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Sooo... are "simple" kits for new champions not an option anymore?

Macilento··59 votes·4,429 views

I don't know, i stated this many times but since Azir came out it seems like every New champion has to have some Strange/complicated/hard to udnerstand kit. Not saying that that's a problem for me.... but... Why?

I don't get it. Riot itself said they wanted to return to less complicated champions, and Gypsylord himself said that Jhin is kinda middle ground of complexity. Then i saw Jhin kit. That IS NOT middle ground of complexity. Just look how long his passive is. Not only is really clunky to understand but it takes half screen. And anyway he is a complicated champion too after all.

What i'm trying to say is that new players that try this stuff feel disoriented. While all of these champs feel very unique and powerful, you have to spend quite a bit of time before learning to play them just decently. New players do not want that always.

And even i, who play this game since 2012 got kinda bored of having every champoion to be like a damn EINSTEIN PROJECT. ** Bare in mind this always riot: Compliated kits =/= fun to play Simple kits =/= noob champion**

For example Cho Gath has a very simple kit, but he is fun as shit to play Garen is considered a noob champ? Whatever, but killing people with that Big Ass Sword coming from the sky screaming DEMACIA, IS FUN.

Every champion since Azir got some strange stuff just to be "diverse" at the sake of playability for new players.

95 Comments

Salron43 votes

Jhin's passive is incredibly simple but is worded poorly

DrCyanide16 votes

Agreed fully!

Crit Chance becomes AD Attack Speed becomes AD Every fourth auto does more damage, but you reload afterwards Crits (from your 4th auto) give you movement speed

As for the other abilities:

Q: Projectile that bounces target to target, just like Sivir's Ricochet W: Minion piercing skillshot. If it hits a champion that's already been attacked by a champion on your team, it roots them and gives Jhin a movement speed boost E: Slow acting Teemo Mushroom R: 4 long range linear skillshots that stop on hitting a champion. Like the passive, the 4th does more damage and crits.

That's not too bad, not by a longshot.

ProfDrDeath3 votes

I'd liken the Q more to Katarina's Bouncing Blade, but spot-on otherwise.

The only real complicated ability he has is his passive, and that is mainly because it explains how he has a different approach to auto-attacking compared to other champions.

Lovely Pants4 votes

His trap is probably the deepest part of Jhin's kit in terms of mastery. It interests me because it doesn't seem like an enemy ever need take the damage from it unless they're rooted to the spot. It forces them to commit to a direction to escape as soon as they step on it. Depending on how many you can lay down and how significant the punishment is, though, it seems you could easily encourage them into a specific direction with some planning.

Everything else is fairly straightforward burst and poke management. Even more streamlined than most champions, perhaps, since every offensive thing you can build on him looks like it channels into about the same effect.

DrCyanide2 votes

I suspect a frequent ambush combo for Jhin will be set up a ward+slow trap on one side of a wall/bush, and when the enemy triggers it auto them once then follow up with your root. They'll then take the damage from the trap, and while they're rooted may as well unload more damage on them, either with autos or with your ultimate.

MrBuffington17 votes

{quoted}

That's not too bad, not by a longshot.

(☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞

Gigahappytown1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5TqnAg9,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-13T14:03:43.938+0000)

Jhin's passive is incredibly simple but is worded poorly

his kit is really simple and straight foward

but riot spilled their spaghetti all over the descriptions

TotalJerk21 votes

All of his passive is basically "build the same shit you would on any other marksman, but the end stats are different"

Surfer Ashe11 votes

Kindred pretty simple, despite the wording.

Bard isn't complicated in game-play - definitely no more than Ahri.

If anything, it's just been word creep.

Let's face it - Annie is simple and called a noob champ. Kat is simple and called a noob champ. Yi is simple and called a noob champ Warwick is simple and so forth

Simple kits just get your champion undermined. Simple champs also tend to be stack-checkers.

Macilento6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Surfer Ashe,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5TqnAg9,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-01-13T14:31:58.167+0000)

Kindred pretty simple, despite the wording.

Bard isn't complicated in game-play - definitely no more than Ahri.

If anything, it's just been word creep.

Bard is FAR more complciated then Ahri.

Knwoing when to leave lane, when to collect meeps, when to leave shrines and WEHRE, using your ulti decently.

Tons of stuff going on there

TotalJerk3 votes

I'd argue that Jhin is simpler because you generally don't need to understand his passive as it basically just means "Zeal items work differently, but they're still good".

Macilento2 votes

{quoted}

I'd argue that Jhin is simpler because you generally don't need to understand his passive as it basically just means "Zeal items work differently, but they're still good".

Try to explain his passive to a veyr new player. they will understand nothing of it trust me

DorkunedAuras14 votes

Explain anything to a new player and they will understand nothing.

DrCyanide4 votes

OK.

Attack Damage, Attack Speed, and Critical Strike Chance all increase the damage you do.

Every four auto attacks you'll need to reload. That last auto attack deals a lot more damage than the first three, so try and use it on the enemy champion if you can. You'll run faster after your fourth attack, letting you get away while you reload.

The first part is simpler than it is for any other marksman in the game, since the abilities for other marksmen don't scale with crit or attack speed.

You also don't need to explain concepts crit and when to build it, since the player will have 0% crit chance on their first 3 autos and 100% on their fourth.

Running away while reloading is something that's fairly common in other types of games, and I doubt it would confuse a noob.

I agree, the wording they have on the reveal page is messy and takes a while to understand, but when you explain it like you would to a new player it makes complete sense.

3ofGot40ve1 votes

knowing when to drop a shrine and where

lol how in the hell is this difficult.

No More Cages1 votes

To sum it up simply, too many people cluster them by tower (get pushed too far and the enemy will walk over all of them and remove them) and lose more value in MP and potential sustain than the HP the enemy laner loses (especially tank supports) or so far back that the walk to take them would be better spent backing for items on top of healing, and often just spam them on CD whenever one is missing, which is a good way to burn Bard's MP away. His MP Regen in the very early game is alright, but his shrines' early cost is overwhelming if you don't, as was said, 'know when and where to drop them'.

Then again...this is just the personal experience and musing of an Unranked derp, and likely doesn't reflect anything beyond unranked! It's overall 'the tip of the iceberg,' but suffice to say the shrines are easier to mess up than one would think. I'm no pro player, noteworthy player, or anything of the sort - just your average joe who really likes that meep-toting balloon.

(Huh. I just realized that it automatically upvotes your own post when you make one...that's...an odd feature.)

3ofGot40ve1 votes

(Huh. I just realized that it automatically upvotes your own post when you make one...that's...an odd feature.)

I found this amusing :P. Not in a rude way, just funny xD

No More Cages1 votes

It's...odd. I don't really know what real use it would have. O_o

3ofGot40ve2 votes

Considering most people agree with their own opinions, it should be an auto Upvote.

No More Cages1 votes

That...is a functional way to look at it, touche. I'm going to go back to mourning Team Builder while the new queue is busted, wanna sob grossly like a disgruntled widow with me?

fractalfantasies5 votes

Bard's kit is fairly simple, but the decision making is difficult.

That's not the same as overloaded/complex kit.

Krigjer6 votes

Riot has said that the problem they have with (old) Fiora, Yi, Xin Zhao, etc, is that it's a battle of numbers. You hit your skills in the right order and whoever has the bigger number wins; no skill.

They want to move away from that type of design.

Troy2426211 votes

{quoted}

Riot has said that the problem they have with (old) Fiora, Yi, Xin Zhao, etc, is that it's a battle of numbers. You hit your skills in the right order and whoever has the bigger number wins; no skill.

They want to move away from that type of design.

I honestly don't think stat check champions are that bad in terms of design. There are bigger battles to fight, such as almost embarrassing levels of mobility and power creep.

Lovely Pants6 votes

Jhin's kit I think is ridiculously arcane to decipher on paper, but will be quite simple to put together in game.

4-hit auto attack effect with an execute, 4-hit canister. His optimal wave-clear and poke play in lane seems incredibly easy to put together and predict.

Ariel the Cruel16 votes

4-hit AA. 4-hit grenade. 4-hit ult. Mini Teemo shroom. 2-hit root.

People were complaining about the 3-hit effects becoming common. Problem solved. Rito troll OP.

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

Jhin is 4 letters

Veraska4 votes

I personally, like the more complicated kits, champs like garen and warwick drive me crazy.

And besides, everyone is saying that the new guy jhin's kit is just a bunch of clone parts, could you imagine if his kit was even simpler? Champions need stuff to differentiate themselves from the pack and riots trying to get away from pure stat stuff (changing gp's E which was a stat buff, to the barrel mechanic is a great example)

I think riot shouldn't go backwards on this, I think most of the champs that would be consider easy or simple are just outdated, annie will probably be bumped up a bit in the mage update and its only a matter if time before warwick gets his (and he needs it. Bad.)

You do have a point about new players, I have a friend whose newer (lvl 15) and was really excited to play kindred even tho she barely knew what jungling was, I think kindred is a more severe case tho

Would you consider jinx simple? I see a lot of newer players gravitate and stick to her.

Macilento2 votes

{quoted}

I personally, like the more complicated kits, champs like garen and warwick drive me crazy.

And besides, everyone is saying that the new guy jhin's kit is just a bunch of clone parts, could you imagine if his kit was even simpler? Champions need stuff to differentiate themselves from the pack and riots trying to get away from pure stat stuff (changing gp's E which was a stat buff, to the barrel mechanic is a great example)

I think riot shouldn't go backwards on this, I think most of the champs that would be consider easy or simple are just outdated, annie will probably be bumped up a bit in the mage update and its only a matter if time before warwick gets his (and he needs it. Bad.)

You do have a point about new players, I have a friend whose newer (lvl 15) and was really excited to play kindred even tho she barely knew what jungling was, I think kindred is a more severe case tho

Would you consider jinx simple? I see a lot of newer players gravitate and stick to her.

I feel like you on these champions do not misunderstand. For example i really like Bard, wich is not super easy for sure to use.

What i was questioning is "why every champ is now like that" instead of mixing it up a bit. I have a friend for example that sometimes just says "i like Azir but i dont have the time/will to stay there 400 hours to learn this champ". It's true that there are many champs, but still it's bad to hear that.

I am Pacman1 votes

{quoted}

I personally, like the more complicated kits, champs like garen and warwick drive me crazy.

And besides, everyone is saying that the new guy jhin's kit is just a bunch of clone parts, could you imagine if his kit was even simpler? Champions need stuff to differentiate themselves from the pack and riots trying to get away from pure stat stuff (changing gp's E which was a stat buff, to the barrel mechanic is a great example)

I think riot shouldn't go backwards on this, I think most of the champs that would be consider easy or simple are just outdated, annie will probably be bumped up a bit in the mage update and its only a matter if time before warwick gets his (and he needs it. Bad.)

You do have a point about new players, I have a friend whose newer (lvl 15) and was really excited to play kindred even tho she barely knew what jungling was, I think kindred is a more severe case tho

Would you consider jinx simple? I see a lot of newer players gravitate and stick to her.

Just gonna add on to that point you made about champs differentiating and having similar abilities.

Riot recently said (cant find it at the moment, it was in one of the forum questionings), that champs can have similar abilities or even almost copies as long as they don't play the same. They said when lux was released the community was like "gg rito nice clone of morgana; skillshot bind, aoe dmg, and shield". Obviously lux plays nothing like morg, hell look at their objectives in teamfights. lux kites and stays back while morg goes in hard to stun everyone.

Also i introduced a couple of people to league as well and when they found jinx they both stuck to her as well.

Malicious Metal3 votes

I like simple, straight forward champions that value strategy more than sheer numbers and fancy skills.

Sire Hippington3 votes

The point of Jhin is that while his kit looks a bit comblicated on paper, it is rather simple in the execution. I think Gypsylord is right in that he is more in the middle ground of overall complexity.

The Deckowner2 votes

rito love mini games

Silents4292 votes

Simple kits are bad for the game and surprise most champions with long histories of being balance nightmares were with simple kits. I don't think any champion with a simple kit hasn't had a time of being broke.

They can't be balanced.

And reaaally? Just sit down and read the damn descriptions, it might have been poorly worded but it's far from being complicated.

Bard R Friday2 votes

Jhin cannot increase his attack speed or crit chance, and gains attack damage when those stats increase. Jhin can attack four times and then cannot attack for a short time. The fourth attack deals increased damage based on how low the target's health is and increases his movement speed.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Many of the most historically complained about champions have simple kits Annie Warwick Fizz Katarina Darius Nasus

Can't have it both ways

TheDevice2 votes

Wow I never knew tahm kench was super hard to use, or Illaoi.

I mean it doesn't matter how many simple-to-use champions riot comes out with, people are going to flip their lids whenever they see something out-of-the-ordinary. Jhin might be a little complex. Why is that so bad?

And its the players opinion as to what equals "fun".

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

Illaoi is pretty simple. Nothing weird going down there but she is mostly just a numbers checker.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

All juggernauts a number-checkers. They're job (as a role) is to simply out-stat everyone.

Tyaldan1 votes

Idk about that, most juggernauts have outplay potential, but its limited in scope to a few champs. Champs like fiora or gnar will wreck a champ like darius, but darius can outplay a lot of other top laners, quite easily. He punishes mistakes, which i would say is a theme common to juggernauts, not simply out stating everyone. If you have less than 5% health dont go in near darius, thats just begging for him to penta dunk your team. he starts with you then 5 hit dunks everyone else. Dont go near garen when you are the villain and low, its just a free kill. run from illaoi when she ults, she has invincible tentacles. Etc Etc.

Weathered1 votes

I just want a champion with a skill ceiling higher than yasuo and lee. Really want to get a champion that I can strive as.

Macilento2 votes

{quoted}

I just want a champion with a skill ceiling higher than yasuo and lee. Really want to get a champion that I can strive as.

Azir is up there in my opinion

Jorencice3 votes

Yea azir or ekko. I'd recomend ekko. His outplay potential is through the roof.

High51 votes

There are plenty of faceroll champions ... you're complaining about good game design? /sad

Macilento1 votes

{quoted}

There are plenty of faceroll champions ... you're complaining about good game design? /sad

Not at all. I like these champions, i just don't get why we dont get "simpler" kits oveall with some champions. YOu consider Braum a faceroll champ? kek

SithesisLord1 votes

Complicated champions/kits =/= Good game design.

Finding a balance between complicated and simple is good game design.

Balance in all things is good game design.

Extremes, either one of them, is bad game design.

Champions that are too simple are a terror to be balanced, because even a slight change to anything can gut them and turn them unviable.

The same happens to complicated, a.k.a. Feast or Famine champions. LeeSin Yasuo Riven .

As mentioned before, Syndra and Orianna seem to be somewhat of the culprit of good game design. The kit is complicated if the abilites are seen and analyzed individually, but in unison, they are very simple.

elon wątroba1 votes

complicated =/= feast or famine ie.Talon Rengar Katarina

Niaphim1 votes

Anyone else finds it strange when Riot makes such complex champions that take time and effort to learn to play as and against but still refuses to give us 5 bans per team because "it will increase time needed for new players to start rankeds"?

KoKoboto1 votes

Really I feel most of the champions have been pretty simple The only champions that I don't understand at all are Irelia and Olaf

Macilento1 votes

{quoted}

Really I feel most of the champions have been pretty simple The only champions that I don't understand at all are Irelia and Olaf

What i mean is that some champions have tons of depths and are well thought even with simple kits.

Orianna, Syndra, Braum all have pretty simple kits, but using them at the highest level is hard.

THat's what i mean

Sirsir1 votes

Jhin passive really isn't that complicated if you don't delve into the ratios too much. Basically his passive converts alternative damage stats into AD.

And the rest of his kit isn't... that complex. I mean its no Warwick. Unlike most builds these days Jhins locked attack speed means he stays walk-kiting focused throughout the game. He actually seems a lot like a combo mage.

Q: Bounces and gets stronger if it kills. W: Long range poke with a snare if someone hit him earlier (RFC FTW ROFLMAO) E: Invisible trap with a delay but a ton of damage. R: Cait and Xerath had a baby

I mean he does have some pretty cool combos. I can't wait to delete someone by snaring them in a few Es >:D

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