NOT close is NOT fun

Plasma Servant··4 votes·761 views

One of the things I have found is that a game if it is not close, is not fun ... win or lose. I understand immature minds like winning regardless, children that "gee! I won!" But anyone past the age of 19 will not care if they win or lose if the match-up is close.

In ARAM it should always be close, and ARAM ought to be where riot looks to see if champions are in fact balanced. ARAM removes all the variables. It removes "ganks" it removes picks and counter picks. It is almost always about team composition. And it is fun if it is an even match-up, and ARAM shows what champions are truly op or not. So all champions should be balanced, not via pro-play, but via ARAM. Who cares if professionals do well if they know who they are up against and pick champions based on what the other team has? ARAM you have no knowledge of the other team, and you get random champions. Much better for telling if a champion (or type of champion) is op or not. Plus, it has the added benefit of being in the only mode that has reasonable probability of being without drama.

But fun is a close game, not a blow-out. Like I said, childish minds have fun winning a blowout; a mature mind will want an even match. That can only happen if riot studies ARAM to balance champions. It might be harder to do, but then it would show that their programmers aren't a bunch of coders, and they can actually engineer something.

19 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

ARAM is not intended to have, and will never have, true balance. It's a giant mess of flailing weapons and death, you can't balance things from that

Plasma Servant2 votes

1st, I hope you never play ARAM ... serious ARAM players will hate your attitude.

ARAM can be balanced, but it would mean that every champion pairing, in the hands of equally skilled players, have NO advantage over the other. That they are different is one thing, that champion A would always beat champion B one-on-one is another. If going toe-to-toe with any other champion would give you NO idea of which would win, that is balance, and it would be across all games, all modes balance.

BluePolarizer2 votes

that's not possible.

Let's say a champion can 1 shot monsters. That would be extremely OP on Rift because they can take Baron by just walking up to it. They'd also be worthless on ARAM because there are no monsters to kill. If you can understand this concept - that on different maps, a champion can go from extremely OP to worthless - then you will also understand that a champion balanced on Rift could be worthless or OP on ARAM.

Plasma Servant2 votes

Totally wrong ... if they are balanced on ARAM, then they are not going to be able to 1 shot monsters. Unless you are saying that a champion should have way more damage against monsters than against other enemy.

Your hypothetical is a non-sequitur ... the idea would be that damage would vary based on the kind of enemy you face ... remove that, balance for ARAM and balance would be everywhere.

The idea that everything is balanced for the rift would force unbalanced for other locals is just as bad as balance for other locals would imbalance the rift. So if what you are saying is true, then balance for ARAM and let the rift be imbalanced. Riot has not proven what I'm saying is wrong. They have never tried to base balance on ARAM.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Riot doesn't balance for ARAM because LCS is not played on ARAM. that is their decision. I don't say that I agree with it but this is their game and they've decided that Rift is going to be the premier game mode.

your dill king1 votes

I suppose I believe they put these boards here so that users can actually influence what they do. There is no reason that the LCS could not be ARAM ... that would be a lot more interesting to a lot of people out here.

BluePolarizer1 votes

I would watch LCS on ARAM but not sure that Riot wants this to be the case.

Plasma Servant1 votes

I'd settle for it at least being part of the LCS. Let's face it, the first few minutes are boring, and the only way to not have it boring is to throw away even more skill (ganks are not about skill ... never have been, never will be).

insaiyanbacca1 votes

i could see like pros that aren't playing in the games that day playing some arams while they are setting stuff up just to pass the time for viewers tbh.

RogueWill1 votes

ARAM ins't supposed to be balanced, is supposed to be highly unbalanced. The reason why aram is more drama free comes form the fact that no one expect anything from you. They all start with the mentality that you never play that champion and hence you suck at it and you will probably fed until proven wrong. Most people have the mid set that is a 50/50 chance you woudl win and that expectation is what helps with teh ragers

Plasma Servant2 votes

The reason all modes should be drama free is that it is all just a game. Ranked is a game. It is not serious. But sportsmanship requires playing your best. If you play ARAM all the time, you get used to playing all the champions you own, and at least some of the time get to play free-to-play you don't own. I own a majority of the champions ... some of them I don't enjoy playing (or even seeing on my team) either because they are op as all get out, or anemic. Generally that means the game might not be close (though sometimes, both side happen to have anemic teams, and then it is fun in the extreme).

Ragers are going to rage, and they generally are the least sportsman like ... they don't try their hardest, or they try to carry when the role of the champion is NOT carry (my personal least favorite are people playing tanks like they should be the carry). It might be that many of these are people with no experience in the champion ... but if I have NEVER played a champion before I tend to at least pay attention to the recommended build (if not pull up the wiki page on the second monitor and read it while loading. (New champions coming out all the time for some reason only riot could fathom ... just how many adc's does the game really need anyway riot?)

What I'd much prefer is that all champions are more balanced ... so that NOT knowing what the other team has does NOT make a difference in play (yeah, I know, ranked is not like that, but it should change anyway ... it should be ARAM).

your dill king2 votes

That any mode ... at any level ... has drama is from people being less than sportsman. Championship ... they shake hands at the end, and they respect each other no matter what. The winners are gracious in winning, and honorable when losing. Losers gloat when winning and complain when they lose.

Which is not to say complaining here is complaining about losing ... seems like the originator of the thread does not like winning by a land slide either.

Plasma Servant2 votes

Why should ARAM not be balanced? Why should it be imbalanced? I see no reason for that to be that way. If every champion were balanced against every other champion, it would always be balanced.

Sightless662 votes

ARAM tells you the balance of all champions in a constant 5v5 siege where no one is allowed to back. That's not representative of the game in general.

It measures sustained poking and teamfighting situations. Those aren't the only strengths champions have in this game, and it will severely overvalue champions strong at those. It also gives easy initiation access via the snowball to champions who normally don't have it, so champions normally balanced around being unable to easily initiate (see Galio) will have their key weakness lowered. Similarly, champions based around finding solo kills or skirmishes and/or around controlling objectives will do very poorly because those options are removed from them.

There's a reason champions with high healing and high poke do very well on ARAM and champions based around finding pick offs and avoiding teamfights do very poorly. It's because the mode doesn't allow any options for the pick-off and assassination characters to play with. Like you said, "it removes ganks", and it also removes other non-teamfighting based play, but that isn't all that League of Legends is about.

Really, I get what you're saying about the randomness being nice for seeing a champion's potential against an aggregate of all other champions, but you're just completely ignoring that ARAM only shows a limited subset of the game. We can't balance around something that is designed to be better for some champions than Summoner's Rift is.

If every champion were balanced against every other champion, it would always be balanced.

Two things. First, that's just not true. If I'm playing an assassin (let's say Evelynn), I might be balanced against a teamfighting tank jungler by avoiding direct teamfights against them, creating skirmish situations with ganks, and trying to slow them down early on before they ramp up. The matchup could easily be 50/50 on Summoner's rift even though both characters use different options. On ARAM, Eve can't bully early, she can't skirmish/gank, and she can't avoid teamfighting. As a result, she'll be worse than the tanks there, because her ideal options are gone while theirs are intact. Expecting her to compete equally with a tank on the things a tank is good at isn't.

Second, that is an unrealistic goal. The only way every champion will ever be balanced against every other is if there is no differentiation. Any kit differences, no matter how small, will be better against some champions than another. You can't make every champion equally effective against other champion unless they are exactly the same. Literally, that's the only way it is possible. The more different champions are, the more they will counter each other. Part of design is deciding how much of that is acceptable to you and your playerbase. That's why some successful games like Dota are considered more balanced than League despite having much, much harder counters.

Plasma Servant2 votes

if all champions are balanced in ha, then all will be balanced everywhere else as well. If they are balanced, then you won't have situations where an assassin can jump on someone, get a kill and disappear ... too bad for those that want that mode, they will have to learn to play when they could be killed just as easily as kill. Oh, they would have to have some skills. Or tanks that can run up to a champion, cc it, bash it to death, and only lose a small portion of health. Balance would say that if a champion can't hardly be killed, that it can't do much damage (or cc for that matter) so squishies (those assassins you talk about) can get away to fight another day.

Not having any "sure thing" would mean it would take real skill to win ... not just the luck of the draw. My point is that more of the fun of the game is NOT in pick and counter pick (that is a "learn it, and you are done ... with all the time in the world to do the appropriate choice). Pick counter pick is a low skill task that a computer could be programmed to do better than humans (more like chess ... which last time I checked, computers beat the pants off human competition.)

So balance would take it from being a first person shooter mentality to what a MOBA ought to be; patient, thoughtful competition and how to find small mistakes in what the opposing team does. If I wanted to play a FPS, I'd do call of duty.

Sightless661 votes

I'll respond to pretty much everything you wrote, but I'm going to lead with my final point because you need to address this. The big flaw to me, the one thing that really fucks your entire argument, is the winrates are different between Howling Abyss and Summoner's Rift. Think about Summoner's Rift for a second. Every class can work, right? Every one of them can be good. You have high and low winrate champions from every group. Now, take a look at the Howling Abyss. Note how all of the highest winrate champions. Note how all the lowest winrate champions are assassins. No variance. Class-based winrates are extremely predictive, to the point where 60% and 40% winrates for given classes are normal.

So, how can a map be used to balance Summoner's Rift, when it clearly supports certain types of champions over others? How can we say that a mode with extreme differences in how strong classes are can be used to balance a mode that has much more equal strengths between classes. Simple answer: it can't. If we make assassins balanced on Howling Abyss, they'll be running around one-shotting everyone all the time on Summoner's Rift.

You'd maybe have a little bit more of an argument if you were talking about random pick on Summoner's Rift, because that would at least be the same map, but saying that for random pick on Howling Abyss doesn't work.

If they are balanced, then you won't have situations where an assassin can jump on someone, get a kill and disappear

Just so we're clear, you do realize that if assassins were going to be balanced based on Howling Abyss, we'd need to massively buff all of them, right? They're the worst characters there by far (seriously, have you even looked at the winrates on that map?). You're actually going to have to make them better at jumping on someone, getting a kill and disappearing if you want to make them balanced on that map.

Seriously, my example last post was to show how assassins are balanced on Summoner's Rift but underpowered on Howling Abyss. How did you get that assassins would have to be nerfed or have their playstyle removed to work on Howling Abyss? They'd get buffed.

If every champion were balanced against every other champion, it would always be balanced.

That's not what you would get if you balanced Howling Abyss. If you gave every character a 50% winrate there, it would only be because they won 40% of the time against one champion and won 60% of the time against another. That doesn't address your problem, it just makes it random whether someone wins or loses based on what champion they get.

You can't make a champion have the same winrate against every other champion, so the entire idea of this getting rid of counterpicking by balancing around Howling Abyss can't work. It just isn't related at all.

Balance would say that if a champion can't hardly be killed, that it can't do much damage (or cc for that matter)

That's not what balance means. That is a design issue, and it's actually a terrible one. We've proven many, many, many times in every MOBA that a character that only absorbs damage without either dealing damage or applying CC/utility is terrible, and doesn't feel good to play. This is basic MOBA design. It doesn't work.

Balance is allowing many different options and creating situations where each of them is valuable. It is NOT removing options that don't fit a narrow definition of what should be allowed.

Not having any "sure thing" would mean it would take real skill to win

ARAMs have a sure thing: Poke, or hard initiation. Characters with those strengths win much more there. Characters without them lose much more. You're ignoring this point in favor of overfocusing on the random aspect.

if all champions are balanced in ha, then all will be balanced everywhere else as well.

No, they'll be balanced in an environment based around poke and teamfighting. Take them back to Summoner's Rift where there are more options and you'll see balance variations because there are more variables.

The only way this is possible is if you remove all the classes that don't work in the Howling Abyss.

you won't have situations where an assassin can jump on someone, get a kill and disappear ... too bad for those that want that mode, they will have to learn to play when they could be killed just as easily as kill. Oh, they would have to have some skills. Or tanks that can run up to a champion, cc it, bash it to death, and only lose a small portion of health. Balance would say that if a champion can't hardly be killed, that it can't do much damage (or cc for that matter) so squishies (those assassins you talk about) can get away to fight another day.

Oh... You do want to remove all those classes. That's just terrible design. "I don't like certain types of design, so I want to remove them". Seriously, what else am I supposed to be reading from this? You already said earlier that like Howling Abyss because it doesn't have "ganks", and now you're pretty just writing off over half the classes in the game because they don't fit your idea of what should be allowed. That's not good design. That's terrible.

My point is that more of the fun of the game is NOT in pick and counter pick

And my point is, you're ignoring that ARAM is fundamentally unbalanced because the Howling Abyss map systematically favors certain types of champions. Your entire assumption that the map is balanced and/or can be used to balance summoner's rift just because there isn't any picking is wrong. It completely ignores the fundamental differences the map has from Summoner's Rift. Those differences affect champion balance. Any champion not based around poke or hard initiation is worse than they would be on Summoner's Rift because of the map.

Not having a pick phase is not equal to being a good representation of another map.

On top of that, picking and counter picking is a fundamental part of the design of a MOBA game. It's going to happen when you have even the smallest differences in champion design. Any given champion is always going to have a design they work well against and a design they work poorly against. Anything unique is going to do that. It's unavoidable. Like I said before, balancing the importance of counterpicking against the number of unique mechanics pretty much is MOBA design at its core. You can't get rid of counterpicking without killing a game, because the only way to do that is to remove all the characters or make them extremely similar.

So balance would take it from being a first person shooter mentality to what a MOBA ought to be;

I find this really, really funny, because attempting to make things balanced by making all the options players have similar is actually much more FPS-like. MOBA games have to balance different playstyles by offering different options and then strengthening or weaking options that have too much or too little power. FPS games balance things by making every player the same. They're fundamentally different approaches to game design.

Plasma Servant2 votes

First, thanks for taking the time to actually read what I posted. It is amazing how many people respond without actually giving thought to what was said. You obviously read it. Thanks!

Though I'd still say you aren't thinking it through ... I'll answer all of your points as well ... again, last point first.

I find this really, really funny, because attempting to make things balanced by making all the options players have similar is actually much more FPS-like.

I don't know what FPS games you play, but the ones I've played have a lot of variation between characters ... though it is done not so much with varying the "champion" but with varying the equipment they carry. Going from carrying a sniper rifle and being slow in reload to fast-fire quick reload (assassin vs. DOT champion the way things have been playing out more recently in LOL). There is a lot of variation in player equipment, and it does the same as what league has recently been doing. LOL is feeling more and more like a FPS all the time.

And my point is, you're ignoring that ARAM is fundamentally unbalanced because the Howling Abyss map systematically favors certain types of champions.

Currently the top win rate champions on HA are Galio, Sona, Tarric, Lux, Sion, Heimer, Ziggs, Mundo, Naut, and Teemo. Hmmm, tanks, support, ap carry, and marksman are all represented. Is there a champion type that isn't represented? Well, perhaps AD marksman ... Teemo is an AP marksman (his secondary role is ap)

On the rift the top are Brand, Rammus, Amumu, Malz, Mundo, Tryn, Voli, Miss Fortune, Skarner, and Tarric. AP carry, tank, AD marksman, You might say there is a little more variance because there is an AD marksman, but there isn't an ap marksman.

Seems the best champions might be different, but there isn't any class of champion that isn't represented in both.

Just so we're clear, you do realize that if assassins were going to be balanced based on Howling Abyss, we'd need to massively buff all of them, right?

No. You are thinking only of one way to balance. The idea of balance can be achieved by either raising one, or lowering the other. The other thing that I think you are missing is that assassins are NOT under-performing on HA any more than they are on the rift. The worst performers on the rift Nidalee, Ryze, Kha, Urgot, Riven, Rumble, Azir, Rek, Bard and Gragas. At lesat 5 of those are assassins. For HA the worst performing are Bard (useless in both locations), LaBlanc, Evelynn, Kha, Akali, Lee Sin, Rek, Rengar, Riven, and Kassadin (which I find hard to believe, I haven't lost a game with him yet). While HA seems to find a couple more assassins less playable, I would think that is more due to a problem between the chair and keyboard (like I said, I have yet to lose when I'm playing Kassadin ... he rocks on HA ... too much if you ask me). But I do admit, there is one (or two, depending on how you classify them) more assassins in the bottom on HA than the rift.

But the assumption that balancing them means they need a massive buff is NOT the only way to balance. Assassins are particularly vulnerable to hard cc ... so if you nerf hard cc, it isn't a massive buff to them, but they can do their job and not be the worst on both maps ... nerf the world of cc, and you buff assassins everywhere. But be careful ... yi on HA is way op if there isn't a hard cc to counter him (and that means he needs some attention in the nerf department as well).

You can't make a champion have the same winrate against every other champion, so the entire idea of this getting rid of counterpicking by balancing around Howling Abyss can't work.

This is so frustrating ... I don't believe that you can't make it happen. If an engineer doesn't believe he can do something, the chance of him actually trying and doing it is very small indeed. But people used to think that getting men to land on the moon was impossible. Those that did not accept that as true made it happen. In a sense, I give the engineers at riot more credit than that. If they were told that they had to do it, I fully believe they could do it. Because nobody thinks it can be done, and nobody says it must be done, then it certainly won't even be attempted. You can't do what you don't try to do ... that is for sure.

On top of that, picking and counter picking is a fundamental part of the design of a MOBA game.

Blind pick works on the rift as does team builder. Neither have the mechanics of pick/counter pick, yet it is also MOBA (at least it used to be). It isn't an all or none situation, and balance is NOT going to change the draft pick as some players do exceedingly well with really difficult champions (for example, my not losing on HA with Kassadin seems to be an anomaly from what I can tell).

So again, thanks for reading. THAT I appreciate more than you can possibly tell. And while I see what you are saying, I'd say it involves two major things that I find not necessary.

  1. Balance is achieved by buffing low win rate champions. That is only one way to balance, though it is the simplest (the mentality is throughout riot ... "we felt that ______ needed a little love...." has always been met with a buff instead of analyzing what they have been failing against, and nerfing that mechanic ... simple fix for yi would be nerf his attack, and make it so a single champion cannot be cc'd for more than "X" amount of time every "Y" seconds.

  2. If you can't see how something is done, it isn't possible to do it. I worked as an engineer for a company that had an order entry system that limited the size of they order that could be entered ... nobody could see a way to do it any differently than what had been done in the past, so they didn't try. My VP came to me and told me to find a different way, to come up with a different method. Engineer that I am, I didn't accept "it can't be done" and so I invented what had not been done before. What had been the limit on size (the time to figure out how to enter the order) was removed ... the largest order they had done in the past took 3 days to figure out how to enter it (from the paper sales order). The system that I invented took 15 minutes to enter, and found an unresolved error in the order while it was doing it. End result was $100 million increase in revenue. I don't easily take "it can't be done" just because nobody has tried to do it.

It may be that riot doesn't have engineers that can solve these problems, but I doubt that. I'm not the smartest engineer in the world, but given a task, I at least knew that you don't accomplish great things by doing the same thing again and again. You have to do something differently. If you expect a different result after doing the same thing ... well, isn't that one definition of insanity? :-D

Thanks again for reading.

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