun aoe wave nuke and 100% cdr and a passive that shells out stupid damage is ridiculous.
Lord Dusteon3 votesI agree, it shouldn't be. But at present it's not a rock paper scissors match. No matter who you are top lane against riven. Even if you don't lose lane. She will have a stronger presence than you in teamfights. No matter what you do. She can be 0-29385490857123489756934756923487568923745. It doesn't matter. Someone with an aoe knockup aoe stun aoe wave nuke and 100% cdr and a passive that shells out stupid damage is ridiculous.
Sion confirmed worse than Riven in ridiculousness, has AoE knockup AND stun, both longer duration, AoE %max hp nuke AND a long ranged poke + slow that can also shred armor AND does 10% enemy maxhp while having 100% lifesteal while getting massive attack speed for free.
Guess what, any champion sounds broken if you don't list any of their weakness and just mindlessly point out their strengths. You want dashes? Renekton's dashes have combined 900 range and both can go over walls. He has ONE ability with dashes. Riven has combined 1105 range, with one capable of wall jumping. This is over 2 abilities. If you notice though, Riven has to use 3 charges of her main damage source for most of her mobility, meaning if she tries to gapclose she's losing a lot of damage.
Otherwise, no, Riven will NOT have a higher presence in teamfights. She's an incredibly squishy champion who people assume is tanky because she has a big shield. In addition, she has no long duration hard CC and is melee; if she gets in the middle of any teamfight she is either A) cleaning up a fight you already lost, or B) about to die because you cc'd her.
HamburgerJunior1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JOEoUU2T,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-06T18:51:45.183+0000)
Sion confirmed worse than Riven in ridiculousness, has AoE knockup AND stun, both longer duration, AoE %max hp nuke AND a long ranged poke + slow that can also shred armor AND does 10% enemy maxhp while having 100% lifesteal while getting massive attack speed for free.
Guess what, any champion sounds broken if you don't list any of their weakness and just mindlessly point out their strengths. You want dashes? Renekton's dashes have combined 900 range and both can go over walls. He has ONE ability with dashes. Riven has combined 1105 range, with one capable of wall jumping. This is over 2 abilities. If you notice though, Riven has to use 3 charges of her main damage source for most of her mobility, meaning if she tries to gapclose she's losing a lot of damage.
Otherwise, no, Riven will NOT have a higher presence in teamfights. She's an incredibly squishy champion who people assume is tanky because she has a big shield. In addition, she has no long duration hard CC and is melee; if she gets in the middle of any teamfight she is either A) cleaning up a fight you already lost, or B) about to die because you cc'd her.
What a horrid example. You're leaving out one terribly obvious difference. You know how to deal with sion? Move. Bam, you just completely averted everything sion could ever do to you. His stun is so slow it's literally a joke and if you don't dodge the minion he throws at you there's a serious problem. With the player's reflexes as they appear to be that of a snail. Riven just keeps coming and doesn't stop. Sure, she loses damage when she uses her q to gap close but she's not REALLY punished for it as it doesn't deplete mana, or shit even energy. Her q will be back up less than 7 seconds after she finishes the combo. And if she got to you? You just got stunned and railed for all sorts of damage regardless because of her ult and passive alone. She doesn't NEED the damage from q. She's got plenty of damage from other abillities.
Lord Dusteon2 votesWhat a horrid example. You're leaving out one terribly obvious difference. You know how to deal with sion? Move. Bam, you just completely averted everything sion could ever do to you. His stun is so slow it's literally a joke and if you don't dodge the minion he throws at you there's a serious problem. With the player's reflexes as they appear to be that of a snail. Riven just keeps coming and doesn't stop. Sure, she loses damage when she uses her q to gap close but she's not REALLY punished for it as it doesn't deplete mana, or shit even energy. Her q will be back up less than 7 seconds after she finishes the combo. And if she got to you? You just got stunned and railed for all sorts of damage regardless because of her ult and passive alone. She doesn't NEED the damage from q. She's got plenty of damage from other abillities.
Great job on missing the ENTIRE POINT I was making there. "Guess what, any champion sounds broken if you don't list any of their weaknesses and just mindlessly point out their strengths." It's almost like when you include weaknesses of the champion their strengths actually make sense!
Riven is punished incredibly if she uses Q to gapclose; she just wasted multiple charges of her main damaging move AND forced herself into melee range. If you have the patience to wait 1.5 seconds for her shield to wear off you WILL win any trades you make (unless you decided to build literal full glass cannon when behind. Then you will lose).
Also, Riven has 2 non ultimate damaging moves, with almost all her damage being in Q. Unless she's already EXTREMELY fed she needs Q to do anything.
HamburgerJunior1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JOEoUU2T,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-06T19:14:38.230+0000)
Great job on missing the ENTIRE POINT I was making there. "Guess what, any champion sounds broken if you don't list any of their weaknesses and just mindlessly point out their strengths." It's almost like when you include weaknesses of the champion their strengths actually make sense!
Riven is punished incredibly if she uses Q to gapclose; she just wasted multiple charges of her main damaging move AND forced herself into melee range. If you have the patience to wait 1.5 seconds for her shield to wear off you WILL win any trades you make (unless you decided to build literal full glass cannon when behind. Then you will lose).
Also, Riven has 2 non ultimate damaging moves, with almost all her damage being in Q. Unless she's already EXTREMELY fed she needs Q to do anything.
I didn't miss your point in the slightest. It's just completely irrelevant and gratz, you proved a point no one was trying a argue.
Also glancing at your profile you literally just run around picking fights with people about anything they say that isn't exactly your opinion and i'll bicker with you no long about a point i know i'm right about. Also, "Guess what" When you sit here babbling about all of rivens weaknesses (which are few to non-existant) You can manage to make her sound pretty bad. Good thing we all know better. Get lost.
mvargus2 votesWhat a horrid example. You're leaving out one terribly obvious difference. You know how to deal with sion? Move. Bam, you just completely averted everything sion could ever do to you. His stun is so slow it's literally a joke and if you don't dodge the minion he throws at you there's a serious problem. With the player's reflexes as they appear to be that of a snail. Riven just keeps coming and doesn't stop. Sure, she loses damage when she uses her q to gap close but she's not REALLY punished for it as it doesn't deplete mana, or shit even energy. Her q will be back up less than 7 seconds after she finishes the combo. And if she got to you? You just got stunned and railed for all sorts of damage regardless because of her ult and passive alone. She doesn't NEED the damage from q. She's got plenty of damage from other abillities.
Are you 1v1 fighting Riven late game? Where is the rest of your team? There is no way Riven shouldn't be focused down the instant she completes a charge.
And how is it the tank didn't get between your ADC and Riven? Did you have no map and champion awareness? Did no one keep track of the other teams main damage dealers?
Good lord, if you are that disorganized as a team, I could take you with Sejuani even if I built her as full tank.
Riven's Q is in a straight line and except for the last one which can jump walls, she doesn't move through other champions or even minions if she runs directly into them. You can keep her at bay with good positioning. (which any gold+ rank player already understands) If she can't line you up without moving through a champ she doesn't want to fight (your team's tank is always a good idea to have nearby) then she can't get to the squishes to use her abilities. And her Ult is an execute that does damage partly based on missing health. It won't do much to a tank and if she didn't get to the ADC, the ADC won't even feel it while focusing Riven into obilivion.
Even Riven's stun is rather pathetic. It lasts 0.75 seconds. It will stop a combo, but not much more. It's effective against squishy targets because it does give Riven time to start her combo and prevent her target from using any CC, but that's why you keep supports like Blitzcrank, Leona, Thresh, Janna or Braum around who can pull Riven away from your ADC and stun her while you reset the team fight and focus her.
Riven is a danger only to lower elos who have no teamfight presence and who forget some simple basics such as using minions as a barrier to charging attacks. Sorry, but she's not unbeatable. She's just annoying and can snowball against unskilled players who refuse to see her weaknesses and how to defeat them.
mvargus2 votes[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JOEoUU2T,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-03-06T17:18:55.408+0000)
Beating Riven in lane is one thing. But her late game power seems utterly inevitable. What does a fed Garen contribute to fights that a riven, even an 0/6 Riven who AFK farmed for ten minutes can't? The fact that ALL you need to do is build that magical 40 % Cooldown reduction on Riven, and she can engage and disengage like nothing else and is more uncatchable then a singed or a kassadin, with absolutely no mana issues as a drawback.
First a fed Garen is probably built as a full tank. Properly played he's a shield for the ADC and your other damage dealer. Even after Riven got her magical cooldown reduction she still has to be able to reach the squishy targets to eliminate them and her dashes don't pass through minions or other champions. Just make sure your tank is between her and your squishes and the glass cannon that is an unfed Riven can't get cheap kills. Then make sure to focus her and take her down before she can do much.
That's why you have the team comp idea. You should always have at least one tank who is supposed to engage/delay burst damage attackers like a Riven or a Kat while the team focuses them down. When you do that you will win more fights then you lose. Yes it does take a little coordination as if you don't focus the right person you can end up losing a team fight quickly once the tank is killed, but that's why LoL is a team game. Your team needs to work together
As for your complaint that LoL is a bit of rock,paper,scissors. Sorry, but any strategy game where you have multiple classes of pieces always has that element. Riven is a burst damage melee assassin. She's almost always built glass cannon but can erase squishy targets thanks to her abilities. That means that the best counter for her is a tank character or one with high levels of CC and low cooldowns. Honestly, late game a Braum or Leona who started as support can hold her down long enough, but that means your Rumble or Cho'gath player had better be good at laning and not try to trade with Riven as she excels in early trades against non tanks. (although Cho'gaths silence is a very effective way to shutdown Riven's combos.)
Again, Riven is rarely seen in the higher elos because she isn't all that great. And from what I hear she's disliked in Korea, which appears to be where Riot takes many of their cues for who to buff/nerf. They aren't going to nerf her because a lot of lower elo top laners hate her. She can be handled with careful play and a little patience and planning. Heck, I said before I laned against her with Annie and managed a stalemate even though Riven tried to all-in me every time she could. I'd just stun her and walk away. Once I had Tibbers the 0/0/0 Riven abandoned the lane and started joining in very early team fights to feed. (and sadly managed to surprise our ADC and get going.)
I even had a game last night where we had a Riven on our side and Riven went 0/4/2 before we declared an FF because we had lost badly. She lost her lane completely to a Shyvana, a champ who does not explicitly counter her, but who was clearly played at a higher skill level.
I know some people hate the "get gud!" argument, but I'm at that point with every "Nerf Riven" advocate. WHy don't you improve your skills and learn to beat her? She's not that tough.
MohawkBird2 votesThere is a difference between a "Nerf X", with X being an extremely easy to beat champion who just happened to get fed in their game. Riven is a legit problem in LoL right now with her stupid mobility, AoE knockup, AoE stun, AoE execute, AD scaling shield, free AD, and lastly, 4 gapclosers. Oh wait...did I forget that she has no cost system whatsoever? I understand where you come from Mvargus, but Riven is indeed an actual problem. I can see if he called for a nerf on Talon just because one happened to get fed, then I would understand your point, but because it is a legitimately overloaded and overpowered champion, his point stays valid.
And yes, the Riven and Fiora comparisons kinda made no sense.
ScreamPaste2 votesRiven gets to be mobile because
She's also incredibly squishy and will be completely useless is she loses lane, which considering how easy she is to shut down, and how many champions counter her, is not a lot to ask.
HamburgerJunior1 votesRiven gets to be mobile because
- All 4 of her dashes amount to the size of just one full sized dash, and
- she trades her damage, cc, and survivability, if she uses them to move instead of to fight.
She's also incredibly squishy and will be completely useless is she loses lane, which considering how easy she is to shut down, and how many champions counter her, is not a lot to ask.
This argument is a literal joke. Spoiler. Using 1/4 of a dash 4 different times is WAY better than using it all at once. It means you don't have to commit to ANYTHING unfavorable. Use a q to go in, oop jungle popped up, use the other 2 and e to escape. 1 dash = whelp i'm ded cause i only had one dash
ScreamPaste1 votesLiteral does not mean what you think it means.
Riven, unlike most mobile champions, has to trade her mobility for her damage, other champions have as much mobility as she does on a single ability, like Zed, or Lee Sin, she has her spread over her kit with less over all speed and range than they do, and using hers for mobility or closing the gap severely cuts her damage.
These are facts, not jokes, if every mobile champion was designed with this philosophy the game would be in a much better state.
mvargus2 votesNo, you aren't reading the post properly
Riven has 4 "dashes"
Her E is one dash with no attack but does activate her shield. It does not move through minions or champs and is extremely short. about 1/4 the length of a flash.
Her Q is three dashes, but the first 2 are the same length as her E dash, they do come with attacks, but do not move through minions. If she uses them to close the gap on a Caitlyn firing from her maximum range, the first 2 won't bring Riven close enough to attack.
The final Q dash does have the knock-up effect and can be used to flip over walls. It's the only one that really adds significant mobility. However, while it goes over walls it does not go over minions or champs.
Stopping Riven from dashing to your ADC or other damage dealer is simple. Put your tank in the way. Riven won't be able to kill a tank and she's about as squishy as any ADC. Focus her the instant she engages your tank and you get a quick kills.
Miku Lv992 votesShe's only OP in low elo. If you get good enough or at least know enough about how to deal with her, she's no better than a lot of other champions.