I Don't Generally Mind Lifesteal, but...

Avios1··50 votes·3,936 views

https://youtu.be/Y1St3wVhvsQ

This just seems a bit overtuned, that Cait could sustain herself throughout the fight when she had 4 people collapse on her.

Granted, she was full build, but it just seems a bit too strong that she was able to survive 4 people collapsing onto her.

Match: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2381667237/24963945

EDIT: Yes, she was full build and Blue Team was underleveled, but that should not excuse Caitlyn from being able to draintank 3 people on her face.

70 Comments

Handy Sandy 39 votes

I'm also fine with lifesteal, and I know that ADCs are supposed to have a strong lategame..but this just isn't okay. If they had a really good source of burst damage on their team, cait would've probably died but again ADCs are supposed to be squishy..this isn't being squishy. That's being a drain tank like olaf or vlad

Super balanced that she can also take turrets fast and has a pretty good laning phase,

Troll for Trump8 votes

they had a really good source of burst damage

Like assassins.

Assassins can't have large burst windows or you end up with ADCs that kill thembefore they can burst them, or heal off of them.

MohawkBird4 votes

[deleted]

Volkri1 votes

I don't mind assassins that much, but I do mind when mages/adc's do an assassins job better than an assassin. Vayne Syndra

RavenMagus8 votes

To be fair, it was partially Cait being an ADC, but also partially that big fat Redemption heal that you have no way of stopping because it has a giant range and is usable while dead.

GigglesO29 votes

Dw, tanks can't have in combat sustain, but auto attack champions can.

GigglesO27 votes

{quoted}

Dw, tanks can't have in combat sustain, but auto attack champions can.

Some melee champions were even nerfed because they healed too much in combat, which is exactly what they were designed to do, Aatrox anyone?

Astôlfo21 votes

"lifesteal is fine" "lifesteal is balanced" "just dodge the autos"

DorkunedAuras11 votes

Jax Shen ok

Pale Pirate3 votes

Jax item 3047 item 3047 item 3047 item 3047 item 3047 item 3047

Who remembers?

TeCoolMage7 votes

pink ward her bullets noob

places down ward

misclicks and auto attacks it

Maximum Morde18 votes

This isn't even the reason I hate lifesteal. I hate lifesteal because poke is really hard to get to stick due to it at the moment. I miss being able to force bad players out of lane without going oom myself and thus not actually being a threat.

Lord Dusteon16 votes

As much as I dislike Cait, that was an entirely full build, late game Caitlyn and the enemy team made a lot of mistakes. First off, they had 2 tanks (one of which had almost ONLY health items and no real defense) try to fight her; this led to her health not really lowing, because 1 tank and 1 really high hp person with no defense means Cait is taking low damage and healing a lot. Then Vi comes in, except she only has 2 damage items and eh defense. She also does not ult, which means (combined with Leona being all hp and almost dead) that Caitlyn heals almost 500 hp from Dangerous Game and Lifesteal from the Leona death. Then Caitlyn flashes out of Ezreal's ult and exits Vi's range for a bit, enough time for Thresh's redemption and shield to go off, while Ezreal isn't even in the fight and by the time he enters misses all of his skills on Caitlyn.

This is more of an example in why you build actual defenses on a support and have your damage dealers with you in fights.

Avios111 votes

I don't have a problem with Cait as much as I have a problem with her having healed 2000+ at least that whole fight, her HP pool doubled to that of a Tank, and still allowed her to dish out more damage than their whole team combined.

Nipsahoy1 votes

{quoted}

I don't have a problem with Cait as much as I have a problem with her having healed 2000+ at least that whole fight, her HP pool doubled to that of a Tank, and still allowed her to dish out more damage than their whole team combined.

When exactly are adc supposed to shine then? I mean you people don't want to them to have good laning phases, you don't want them to have a good midgame, you don't want them to be able to use lifesteal or do a lot of late game and you want them to be killable by every class... I mean some of these complaints are just laughable.

Avios11 votes

I'm fine with them being able to use lifesteal.

I am not fine with them using Lifesteal to do Aatrox DrMundo Vladimir's jobs better.

Carnerox3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JHmZjqXY,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-25T00:14:05.212+0000)

As much as I dislike Cait, that was an entirely full build, late game Caitlyn and the enemy team made a lot of mistakes. First off, they had 2 tanks (one of which had almost ONLY health items and no real defense) try to fight her;

Thing is, you can't really tell what defenses they had. With LDR and masteries it's not like armor would do shit anyway.

this led to her health not really lowing, because 1 tank and 1 really high hp person with no defense means Cait is taking low damage and healing a lot. Then Vi comes in, except she only has 2 damage items and eh defense.

She also CCed the living shit out of her and did decent burst damage. If not for the fact that warlords gave her +20% lifesteal and she would have 100% died but the stacking lifesteal made it so that she just drain tanked.

She also does not ult, which means (combined with Leona being all hp and almost dead) that Caitlyn heals almost 500 hp from Dangerous Game and Lifesteal from the Leona death.

Thing is, Caitlyn shouldn't be able to heal equal to 30% off a single auto attack so Vi shouldn't have had to ult. You shouldn't need to burst a squishy equal to 200% of their HP before they go down.

Then Caitlyn flashes out of Ezreal's ult and exits Vi's range for a bit, enough time for Thresh's redemption and shield to go off, while Ezreal isn't even in the fight and by the time he enters misses all of his skills on Caitlyn.

Her flash was the only decent play Caitlyn actually made. She made several mistakes herself and the only reason she survived is because Caitlyn and lifesteal is retardedly overtuned.

This is more of an example in why you build actual defenses on a support and have your damage dealers with you in fights.

Again, tanks had decent defense but all that aside, this is a squishy ass champion who is designed to deal a lot of damage but also be very fragile. She's draintanking like vlad or olaf. Idc if those champions had 0 damage items, two bruisers and one damage dealer's worth of base damage should be able to ERADICATE ANY. ANY. squishy champion.

This is just bullshit and you know it.

Lord Dusteon9 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM DonaldJTrump,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JHmZjqXY,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2016-12-25T00:49:58.981+0000)

Thing is, you can't really tell what defenses they had. With LDR and masteries it's not like armor would do shit anyway.

They linked match history. Leona had ONE armor item (Locket, for 30 armor), 5 armor form runes, and ~10 armor from masteries. She had basically only health vs a lategame adc, so she was LITERALLY free lifesteal fodder.

She also CCed the living shit out of her and did decent burst damage. If not for the fact that warlords gave her +20% lifesteal and she would have 100% died but the stacking lifesteal made it so that she just drain tanked.

Her damage was decent but she didn't ult at all and Caitlyn flashed out when she was about to die, which gave enough time for Redemption + Thresh shields to come in. She STILL would have died if Ezreal had actually landed a single skill.

Thing is, Caitlyn shouldn't be able to heal equal to 30% off a single auto attack so Vi shouldn't have had to ult. You shouldn't need to burst a squishy equal to 200% of their HP before they go down.

She got another crit on a squishy, no defense support while killing them while being very low on health. She had ~35%-40% lifesteal +5% missing hp and due to Runaan's hit 3 champions. If Vi had actually ulted, or Leona had gone "huh I have no tankiness whatsoever and all my abilities are on cooldown now, MAYBE don't stick around" Caitlyn would have died pretty easily. Or if Leona and Maokai actually got Caitlyn when any of their team was nearby instead of by themself.

Her flash was the only decent play Caitlyn actually made. She made several mistakes herself and the only reason she survived is because Caitlyn and lifesteal is retardedly overtuned.

She did a pretty good trap + E on Mao at the beginning, and managed her autos well while staying within the safest zone she could. Yes, that does show up as mostly standing still and autoattacking, because she was either rooted, CC'd, or would have left the heal zone if she moved out.

Again, tanks had decent defense but all that aside, this is a squishy ass champion who is designed to deal a lot of damage but also be very fragile. She's draintanking like vlad or olaf. Idc if those champions had 0 damage items, two bruisers and one damage dealer's worth of base damage should be able to ERADICATE ANY. ANY. squishy champion.

No, A tank had decent defenses. The support had no defense and was literally free health to lifesteal from. She's drain tanking against 1 tank with low damage, 1 support with crap damage, and 1 jungler with ok damage, and quickly changes that to just the tank and jungler. That was one bruiser and 2 tanks, and pretty damn importantly one of the tanks has most of their damage through sustained damage (not good vs any adc) and %hp damage (not that great against squishies), one of the 'tanks' has no defense, no offense, and has incredibly low damage because they are a support, and one of the damage dealers didn't use their ult whatsoever when they should have.

If 3 enemies that are almost all just meat shields try to fight a lategame champion while out of position, without their team or actual damage dealers, WHILE the enemy has their damage dealers up, they damn well better die if they play and build badly.

This is just bullshit and you know it.

What's more bullshit is thinking "oh hey the tanks both dived a squishy while their own squishies were nowhere nearby to help, then got fucked because it was a full build, carry, and they played VERY poorly (Leona had Exhaust the entire fight and never used it for instance), nerf squishy".

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

While it's true what you say about Leona, you didn't mention her W resistances, should add that to make your argument even more solid.

TimerClock13 votes

Collapsed...? You went in one by one :( That was a simple mistake. She will heal herself for sure if you can't burst while she's CC'ed. She was fully built as well so... Unlucky.

RocketRelm9 votes

Also I'm fairly sure that Thresh's shield+heal did a lot of grunt work in terms of healing than Caitlyn's lifesteal did, and trying to sell this as 4 people jumped on me at once, and Cait just lifestyled her way through them all is serious overselling.

doublelift fg6 votes

let's not pretend that because of that lifesteal in this video is fine

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

Shadowmender1 votes

You can read check the match that was linked. Leona had no armor vs a late game adc, which meant she was dangerous game fodder. Maokai went in alone, and lost 50% hp before even flashing on top of her. And vi didn't ult.

jurrrr7 votes

This is what I don't get about LoL boards. How does this post have 34 upvotes, complaining about a lvl 18 cait full build? does no one have a brain on these boards?

Niaphim5 votes

Lifesteal should be half as effective on ranged champions. I think it would solve most of the problems with current lifesteal and not gut champions that really need it.

DunkinNoobs4 votes

That Vi needs to build damage. I've never seen a Vi do so little damage to an adc with her Q.

Dengeden4 votes

Considering that Mao was 17 while she was 18, it's safe to say she was fed. Also it was more like a continuous 1v3. Ez missed most of his stuff. Also, Vi built Deadman's instead of Randy's and Lucidity instead of Tabi.

Blåbæret4 votes

The problem with lifesteal is that it can be obtained in such massive amounts (+ mastery) that it becomes absolutely ridiculous. Life steal through items should be limited to maximum 10%, and it should not be possible to buy more than one item. Warlord's needs to be removed as currently it only serves as a free pass for bad players in lane. You can't force them out of lane due to them just healing all the poke damage up in a matter of seconds.

BT must be nerfed.

Over Innsmouth4 votes

So, I'm a Vladimir main. One of my favourite things about him gameplay-wise is that his heals have their own individual values, rather than being tied to how much damage he deals.

Part of the current problem with Lifesteal is the way it scales and multiplies with stats like crit and AS. If you crit, you heal for more. If you have high AS, you'll get more crits, which in turn continues to heal for more. Then you add Runaans on top of that, and you heal even more.

Yes, I know that Vlad's healing and an ADC's healing shouldn't be the same, since they're not the same class of Champion, but I do think that Vlad's healing (CD-based, heals have their own values rather than getting bigger if you deal more damage) is better design than how Lifesteal currently works. That's just my thoughts.

Something like 20% Lifesteal = 20% of your AD healed per hit, augmented appropriately on crits.

The Blue Rajah3 votes

That's literally the same thing as it is now though. Except stronger, since it's pre mitigation instead of post mitigation.

TeCoolMage3 votes

I think the right answer from a vlad main (But I'm not a Vlad main so who knows ;P) is:

Heals make me feel unique as not all mages have self healing

Why the hell do ADCs have an entire stat dedicated to having the same problem Rylai's had: Giving ADCs something that's not naturally in their kits thus reducing their variety and uniqueness.

Over Innsmouth4 votes

That's also one of my thoughts, yes. Spellvamp was intentionally undertuned because the idea of mages with healing was apparently too much, and then removed because it prevented proper balance of certain kits (Vladimir and Akali being the primary two).

But ADCs get several items dedicated to healing them and turning them into the best drain tanks in the game. I - as Vladimir - have to entirely outplay Jinx or Caitlyn or anyone else who abuses Runaans + BT in order to win a fight, while they can stand there clicking on me.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Yeah.. Must be terrible for fiddle, Vlad, Aatrox, Mundo and Swain mains out there, back when Rylai's abuse was mad it was Anivia vs the world when it came to having a niche other than wall + ER one shot because the stun was unreliable and slows were cheap.

I wonder how champions like Talon and Katarina have a place when all they have is damage these days :S.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

As far as I can see, Talon relies almost entirely on cheese. Katarina has some neat tools with how hyper mobile she can be, but that's a matter of mastery on the players part.

Losing Spellvamp isnt really a pain for the Champs you mentioned, it was only core on Vlad because he was in turn kept weak because he could buy it, and the others almost never got it. What is terrible for us is an 800g item that shuts down a significant part of our power budget.

Wukongz3 votes

Seems legit.

I guess games have now turned to "who gets to finish this before the adc hits 5 items"

invisiblecat13 votes

I wish lifesteal had a cap on healing every 5 seconds That way you can't just take warlords and a runaans and sustain through a 1v3 This way you need to buy some AD if you want the full healing effect

Papa Andrei2 votes

I just wish lifesteal was a kit mechanic not an item one

DeathBot6662 votes

However, she would have died there if anyone had the presence of mind to buy/use summoner 14 item 3165 item 3123, for the grievous wounds to counter her lifesteal.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Like I've said, marksmen can survive more damage than tanks. And it needs to be changed.

Veltox2 votes

Imo they should limit items that contain lifesteal at 1 for ranged champions. Adc mains usually complain about tankiness and healing yet draintanking for days unless they instaburst or chain cc you it's healthy.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Holy shit... she didn't even amove... what the fuck...

Matake1 votes

I'm more concerned with the range on that Leona ult. Like damn.

RavenMagus4 votes

My favorite part was how Leona just straight up got 2-shot in the middle of her E.

Bloodhawk951 votes

thats ridiculous but to be fair, ADC is an extremely weak role right now

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

thats ridiculous but to be fair, ADC is an extremely weak role right now

the only class that has ever been 100% mandatory, and it still holds true now. ADCs aren't weak.

Shadowmender1 votes

4 people didn't collapse on her. 1 person (tank) went in alone, eating all her abilities, going to half hp before flashing to try to do something. Then 2 people, 1 tank (who apparently wasn't that tanky) and a bruiser followed up, and cait nearly died because of chain cc. I'm not sure how she 1-shot leona, but now it's a 2v2, because she's got someone she flashed behind. And she swiftly finishes off the tree that tried so desperately to get on her...because it's a late game adc vs a tank....one who lost half their hp before even getting in there.

Then, one last person, an Ez tries desperately to follow the play, and chase down the cait, and gets collapsed on 4 or 5 people. Cait takes the honeyfruit, healing, and then the group just kills the resurrected Vi.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

blue team played this so bad. nothing to speak... Her sustain wasn't so insane in this, but we can discuss on the lv of the blue team

All Skillzz1 votes

leona had no defense. she took a 1088 damage headshot because she steped on a trap followed by a 882 crit right on her E engage. this gave caitlyn dangerous game heal. instantly after that moakai who lost most his hp before even enganging died to a focus by caitlyns team giving her another heal an she flashed to dodge ezreal R just in time for redemption to heal her and her team to kill off vi;s ga giving caitlyn some breathing room + thresh shielded her. then ezreal E into a caitlyn trap got headshooted giving her more hp from dangerous game and lifesteal off being low hp with warlords an a blood thirster.

All i seen was a full build lvl 18 carry vs a lvl 15 adc no fizz/assassin to jump on her two under lvled tanks who blew all cc with no damage to follow up and a vi with no ult engage on an adc who got peels and shields+heals from her team. its not like she 1 vs 5 pentakilled them lol.

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