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Take a look at the TSM vs C9 match today

PuDDG26FP9··21 votes·2,772 views

It really shows how bad Elise currently is. I'm not gonna discredit TSM, they played so well, out rotated C9 and I was happy that they won.

But if you look back at the match, C9 had 3 dragons and a BARON at one point, where TSM had ZERO dragon until they were 30 minutes into the game. Even with 3 stacks of dragon and Baron against a 0 dragon TSM, C9 still couldn't do anything, they couldn't even win a straight-on teamfight against TSM. Sure C9 made mistakes but TSM didn't play perfectly either. So what's the reason behind this then?

I've had my eyes on Meteos the whole game, who I consider a really smart jungler, but sadly he had literrally 0 impact on this game. It's not his fault that he played bad, he did what he could, as an Elise.

This is what happens to him through out the game in a fight: Throws stun, goes in, gets chunked to 1/4 health in half a second, hangs herself, comes down, dies/ran away.

There's a reason people calls her a stunbot, because that's all she's capable of after the 20 minutes mark. I'm sure Riot is aware of this and is working on it to make her more in line with other junglers. So why do I write this post then? Because I want Riot to know that they need to push out the fix faster than they are doing now. For there are people who likes her, wants to play her with the new Blood Moon skin but can not bare the suckyness (is that even a word?) of the spider lady right now. A minor clear buff is not gonna fix the problem, she needs something more useful against the enemy team other than a stun.

24 Comments

CoolKnightST16 votes

It didn't had anything todo with Meteo's or the champion Elise. Balls was never able to land a good ult with Gnar. TSM just always made sure the didn't fight nearby walls. Their was litterly nothing C9 could do against that. That's why the casters kept repeating they should have picked JarvanIV in that composition. Not because she was that bad but because JarvanIV would have been a factor that solved 2 of their problems namely lack on damage & the ability to create a wall for Gnar.

This is probaly one the worst games to give as example that Elise is UP. It's was the composition and not the champion that determed the losing factor. Elise is a champion that you use in pick comps with something like a Syndra Corki.

Spookzie3 votes

What thus guy said. TSM kept baiting fights mid lane so gnars ult was never fully used. And from what i remember C9 had the upper hand early game.

MrRado8 votes

I honestly have no idea why anyone plays Elise competitively in her current state.

DanLikesBacon5 votes

Stop using the word literally wrong. I highly doubt that meteos had "literally" no impact.

Abyssphere4 votes

I honestly don't know why he even played her. Probably the last time he will.

Yfrappefort1 votes

{quoted}

I honestly don't know why he even played her. Probably the last time he will.

I really hope so. It's time he see how bad she is, even if she used to be one of his favorite jungler.

meatjunjun2 votes

Jungling in it's current state is ridiculous f'd up. Only a few jungle champs are viable now and because of the slow clears, most jungles gain less exp than the FKN SUPPORTS.

For jungling, once you hit lvl 4, you need to start ganking and hope it suceeds. Otherwise, you'll fall behind in level and will be a non-factor the whole game.

Elise is defininitely not viable right now. I wish Riot would buff her back to (or close to) her state when she was insta-banned. I'm sure with that strength, she still wouldn't be banned as much as RekSai right now.

What Is Smite1 votes

The jungle is not fucked up right now, if anything it's perfectly fine the way it is right now just buff some of the junglers who are struggling or try some new rune combinations to make the unviable junglers viable again. Elise can still do anything the other junglers can but her build path has changed up from what it use to be. On the Current Elise you want to go Magus Chilling smite/Sorc Shoes/Guise/Randuin's/Visage or Banshee's/Filler Item. Elise is really reliant on M-pen to do the bulk of her damage so after magus is done you want to rush the haunting guise and sorc shoes then work on randuin's for tankyness, build haunting guise into liandry's only after finishing your MR item, then proceed to your last item.

meatjunjun1 votes

It's not so much the build paths that make her bad, it's just her overall stats. Same like most other junglers now, there's only a few truly viable ones. It's so easy for the jungler to fall behind in levels where you better succeed in killing the enemy champ during a gank, otherwise you'll be lower level than the support the whole game.

Listen to the casters in the LCS, they constantly say Elise can't keep up with the meta anymore. She only has a good first clear, but after that, she just turns into a tank that tickles her opponents or can get 1 stun off and wait to die. Her only value to her team mid/late game is if she stuns the enemy damage dealer.

What Is Smite1 votes

Well I don't think that junglers in the current iteration of the jungle are behind in experience and levels. In the majority of the games I do jungle I am always ahead of my bottom lane by 1 level even if I have been stuck in the jungle farming. I know that LCS teams have their own way of doing things but maybe it has come to the point where the current top-tier jungle mains are confused with what to do with this new jungle that Riot has implemented. It's not a given that if a person plays in the LCS they will automatically understand everything new that comes out for their role, they are like any other person and need time to understand how they can make it so that they do not fall behind in the jungle. As any subject comes to human mind it takes time and effort to reach a near perfect state and even a substantial amount of time and effort to truly achieve what their original goal was.

In the case of Elise she might need more tuning to make her better off without bringing her into a dominant lane pick. I think that, and this is only an opinion, that they should increase her AP ratio's slightly so that she is not so much reliant on M-pen items or if they decide that she should go the tank route then they might want to increase her spider form's resistances while giving a slight damage increase to her execute by about 20 flat damage. If 20 flat damage is to overbearing then maybe reduce the execute %health damage to 6% instead of 8% of missing health. These are just my opinion's, other's may have their and to them their own.

Nucleophilic atk1 votes

"buff her back to her state when she was insta-banned"

wat

meatjunjun1 votes

Buff her to early/mid season 4 when she was a top-tier pick and could stand toe-to-toe with Lee Sin.

Ryvaku1 votes

This is why I honestly don't think some junglers are actually good ones as I only use a few. Let alone some champs that barely impact fights the way you need it too.

PentaJump1 votes

Part of me wants to say he is much better at the game than I am, and therefore understands which champions are viable more than I do. But I just don't see that pick working.

Superdum1 votes

I wouldn't say Elise was bad at that match, I would say c9's comp was pretty bad.

Renegade Angel951 votes

Elise is skilled in catching people out and getting picks off positioning errors. If you're where you shouldn't be, Elise will find you.

What they should have done is have Fizz and Elise ward deep and make moves to catch Jinx or Ahri out. Or Irelia even since Dyrus was under farmed. Santorin (or however it's spelled) also isn't much of a warder. So it'd be easy to place those wards and everyone on TSM could easily be caught out if you put the time and resources to do so. Honestly the Gnar pick is what screwed them. Balls was way too scared to hop onto a team mate to jump in. All you do is send a player in and then have Gnar jump on them into the back line.

Gnar is a team fighter, which is fine but they didn't use Elise or Fizz to their full potential. They tried time and time again to team fight with Gnar against Janna of all champions. Elise isn't a terrible champion, she was just played poorly in that game.

ZeroAnarchy1 votes

The major problem they lost was because of Hai. He was completely shut down, and had almost 0 impact tons of fishes were missed and had to wait out on the sidelines alot to wait for his e to come back up. TSM fought away from walls which completely butchered Gnar. If they had picked Jarvan instead of Elise, that would've been dealt with because it wouldn't matter if they weren't near walls, Jarvan makes them with his ulti. They really could've had better picks than they had. Elise can work in certain comps but not this one.

The Loveless1 votes

She was shyt on release until Liandry's came out. What do you expect when she builds tank after her recent nerfs? She's designed to build ap and whittle enemies down via poke before going in for the fatality. You wanna do something with Elise, build damage. She has the ratios to support that.

Sinlaire1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IzJKLlya,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-01-25T21:01:01.098+0000)

She was shyt on release until Liandry's came out. What do you expect when she builds tank after her recent nerfs? She's designed to build ap and whittle enemies down via poke before going in for the fatality. You wanna do something with Elise, build damage. She has the ratios to support that.

no, she doesnt. Q is +3% current hp/hp missing per 100 Ap. W is 80% on the spiderling but only 5% on her skitter for her spiderling sustain. E has 0% AP bonus and ULt is 10% and 20% Ap bonus on damage in the two forms. AP practically only marginally effects her with only real effects shown on the W unless built in total excess like a burst mage.

that's why everyone builds her tanky. her damage only twitches marginally so they're better building defence and Pen over AP since it boosts damage just as effectively to get a Liandrys as it does a Zhonya's or Rabas.

The Loveless1 votes

Her spider ratios WORK considering her and her babies get 120% attack speed (I believe). That's a lot of attacks coming at you and a lot of healing. Are you afraid to build ap? I know what I'm talking about here. She is capable of dps.

Sinlaire1 votes

Did i ever say she couldn't do damage? and at exactly what point in my listing the ap ratios of literally all her skills did you decide just one of her skills in one of her forms were sufficient to make an arguement that building mass AP on her was totally viable.

and on a side note for your defences. can you tell me the HP and resists of a spiderling for say a lvl 15 Elise? because unless in fights upwards but never exceeding 3 enemies and god forbid 5, her spiderlings have the life expectancy of less than that of a Lieutenant during the Vietnam war. Which was 14 seconds by the way.

By level 18 i've seen her spiderings going down in as little as 1 and two hits from AoE attacks from mages and APCs if she's starved and a whopping 2-3 if she's doing well. skittering spiderlings arent worth anything if they arent actively attacking and most importantly DEAD. yes. her attack speed and health regen generate massive gains during a high AP build, but it essentially makes her a creep wave and jungler farming monster due to the low survive ability of the spiderlings.

and that's not even including the fact that Elise has literally no real reliable escape since Repel is just a hang unless she can use it to drop on the edge of her range, but that requires work and sometimes luck to be able to position to a place you can use it effectively before dying.

a non-tanky elise lacks the capacity to effectively die without risking getting blown up by an enemy team because she doesnt have a 3 skill burst like Vi and has a less reliable escape. Her rotation is slower and takes longer and her team fight utility literally consists of "land cacoon and wait for them to split up enough that she can dive and burst someone without risking getting focused."

it's not a team fight centric character and lacking tanky items she has hardly even a shadow of team fight oriented play. AP Elise is like Veigar without his stun cage. he blows up exactly one person and lets the team do the rest, but she cant even do that as quickly or effectively becasue he can stun a team and she can stun, 1. she's effective for 1 in 5 enemies and she's done. Hence Tank Elise.

The Loveless1 votes

Good lord man, do you know how to strategize? You dont all-in full health enemies in 5v5s. Your w and q are for poking. Spider form is for finishing, in case the "execution" style spider bite wasn't a big enough hint.

I'm speaking from RECENT experience. W nukes groups of enemies, and in combination with the rest of your team's poke, Elise is quite deadly. I didn't read anything past your first paragraph because I know I've had success with AP Elise.

Dunno what problems you see with her kit but maybe you're just too scared to go glass.

Xela Syab1 votes

It's not that Elise is bad, its that TSM had a heavy push team with Jinx and Rek. Jinx has been crazy this season due to her huge attackspeed buff on q which allows her to take towers more. Plus if you listened to the postgame, Drag doesn't give exp or gold which causes a bad tradeoff, because you're focusing on value for objectives over objectives that can provide gear and levels.

Durzaka1 votes

I was fucking tired of seeing Meteos do mediocre on Elise last split, and now he is STILL playing her this split, despite how awful she is.

He is such a good jungler, i wish he would pick champions that would let him show it.

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