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So anything Cassiopeia players can look forward to in 4.22?

5G8Nri0B54··10 votes·993 views

Or is it like a 5.20 kind of thing? Or worse, an Olaf kind of thing?

We are not done here, but I'd like to really get a good feel for the effects of 4.21 before deciding which path to take. When that happens, I'll be sure to raise the discussion here (on boards), get some preliminary feedback, and then get the take-aways form that into testing on PBE.

and

Hyper carry: They flatten scaling ratios/utility and weight them considerably towards the early game. Further, the changes strictly add power to her at all stages of the game (including the early game) with the E debuff. Again, these changes don't reverse her power curve, but they significantly flatten it.

Single target: Okay, 4.21 doesn't really address the single target concerns, so, maybe it's not aimed at all of your concerns. True.

Direct damage: The changes do, however, undeniably get at the direct damage concern. The changes lower Twin Fang's best case damage (late game ratio down) and add some indirect damage (poison amp). The indirect damage amp depends on hitting E, yes, but, at the end of the day, that's solely a buff to her indirect damage. We're not done looking into Cassiopeia, and I know these changes won't entirely fix the problems you have, but I do want to point out that we share at least some of your concerns, and I think it's clear that we're in the process of addressing them.

You certainly did flatten her a bit which is something that needed to happen very VERY badly. You could flatten her even more by replacing that Passive with something better.

You admit you haven't fixed the issue of her being a single-target only mage. Aaannd...I still don't agree with your claim regarding making her more poisonous. All you did was make her E even MORE important.

To repeat what's been said a hundred times.

Here is a concept a great deal of players are confused over.

Viability =/= Satisfying+Thematic Consistent

The sole exception being if said champion is stupidly OP(release Diana sure was satisfying), in which case, it's not so much viability as it is fun to have free wins.

26 Comments

Oleandervine10 votes

I hope the passive is scrapped and E is stripped of all of its egregious fluff. The specialness of her kit should be in her poisons, not E. The Amp should be tacked onto W if it is to remain pitifully weakened.

5G8Nri0B546 votes

Or if Stashu still wants her to be nothing more than an E-button...he should consider making her similar to pre-rework Viktor, only much more extreme.

She can upgrade a choice of one of her 3 non-R abilities and whichever is upgraded becomes the focus of her kit. Then if you're a fan of doing nothing but spamming the E-button, you can still get it by upgrading her E. If you like an actual poison champion you can upgrade her Q/W.

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

{quoted} Or if Stashu still wants her to be nothing more than an E-button...he should consider making her similar to pre-rework Viktor, only much more extreme.

She can upgrade a choice of one of her 3 non-R abilities and whichever is upgraded becomes the focus of her kit. Then if you're a fan of doing nothing but spamming the E-button, you can still get it by upgrading her E. If you like an actual poison champion you can upgrade her Q/W.

How bias and ignorant are you?

If anything she is no longer just an E or just a Q smashing champ. If anything it is a hybrid more than ever

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Implying she never used her E pre-rework.

If you even played Cass once, you'd have known that her E played a huge part in why she was an un-interactive lane-bully as well as her Q. Her Q did decent damage at a range a lot of champions can not handle. Her E made it literally impossible to counter-attack due to it's raw power.

Bias and ignorant? I'm not the one who is ignorant of basic facts about Cassiopeia.

Centuros3 votes

As long as the E has a reset, it has to either be a focus, or be boring. There isn't really any other way.

5G8Nri0B547 votes

Well...there is the option of a full-on rework.

Remember, this shit all started because the rework tried to make Cassiopeia into something she isn't...Rambo with Boobs. And this issue is only made worse because her kit and archetype she was made in mind was incompatible with her rework's direction.

The only way they can salvage this is if they took it apart piece by piece and rebuild it.

The problem with Cassiopeia's rework is convoluted...especially since it sounds like their reason for reworking changes with each new post ("Shurima! LCS! She was toxic! She was a lane-bully because of Q! She was a lane-bully because Q AND E!"). However nothing works better than a well-thought out analogy.

TL;DR - Stashu took the "Sexy Hawaiian Fun-Times Lego Set" and built it up using the manual for "Undead Pirate Jungle Fever Lego Set" and trying very very VERY valiantly to make it look like it works.

Except no it doesn't. What Stashu need is either the correct manual ("let's make her into a Poison mage!") or a new set of lego appropriate for the manual he's using ("let's make a new champion instead of reworking Cassiopeia!")

fyi, as much as I love "Sexy Hawaiian Fun-Times", I'm also okay with "Undead Pirate Jungle Fever" ...if it wasn't build using lego parts from the former. Because Stashu used the exotic coconuts as cannonballs. The question you need to go up and ask Stashu then is...what does Riot have against Sexy Hawaiian Fun-Times?

5G8Nri0B543 votes

And to leave one last thing.

Her Passive...has not improved one bit.

Saevum2 votes

Her passive is still holding her. Without mention the poor skill needed to player her. I mean, she used to be difficult and rewarding, but now she just isn't.

Of course they'll nerf her (current state) and leave her boring, easy to use, and unrewarding.

Phife1 votes

I like how she is right now... you're just bad.

Grand Eleven10 votes

So he makes a thematic argument ... you counter with a skill argument.

I think your logic is just bad.

Phife1 votes

poison up ur enemies and then double E then walk away

ez

5G8Nri0B546 votes

"Plays the champion completely wrong,

ez"

Great use of that poison amp there bud.

Phife1 votes

{quoted} "Plays the champion completely wrong,

ez"

Great use of that poison amp there bud.

lmao are you downs?

AquariusGine1 votes

i feel that the 'great deal of players' is aimed at me xD

http://youtu.be/nfuArv7A8Dc?t=2m

(I am one of those losers who actually like twin fangs .. D:) My fantasy is the lightning speed strikes

Grand Eleven5 votes

Yeah each strike is fast ... but I don't see it chain gunning bites ... it times each attack ... hardly a machine gun like bite pattern.

5G8Nri0B544 votes

Your fantasy would have Cassiopeia darting into melee-range ala Elise' Spiderform Q.

I...can see it working actually, since her E's range is short enough compared to most AP mids that she might as well go even more balls-to-the-walls anyways. With this kind of change, Stashu would then be forced to make sweeping changes elsewhere, and maybe the changes would be sweeping and dramatic enough to somehow make this mess work out into something that...works.

However, there's still the obvious issue that...the rework took away the game's only Poison Mage. Or to put it another way, Stashu took a rework with two potential play-styles...and deleted on in favour of the other.

PS - and it ain't shooting it's fangs that are 5x the size of it's head at a machine-gun pace

ShinySylvee1 votes

"You could flatten her even more by replacing that Passive with something better."

First, why does every champ have to have a flat power curve? It sounds like you're upset that she doesn't have an identical one to the one she had pre-rework. Having diverse power curves is a good thing. It makes characters more different from each other and gives them an identity.

Second, her passive is already pretty strong. I can't imagine anything they could make that would be more powerful then it unless they neutered her numbers to make up for it. (And you could already make the argument that they did that with the current passive)

"You admit you haven't fixed the issue of her being a single-target only mage."

Why is this a problem? We already have loads of AOE mages. Again, making her primarily single-target gives her more of a niche and differentiates her from other mages. And I would hardly call her "single-target only." Her ult hits more then one person you know.

"I still don't agree with your claim regarding making her more poisonous."

Q max is actually viable now, therefore if you max it first, you will be dealing more poison damage in lane then E damage. Additionally, if you land your E debuff on them, your Q will be dealing more damage then it did pre-rework at pretty much every stage of the game. She's not purely about the poison now, but she never was. Her E was her most damaging ability pre-rework and it still is post-rework. If anything, I find poisoning people more important now since it helps stack your passive and scale quicker into late-game. Additionally, your Qs deal so much damage if you amplify them with E.

"Viability =/= Satisfying+Thematic Consistent"

I don't like it =/= It's bad

First on themes. Not everything is going to be thematically perfect. Overall I would say her current kit does a good job at being thematic while not being a slave to it and making a worse character because of it. It doesn't matter if a character is "thematically great" if no one wants to play them or they're just not capable of being balanced.

Also, satisfaction is largely based who's playing her. I personally find her extremely satisfying and much more fun to play then pre-rework. And there have been several posts here and on other forums saying this as well. A lot of people are finding the new Cass fun. I can't give numbers obviously since there isn't a survey that accurately depicts the whole population, but the same can't be said for the other side either. Idk, I can understand that you might be upset that they didn't remove her E and replace it with another dot or something, but complaining that the rework wasn't exactly what GD wanted it to be isn't going to accomplish much now.

Also lol at comparing her to Olaf. Nice hyperbole there. If she was olaf they wouldn't have made any changes to her post-rework at all and let her be shit forever.

chumbler5 votes

{quoted} "You could flatten her even more by replacing that Passive with something better."

First, why does every champ have to have a flat power curve? It sounds like you're upset that she doesn't have an identical one to the one she had pre-rework. Having diverse power curves is a good thing. It makes characters more different from each other and gives them an identity.

Second, her passive is already pretty strong. I can't imagine anything they could make that would be more powerful then it unless they neutered her numbers to make up for it. (And you could already make the argument that they did that with the current passive)

"You admit you haven't fixed the issue of her being a single-target only mage."

Why is this a problem? We already have loads of AOE mages. Again, making her primarily single-target gives her more of a niche and differentiates her from other mages. And I would hardly call her "single-target only." Her ult hits more then one person you know.

"I still don't agree with your claim regarding making her more poisonous."

Q max is actually viable now, therefore if you max it first, you will be dealing more poison damage in lane then E damage. Additionally, if you land your E debuff on them, your Q will be dealing more damage then it did pre-rework at pretty much every stage of the game. She's not purely about the poison now, but she never was. Her E was her most damaging ability pre-rework and it still is post-rework. If anything, I find poisoning people more important now since it helps stack your passive and scale quicker into late-game. Additionally, your Qs deal so much damage if you amplify them with E.

"Viability =/= Satisfying+Thematic Consistent"

I don't like it =/= It's bad

First on themes. Not everything is going to be thematically perfect. Overall I would say her current kit does a good job at being thematic while not being a slave to it and making a worse character because of it. It doesn't matter if a character is "thematically great" if no one wants to play them or they're just not capable of being balanced.

Also, satisfaction is largely based who's playing her. I personally find her extremely satisfying and much more fun to play then pre-rework. And there have been several posts here and on other forums saying this as well. A lot of people are finding the new Cass fun. I can't give numbers obviously since there isn't a survey that accurately depicts the whole population, but the same can't be said for the other side either. Idk, I can understand that you might be upset that they didn't remove her E and replace it with another dot or something, but complaining that the rework wasn't exactly what GD wanted it to be isn't going to accomplish much now.

Also lol at comparing her to Olaf. Nice hyperbole there. If she was olaf they wouldn't have made any changes to her post-rework at all and let her be shit forever.

Nobody wanted the rework. It was shit out on us without warning, without any chance for feedback (which was ignored anyway), and without reason. Their justifications for it are blatant lies and stashu has time and again proven his incompetence and the fact that he just flat out doesn't get it. She does not need some absolutely awful play style forced on her to "differentiate" her from other champions because she already was differentiated from them (unless you're as stupid as stashu and apparently can't see the difference between Morde and Cassiopeia).

There is no reason they should still be trying to force this piece of shit. It needs to be reverted months ago. It is worthless and gave her nothing.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

I think Cassiopeia is thematically consistent on live, much more so than she was pre-rework. I think you just don't like the theme.

The way I see it, Old Cass had two divergent foci - one based on doing poison damage over time, the other based on spamming E. Stashu picked one. Whichever choice he picked would make a significant number of players unhappy, but the alternative of not picking a focus for the kit is worse.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

The first thing you saying...has literally nothing to do with the second thing you're saying...

You start off by saying she is more thematically consistent right now as though AP Rambo is totally what she's supposed to be...and without backing your claim up, you diverged to a different subject.

Whichever choice he picked would make a significant number of players unhappy, but the alternative of not picking a focus for the kit is worse.

No it's surprisingly EASY to make a kit focus on BOTH styles. A lot of champions have divergent playstyles, and with the exception of Sion, almost all reworks have worked to accomodate that.

Hell, that "Rioter with the Sivir icon" in old GD specifically made a thread about making AP MF a thing not long after her latest rework.

Even without reworks, a ton of AP's have had divergent styles already.

Don't bother trying to give me the "but Cass is different because reasons"-bs because you know and everyone know that the rework could easily have accommodated both styles had it been better thought out.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

The first thing you saying...has literally nothing to do with the second thing you're saying...

You start off by saying she is more thematically consistent right now as though AP Rambo is totally what she's supposed to be...and without backing your claim up, you diverged to a different subject.

I did not elaborate on new Cass's thematic consistency because you are clearly able to identify the theme of the new design without any help from me.

Your complaint is not "new Cass does not have a theme", it is "new Cass does not have the theme I want her to have".

No it's surprisingly EASY to make a kit focus on BOTH styles. A lot of champions have divergent playstyles, and with the exception of Sion, almost all reworks have worked to accomodate that.

Hell, that "Rioter with the Sivir icon" in old GD specifically made a thread about making AP MF a thing not long after her latest rework.

AP and AD MF have the same theme. Shoot people with bullets to deal tons of damage.

Old AP and AD Sion have different themes. AP Sion is about bursting people down, while AD Sion is about being an immortal lifestealing tank.

The first case is fine to support in design. The second case is not.

Even without reworks, a ton of AP's have had divergent styles already.

If you want to talk about other specific champions, I'm happy to do so.

In general, I believe that one strong theme for a champion is better than multiple weak ones, both from a kit health and player satisfaction standpoint.

Don't bother trying to give me the "but Cass is different because reasons"-bs because you know and everyone know that the rework could easily have accommodated both styles had it been better thought out.

I don't believe that Cass is different than other reworks. I do believe the rework could have been executed better.

I don't believe you can accommodate both poison mage and E spammer into the same design without watering down both themes.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

So Stashu chose to go with the theme that works against her identity as a poison mage by turning her into Rambo with boobs.

Thematically Consistent+balanced vs. Thematically Inconsistent+balanced

Feel free to choose. The new Cassiopeia is more appropriate of a Jinx wearing a wizard hat.

And not to mention, there is no proof that having two themes waters them down as themes rarely occupy the same space. It isn't some quota to be filled and it certainly isn't a discrete value.

Cassiopeia was reworked initially because...well we were given a dozen changing reasons over the period of a few months, but the latest justification was "Her Q did decent damage while her E made it literally impossible to engage Cassiopeia to counter her Q-harass, so one of them had to go".

They could have gone with the direction that made her thematically consistent, or the direction that goes against her identity.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

So Stashu chose to go with the theme that works against her identity as a poison mage by turning her into Rambo with boobs.

I don't want to spend much time here, as this horse is thoroughly dead.

I believe there are two competing themes in Old Cass and you're only focused on one. In addition to your contention that she's a poison mage, I believe she's a gorgon. As such, I think her E and R are very thematic to that identity.

And not to mention, there is no proof that having two themes waters them down as themes rarely occupy the same space. It isn't some quota to be filled and it certainly isn't a discrete value.

Old Sion is an example where having competing themes results in a confused, unsatisfying design. New Gragas is an example of how focusing a kit on a single theme creates a more satisfying design. You can probably have two themes in a kit if you're careful about the design.

The problem with Old Cass is that her two themes don't work well in the same kit. A poison DoT champion ought to be countered by all-inning, so the DoTs don't have time to kill you. However, the damage output on E makes that bad counterplay, and instead favors a plan where you stay out of E range all the time. But that means long duration tradey fights that are precisely what a DoT mage wants.

Cassiopeia was reworked initially because...well we were given a dozen changing reasons over the period of a few months, but the latest justification was "Her Q did decent damage while her E made it literally impossible to engage Cassiopeia to counter her Q-harass, so one of them had to go".

The reason to rework Cass was that there was no way to make her balanced without giving her an utterly oppressive lane phase.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

As such, I think her E and R are very thematic to that identity.

Her R, goes without saying. Her E, what?

I've heard of the Gorgon comparison often, but asides from her R, literally nothing about Cassiopeia fits the Gorgon theme. She was made during the era where Riot created a champion solely as a 300-reference. This is why I feel her R was thrown in because she has a snake tail and Medusa had snake hairs. But asides from that, she lacks everything that makes Medusa...Medusa. Not even her rather controversial backstory or themes from it.

Granted...I'd actually be open with a Gorgon-themed champion whose abilities relies on more abilities akin to her R where they have different effects based on orientation, but that's unlikely what they'd do with Cassiopeia...

** PS** - plus I think if they made such a champion it's probably be a mirror-based or hypnotist champion

The problem with Old Cass is that her two themes don't work well in the same kit. A poison DoT champion ought to be countered by all-inning, so the DoTs don't have time to kill you. However, the damage output on E makes that bad counterplay, and instead favors a plan where you stay out of E range all the time. But that means long duration tradey fights that are precisely what a DoT mage wants.

I've mentioned that a number of times already.

This is why I've suggested making her more like a mutalisk may be the best-if un-elegant approach now.

There's an obvious bias here, but I'd say the best choice would have been to make her more Q-centric and focus on DoT due to thematic consistency since nothing about her apperance and demeanor screams AP Rambo.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Her R, goes without saying. Her E, what?

I think her E is a magical snake bite. Quite in line with what I expect from a mage that has been cursed into gorgon form.

I think it would be cool if her E delivered a poison, rather than enhancing the effect of her poisons.

Granted...I'd actually be open with a Gorgon-themed champion whose abilities relies on more abilities akin to her R where they have different effects based on orientation, but that's unlikely what they'd do with Cassiopeia...

I think it's a fertile design space. Would be fun to leap onto an enemy to bite them or constrict an enemy in my awesome tail. As it stands today, Elise does spider lady much better than Cassiopeia does snake lady. Now, I wouldn't want Cassiopeia to transform into a snake, but I would like her buttons to feel more snakey, like Elise's human form buttons feel spidery.

This is why I've suggested making her more like a mutalisk may be the best-if un-elegant approach now.

I really don't like the idea of two divergent modes in one champion. Whenever we do this thing, we always end up with one mode being the viable way to play and the other one taking collateral damage because the viable way is too strong. See also Ezreal, AP.

There's an obvious bias here, but I'd say the best choice would have been to make her more Q-centric and focus on DoT due to thematic consistency since nothing about her apperance and demeanor screams [AP Rambo]

I think making Cassiopeia Q centric was a possible choice. I think that rework bothers about as many people as this one did.

In particular, I worry about a Q centric kit feeling too samey. There are many champions with a similar button, e.g. Brand Karthus Malzahar Swain Lux. Not all of these examples are DoTs, but the targeting mechanics and zoning power are pretty similar. Meanwhile, E is a button with only one analogue Ryze, and even that one is only a kinda-sorta-similar-ish thing.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

I really don't like the idea of two divergent modes in one champion. Whenever we do this thing, we always end up with one mode being the viable way to play and the other one taking collateral damage because the viable way is too strong. See also Ezreal, AP.

As former Viktor and occasional temporary Khazix main, I can instantly tell you what went wrong with those two champion's evolving designs that I specifically made sure to avoid with the Cassiopeia suggestion I made.

You are correct with those champions, only a single style is ever viable 99% of the time. Death Augment for Vik, and whatever the **** the latest round of nerfs/re-balances Kha received in the last patch that screwed around with him. There is always only one path.

Why? Because no matter how you evolve those two champions, THEY WILL ALWAYS BE THAT CHAMPION with only slight differences.

Kha'zix will always be that squishy melee AD Assassin. Viktor will always be the AP mage with a short-ranged nuke and long ranged laser poke. Some abilities are a little more emphasized than others. Because of that, it makes it really easy for players to figure out what is the only optimal path to take.

But the Mutalisk. Can you tell me which is strictly better? A Guardian or the Devourer? Cassiopeia with a lingerie made of fangs or a Cassiopeia with a bandolier full of fangs? Cassiopeia the venomous snake or the big buff python Cassiopeia?

You can't because they can not be compared. And this is what differentiates my Mutalisk-suggestion from Riot's past failed evolution designs. A Mutalisk's evolutions can not be compared because the are two fundamentally different and opposite beings that have shades of their predecessor (flying assault-type unit), but they diverged so much to occupy completely different niches, and THAT is the Mutalisk's strength, their sheer adaptability.

(more importantly, it's the only way I can see Riot fixing this debacle without it being a screw you to the other playerbase after Cassiopeia having been what she was for years)

**PS **- no hard feelings meant despite whatever tone I may have taken. Unless your name is xJLx MCHammer who is un-subtly looking for a fight, I'm just responding to whatever I can respond to to express my side of things.

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