Except for one item, and it NEVER gets built. (Zeke's)
What's the deal with this? Who decided and then carved it in stone that all supports have to be AP? It's just so boring ._.
Closest thing we have is Thresh, but even then, no AP scaling, just auto attack enhancers, actually... Do any supports have ANY AD scaling? Gangplank? ... euuurrrhhh... no.
Someone care to elaborate for me?
usul12024 votesShielding, healing, slowing, ranged stuns and the like are all just kinda magical abilities. When rito makes a champion who heals their friend by doing damage, or stuns enemies long range with a 39 and a half foot pole (i'm looking at you, Grinch) then they will make one. As of now, there aren't any supports that could make proper use of it, and no current viable champion concepts that I've seen or heard of.
mirAcIe1 votesShielding, healing, slowing, ranged stuns and the like are all just kinda magical abilities. When rito makes a champion who heals their friend by doing damage, or stuns enemies long range with a 39 and a half foot pole (i'm looking at you, Grinch) then they will make one. As of now, there aren't any supports that could make proper use of it, and no current viable champion concepts that I've seen or heard of.
usul12021 votesNami's heal has 2 separate parts, a heal and a damage component, and is a spell, not direct damage dealing such that would scale off of AD. The item has a long cooldown and again, does not scale off of AD.
mirAcIe1 votesNami's heal has 2 separate parts, a heal and a damage component, and is a spell, not direct damage dealing such that would scale off of AD. The item has a long cooldown and again, does not scale off of AD.
I never said those things scale with AD. But they are offensive/defensive by default. Nami can heal someone and deal damage with 1 single cast (if the conditions are right). I don't see why can't there be AD-type supports. Of course it should be balanced, but it can work.
usul12021 votesBecause it is attack damage. AD is a damage scaling stat. ability power scales up your abilities, which include heals and all of the above stated. having a damage stat increase the power of a heal is counter intuitive and quite frankly, very possibly overpowered. the ability to do damage and heal is Sona URF. no one wants that in normal SR.
mirAcIe1 votesBecause it is attack damage. AD is a damage scaling stat. ability power scales up your abilities, which include heals and all of the above stated. having a damage stat increase the power of a heal is counter intuitive and quite frankly, very possibly overpowered. the ability to do damage and heal is Sona URF. no one wants that in normal SR.
We're not talking Riven-type champion, but I think there are ways to make it work. Everything can be balanced by number tweaking.
usul12021 votesThe issue isn't numbers balance, it the fact that something that does healing would scale off of a damage source stat.
ZephyrDrake3 voteswhy are all mages AP? why can't we have an AD mage?
Scrimshäw4 votesDarius and Garen both use spells about 90% more often than auto attacks.
ZephyrDrake1 votes[{quoted}](name=Treasure Goblin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IyvtvTBk,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-04-08T23:51:48.357+0000)
Darius and Garen both use spells about 90% more often than auto attacks.
what does that have to do with anything? or are you saying they are mages? guess what they are not
Scrimshäw4 votesthey are AD casters, so in the MOBA definition, they are a "mage"
they're not wizards, but they cast spells
ZephyrDrake1 votes[{quoted}](name=Treasure Goblin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IyvtvTBk,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-09T00:22:15.361+0000)
they are AD casters, so in the MOBA definition, they are a "mage"
they're not wizards, but they cast spells
"spells" keep telling yourself that Bruisers are AD casters
insaiyanbacca2 votesummm garen idk if he is an actual ad caster(tho ap garen was a thing rip DFGaren) but darius is indeed considered an AD caster also panth is an AD caster
cJ769LJqXU2 voteswho... cares... o.o
cJ769LJqXU2 voteswho... cares... o.o
cJ769LJqXU2 voteswho... cares... o.o
Sightless664 votesA general mage gameplay pattern is extremely ability reliant and has period of uptime and downtime. You can load a lot into their abilities because they have literally nothing without them. An AD mage doesn't have this weakness, because they always have autoattacks to fall back on/
Think about what an AD mage would be. If it's ranged, it's going to be an AD carry, because he'll have ranged autoattacks. Those give a lot of sustained damage potential, so there is a limit to how much utility you can put on the abilities. For a melee AD mage, you still have strong autoattacks, so you kind of have to have a mechanic that enables them to use it. They end up as either melee carries or assassins. You can afford some more utility on melees who end up being tankier, and those end up as bruisers. You can have ability reliant AD champions, but they aren't going to play like mages or supports.
How exactly do you see an AD mage working? What kind of kit are you thinking of that avoids these problems?
ZephyrDrake2 votesA general mage gameplay pattern is extremely ability reliant and has period of uptime and downtime. You can load a lot into their abilities because they have literally nothing without them. An AD mage doesn't have this weakness, because they always have autoattacks to fall back on/
Think about what an AD mage would be. If it's ranged, it's going to be an AD carry, because he'll have ranged autoattacks. Those give a lot of sustained damage potential, so there is a limit to how much utility you can put on the abilities. For a melee AD mage, you still have strong autoattacks, so you kind of have to have a mechanic that enables them to use it. They end up as either melee carries or assassins. You can afford some more utility on melees who end up being tankier, and those end up as bruisers. You can have ability reliant AD champions, but they aren't going to play like mages or supports.
How exactly do you see an AD mage working? What kind of kit are you thinking of that avoids these problems?
you misunderstood the entire meaning of that comment...
Sightless662 votesSo, what was your meaning? I saw you asking all mages are AP. I said it's because mage design doesn't work for AD champions. Was it meant to be a sarcastic response, or a comparison to something else that doesn't exist in the game? If I misunderstood the question, my bad.
ZephyrDrake1 votesSo, what was your meaning? I saw you asking all mages are AP. I said it's because mage design doesn't work for AD champions. Was it meant to be a sarcastic response, or a comparison to something else that doesn't exist in the game? If I misunderstood the question, my bad.
it's a sarcastic response to what the OP was asking, since the same reasons why there aren't any AD mages can be applied to supports
CrazedPorcupine1 votesOh some sort of passive that either A) Reduces their attack speeds noticeably as they build AD or B) a passive that means that Auto attacks deal 50+3*level Magic damage instead of dealing damage based on their AD. Both of these passives mean that the champion can still scale with AD, but not have the issue of being a fighter/AD assassin/Marksman And truly into an AD Caster.
ZephyrDrake2 votesOh some sort of passive that either A) Reduces their attack speeds noticeably as they build AD or B) a passive that means that Auto attacks deal 50+3*level Magic damage instead of dealing damage based on their AD. Both of these passives mean that the champion can still scale with AD, but not have the issue of being a fighter/AD assassin/Marksman And truly into an AD Caster.
i would rather have no AD support champion than have a support champion whose passive is designed to work against him and be more of a hindrance than actually useful. You shouldn't have an entire part of your kit literally punish you if you build the way you are supposed to build said champion
Sightless661 votesI don't like that design. I don't see why we should have an AD champion and give them direct kit limitations to prevent them from autoattacking. What's the point? Why not just make it an AP champion if you don't want it to autoattack?
CrazedPorcupine1 votesthis is more to allow AD Casters to really thrive and be strong through high AD scalings, and not have to be limited simply because their autos are as strong as their spells.
This is why we haven't seen proper AD casters, because Riot has had to take into account their Auto attacks. But if their auto attacks were either weakened or limited severely (Why I like the reduced AS as you get more AD) They can have very strong powerful physical damage abilities that scale with 1.5 Bonus AD, 2.0 Bonus AD, 1.8 Total AD and other incredibly high AD ratios rather than being limited because as they build more AD, they get more powerful autos, and so why build pure AD, when one can build some AS into the mix and become a semi marksman.
Sightless661 votesThat still raises the question of what value there is in having an AD caster that can't autoattack. What differentiates this character from a mage? Normally, having AD itemization differentiates characters by allowing them to autoattack. If we want a character with strong spells who doesn't autoattack, what advantage is gained by not making them AP? What can you do with this kind of champion that can't be done in exactly the same way with an AP champion? I don't see any actual unique character design that becomes possible because of this.
CrazedPorcupine1 votesThe ability for their spells to actually critically strike based on their crit chance? Riot could think of something to do with a pure AD mage. The only thing that's been limiting them is that they can't make an AD caster without worrying about them becoming simply another fighter that only builds 1 or 2 AD items then builds pure tank.
Sightless662 votesThe ability for their spells to actually critically strike based on their crit chance?
This has already been done with a few champions. Garen's E, Gangplank's Q, Yi's Q, Yasuo's Q. There's nothing preventing it from being done more. If you wanted an AD champion that could crit on every spell, that could be done right now. Heck, you could do it with an AP champion if you really wanted. I'm not sure there is any value in a champion that can crit on every spell, because it just adds a different multiplier to spells without really changing gameplay, but that's secondary.
The only thing that's been limiting them is that they can't make an AD caster without worrying about them becoming simply another fighter that only builds 1 or 2 AD items then builds pure tank.
Sure they can. They've made assassins who primarily build CDR, armor penetration and AD, with minimal or no attack speed. I don't think they're worried about this kind of stuff either. I don't think they see any value in making an AD champion that can't autoattack (I know at least one Rioter a year or so ago expressed this exact opinion). Why bother? The unique value of AD as a main stat is that it gives a boost to autoattacking. If you want scaling that doesn't give any benefit to autoattacks, you have AP.
I see no ideas that require an AD champion that can't autoattack. I see nothing unique that is possible.
CrazedPorcupine1 votesOh they have abilites that can "Crit" but those are usually tied as AA modifiers and can apply all other effects. I'm talking more along the lines of Alpha Strike Crit.
The other thing is that Zed Builds AS in the form of BotRK. Yasuo builds lots of AS to go along with his high crit chance so he can do massive DPS.
The problem is, You give a champ with high AD Scaling abilities, Utility and no downside to his autos, and guess what you have? You have Vi, You have Lee Sin, You have RENEKTON, You have Gnar. Champs who abuse their high AD ratios to build a single AD item to capitalize on their AD ratios, then build pure tank so they can fight.
If you give an AD caster Ranged Autos along with good scaling abilities, you have an OP marksman who will just build AD/AS and Crit, and be an unstoppable monster because their abilities as well as their attacks will be absolutely bonkers.
The thing is, If you WANT an AD Caster, You need a way to make it so their Autos aren't as useful as a fighter or marksman.
That's why AP casters work. They don't have strong autos to fall back on when their spells are on Cooldown.
That's why AD "Casters" end up as fighters or assassins. Their utility and scaling is good enough that they only need a single AD item to do damage, and can build tank so they can keep doing damage with their autos and abilities. OR they end up being a Marksman with strong AD scaling abilities.
Sightless661 votesI'm talking more along the lines of Alpha Strike Crit.
Already possible. We could make this kind of champion. I don't see a point if there isn't autoattacking involved though. On such a kit, crit is just another type of force multiplier. It gives different value from other AD-enhancing stats like armor penetration by enhancing a different source of damage. If crit affected all abilities, it just becomes a question of whether armor penetration or crit gives more damage at X AD and Y enemy armor.
The other thing is that Zed Builds AS in the form of BotRK.
Talon, Kha'zix and Riven don't. Strong abilities, autoattacks are used, attack speed is not prioritized or even built. Zed would be very reluctant to build it if he couldn't use it for his ult damage. They're AD caters and they function in ways that other champions don't. Works well.
That's why AP casters work. They don't have strong autos to fall back on when their spells are on Cooldown.
And the AP champions fulfill this role. What is gained by making an AD caster that plays exactly like a mage? The entire point of AD is that you can use it to autoattack. Why make an AD champion that doesn't autoattack? Is there a design that.
That's why AD "Casters" end up as fighters or assassins.
I know. I made that exact point earlier. I know why AD casters end up as fighters or assassins or AD carries. I just don't see a problem with it. I don't see any reason to make a design that forces an AD champion not to autoattack when we could just make an AP champion for the exact same purpose with the exact same gameplay.
It all comes down to this one question for me: What can we do with a non-attacking AD champion that we can't do with an AP champion or AD champion right now?
CrazedPorcupine1 votesAD CASTER PASSIVE: Passive: This champs Auto attacks deal Base+X/lvl + (.5 AP) magic damage instead of scaling with his AD and cannot crit, but can apply sheen (he deals damage to towers equal to 60% of his total attack damage). his Abilities can critically strike dealing bonus damage equal to half his crit damage (similar to how yasuo's crits do 190% damage instead of 200%, His abilities would do 150% damage instead of double, and if he had IE, he'd do 175% damage with his abilities when they crit instead of 150%). Furthermore, he gains CDR equal to .25 of his bonus AS (opposite of what Azir gets, Azir gets AS based on his CDR) (Optional, Lifesteal is converted to an equal amount of spell vamp)
This passive still allows an AD Caster to auto, but also have the ability to behave in the same way as an AP caster without OP autos.
And your argument is, Why make an AD caster that doesn't have Strong autos, so then my counter argument is, "Why Make AP Casters that don't have strong scaling Autos"
Sightless661 votesThis passive still allows an AD Caster to auto, but also have the ability to behave in the same way as an AP caster without OP autos.
Ok, now what unique mechanic or gameplay does this allow for? What mechanic can we now give this champion to make his gameplay different from a mage's? You've shown me a champion with a unique item build, but I don't care even slightly about that. I care about unique gameplay. What can this champion do that I couldn't make a mage do?
I want to emphasize one point here. Building different items for the exact same gameplay result doesn't mean anything to me. I have to do something different in game as a result of the different itemization, or there isn't a point. Making a mage who builds Last Whisper instead of Void Staff doesn't mean that there is any unique gameplay for that champion.
furthermore, he gains CDR equal to .25 of his bonus AS
What makes the purchasing of AS for CDR unique over just purchasing CDR to accomplish the exact same thing? It has a point on Yasuo. I don't see a point here. This would be a significantly more interesting passive without your "this champion can't autoattack" ability shackled to it.
Why should I care if I'm purchasing CDR or purchasing attack speed which functions in the exact same way as CDR? Same gameplay result.
his Abilities can critically strike dealing bonus damage equal to half his crit damage
Like I said before, I'm not certain of the value of this entire concept when autoattacking is stripped from the equation. It just directly competes with other damage multiplying stats and becomes a math equation. I like the idea of critable abilities, but I like them more when autoattacks are still present on the kit. Just the attack speed -> CDR thing, I think this idea may have potential, but would work better on a kit with autoattacking than without it.
"Why Make AP Casters that don't have strong scaling Autos"
Because by default AP gives no value to autoattacking. We can use AP to create champions who are cooldown gated in ways that AD champions are not. We can also use it in some situations to create champions with uniquely functioning autoattacks (Diana, Orianna). These are things that AD in its current state can not do, so it is what we use AP for. We don't make AP casters that have strong scaling autos because there is no purpose in including that in a kit when AD is specifically designed to fulfill that role. We don't need to do things differently when doing things differently won't actually give any benefits to the game.
There already is a way to make champions with strong abilities that don't autoattack. What can be done your way that we can't do already? What unique opportunity is worth changing the paradigm for? If the answer boils down to "I can build a mage with AD instead of AP", then I don't care.
CrazedPorcupine1 votesThen what does any AP caster bring? What unique Gameplay does Brand Bring compared to Annie? What Unique Gameplay does Diana bring compared to Akali? What Unique Gameplay does any AP champ compared to another?
There are also unique fantasy's that can be made where AD is a better thematic than AP.
The AS->CDR is so that purchasing items Like Phantom Dancer doesn't feel bad. It's a way to actually purchase some of the Crit items without as much stats being wasted.
What you're asking for "Unique Gameplay" is the same issue that faces AP champions and Marksman. It's perfectly capable to create an AD mage that has Unique Gameplay from AP mages. If you want every "Mage" to be an AP champion, that cuts out a lot of cool unique fantasies that Riot can pick up and use.
Just because I don't present an entire "Kit" for you to use, doesn't mean its not possible for an AD Mage to actually exist alongside all the AP mages in the game.
Sightless661 votesWhat Unique Gameplay does any AP champ compared to another?
One champion has a mechanic that isn't on another champion's kit. That is unique gameplay. Are you suggesting they don't have different mechanics? If so, how does that help your point? What is your purpose in asking this question? You clearly have something you are trying to say, but it isn't coming across at all. Just say it. I'll read and consider what you write.
There are also unique fantasy's that can be made where AD is a better thematic than AP.
Such as? (Also, how would these designs not be served by an autoattacking AD champion?)
If you want every "Mage" to be an AP champion, that cuts out a lot of cool unique fantasies that Riot can pick up and use.
Such as?
Seriously, I just want specifics. I don't agree with the claim that we're losing any opportunities, so I want specific examples to prove me wrong. I think we can make every useful gameplay and thematic idea work without ever making an AD champion that doesn't autoattack. Prove me wrong instead of just asserting I'm wrong. I'm making a null-claim. If you're right, it can easily be falsified. Just give me an example of something we can do with an AD mage that we can't do with an AP mage or an AD that can autoattack.
Just because I don't present an entire "Kit" for you to use, doesn't mean its not possible for an AD Mage to actually exist alongside all the AP mages in the game.
Of course it can exist. I never said it couldn't. There just isn't any reason for it to exist. There is no need for this idea. I can make an AD mage, but I could just make him an AP mage instead and have exactly the same champion. I could do it without need a long-winded passive explaining exactly how he can build AD items to get the same effects that an identical champion could get from AP items. I can do it without making something that is inconsistent with how stats in this game normally work.
I don't need an entire kit. I need an example of a mechanic that would work on an AD mage but not work on an AP mage or an autoattacking AD champion. I need a reason to have this champion. I need a reason to want an AD mage other than just for the sake of having a mage that builds AD.
CrazedPorcupine1 votesLet's see, Riot has expressed A desire to rework Irelia to really fulfill the Floating Blade fantasy. This sort of passive would fit into a melee brawler caster. Using floating swords to cast her abilities would be a perfect thematic.
The best case is deals of magic that deals with blades or other martial weapons. yes, That would also lend itself well to strong autos but also a good AD Mage. Yorick Rework would also work well with this as a minion-mancer since he wouldn't want to attack much, but his ghouls or abilities would benefit from very strong solid scalings.
See, the possibilities of an AD kit that can have strong abilities, but not necessarily need a strong auto attack, would be good for certain gameplay aspects.
Sightless661 votesYou replied to yourself, not to me. Or maybe it's just gone on so long that it isn't showing the reply thing for me anymore. Hard to say.
If I had a floating blade, I'd hit someone with it. I can easily imagine fulfilling the floating blade design while having autoattacking. I'd consider it kind of weird if it didn't include autoattacking. I could see a kit that focused more heavily on ability casting by giving access to low cooldown abilities that serve as a primary damage focus (I'm thinking closer to Riven's design here), but I see no reason for removing autoattacking from that kind of kit.
Just as a side note, weapon-based stuff can work just fine on an AP caster. Katarina is an AP champion even though she essentially just throws knives everywhere. I don't think anyone has cared about the disconnect there for a very long time. It can actually improve design too, because it allows the champion to access a larger pool of unique utility items, while pure damage AD itemization doesn't really have interesting choices.
If I wanted a minion summoner, I could easily do that. minion summoning idea can easily be done through an AP champion. There is no reason I couldn't have the ghouls scale off of AP. It would even make a lot more sense for a necromancer to scale off of the magical stat. I'd also argue that this kind of summoning kit would be a very, very poor option for your crit and attack speed scaling passive idea. I'd rather have AP item choices just for the increased utility they would give such a champion (Zhonya's in particular seems like a natural fit for this kind of champion).
The only reason for an AD summoner would be to preserve some aspect of Yorick's build. But, that would cost him a much bigger part of his identity. I'm pretty sure the last word on him from Xelnath was "Shovels are cool". Would you really be the one to take the shovel smacking away?
See, the possibilities of an AD kit that can have strong abilities, but not necessarily need a strong auto attack, would be good for certain gameplay aspects.
From where I stand, this idea still provides equal or worse gameplay opportunities than existing paradigms. Never better. We can fulfill both of those designs perfectly fine within the existing paradigms. We could make them with your kind of AD mage design, but I don't see any benefit to doing so.
A big part of why I'm not fond of this idea is because it essentially just has to have multiple instances of "this stat doesn't work the way it normally does, but instead works this way only for this champion" just to give the champion item choices. AD items aren't designed to support champions that never autoattack. You can force the items to work on a pure caster kit, but even the ideas that you used to force them to work (critable spells, attack speed giving CDR) provide more interesting gameplay on a kit that has access to autoattacking. Why would we try to force this design when we can achieve the same result in a less convoluted manner by just making a champion using the traditional stats?
So, I guess I'm still unconvinced. I still think there isn't anything we can actually do better with a pure AD mage design, so I don't think it's worth making that kind of kit.
Apollocliptic1 votesThat still raises the question of what value there is in having an AD caster that can't autoattack. What differentiates this character from a mage? Normally, having AD itemization differentiates characters by allowing them to autoattack. If we want a character with strong spells who doesn't autoattack, what advantage is gained by not making them AP? What can you do with this kind of champion that can't be done in exactly the same way with an AP champion? I don't see any actual unique character design that becomes possible because of this.
The advantage is more obvious than you think, "counter builds" if you have an AD mage that can nuke an enemy team, they have to build armour instead of MR (or have taric or braum) instead of iron locket, then if you have an AP mage somewhere else on team, if changes the dynamic of teamfights, making for different kinds of games
Also: The original post was AD support I believe, got side tracked to AD mage
Sightless661 votesIt did get sidetracked quite a lot.
I don't see the idea of "counterbuilding" as being a real gameplay advantage to having an AD mage. First, we already have that right now with AD casters, AD assassins, fighters or an ADC who can force enemies to build armor, or a mage or AP assassin who makes them build MR.
Second, building a different item for defense doesn't make much of a difference to gameplay so long as the item is still just a large stat stick. It doesn't really matter if I'm getting a lot of armor or a lot of MR to counter any specific character. I'll play the same way in either case. What matters much, much, much more is what specific qualities the character that I'm playing against has. I'll play differently agaisnt a Lux than I would against a Le'blanc, but I wouldn't play differently against Lux if she did physical damage instead of magic damage (the specific item I have to build against her doesn't matter to me if it just fulfills a "be more tanky" purpose).
That's my problem with the whole concept. There isn't any mechanic we can fulfill with an AD non-autoattacker that we couldn't just fulfill with an AP mage.
Syn Zykan1 votes
and 
are very sad to hear you say that
ZephyrDrake1 votes[{quoted}](name=Syn Zykan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IyvtvTBk,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2015-04-09T08:30:17.154+0000)
2 of them are ADCs and the other is a mix between an ADC and a bruiser... not AD mages
Syn Zykan2 votesthey rely on their skillshots far more than auto attacks, they focus on poking followed by burst. They play like mages just have access to their auto attacks as well for additional consistent damage to structures .-.
You cant say why are there no ad mages and then say anything that scales with AD is an adc to shut down the mage part when they do the same thing as a mage (Hell I even play Ezreal exclusively as AP Ezreal, and you can't tell me he is an ADC then)
ZephyrDrake1 votes[{quoted}](name=Syn Zykan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IyvtvTBk,comment-id=0002000200000000,timestamp=2015-04-09T16:18:23.839+0000)
they rely on their skillshots far more than auto attacks, they focus on poking followed by burst. They play like mages just have access to their auto attacks as well for additional consistent damage to structures .-.
You cant say why are there no ad mages and then say anything that scales with AD is an adc to shut down the mage part when they do the same thing as a mage (Hell I even play Ezreal exclusively as AP Ezreal, and you can't tell me he is an ADC then)
it doesn't matter if they use skillshots more than autos they are still ADCs they aren't "AD mages" but keep thinking they are THEY ARE NOT
Syn Zykan1 votesthe point wasnt to classify them as AD mages, I know they are ADC's They just rely on casting more than most other Attack Damage Carries and have a play style similar to that of a mage. That is the reason their is no "AD Mage" Because they exist as AD Casters like Ezreal and Corki. Any champion you'd make as an AD mage would instantly fall into the same category as those 2 unless they were given a passive that gave them no AA damage which would be kinda retarded imo.
Only Play Darius1 votes
ZephyrDrake1 votes[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IyvtvTBk,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2015-04-09T09:26:44.137+0000)
he is an assassin not an AD mage
ZombieNinja War2 votes What about Me?
Apollocliptic1 voteswhy are all mages AP? why can't we have an AD mage?
Can't be bothered to read all the threads below, but Garen and Darius are bruisers, however, Urgot was the original AD Mage, it even said so on what of his spotlights, his mechanics are almost entirely Mage orientated, except he is also a tank/adc, the cross over made him really strong in some fields, but REALLY weak in others, and therefore got zoned out of most gameplay. He got a return recently, but on the most part was considered failure, prompted a lack of follow-up AD mages.
for the record, Garen and Darius can both build full AD with AS and can destroy their enemies and most of enemy teams, but it is ill advised for team composition so it rarely happens (they typically build tank and use their spells to boost damage, similar with volibear), but full AD garen and full AD volibear are so freaking powerful, if someone else on the team is tanking, they can surprise you with the damage they dish out
Urgot on the other hand can't build full AD because he gets destroyed, he needs mana and utility, CDR is good on him too, I believe Jayce might be an example of a "successful" AD mage, but again, he can just as easily be an ADC if he builds right, but again it is not advised.
Urgot has some support mechanics, as his armour shred and damage reduction help to passively support, and his improved shield and tank stats makes him a difficult opponent to handle, but he doesn't scale MR easily and has no sustain, so an AP mage will hurt him with poke. Use him to counter leona and you'll be surprised how effective he is early, but then fails hard in late game team fights (unless you are so far ahead)
In short, i think an AD mage would be interesting, but might break the games balance further, as it would be hard to implement an AD mage/support who wouldn't just start building AD and go top or mid. You'd have to cripple them somewhere else and give them mostly CC skills.
Taric comes to mind, he does AP damage, but can do massive AD damage if you build him that way, they crippled him with his lack of mobility and a stun that lasts less time than it takes to reach the target, so enemies just "walk" away from him after they burst kill the adc. Ashe is a more viable AD support, but obviously is used as an adc (Ashe and urgot are such a painful combo) but since no one ever goes with them, it's unlikely we'll see another any time soon
If they did, I'm guess it would need
An AD shield seems overpowered (riven?), and an AD heal seems awkward, maybe a lifesteal aura (that stacks with zereks) an AD scaling ultimate, and a passive that counters building AS every auto attack creates a shockwave causing small AOE and maybe a slow, but you get locked into the attack animation, so you AS can never be fluent like a vayne or jynx. (It could also be a passive of an ability - hammering strikes) AA's are replaced with an attack animation that creates AOE shockwaves, combine with other skills for combos, but prevents them from becoming DPS supports
I have other ideas but I've been typing WAY too much, peace :D
ZephyrDrake1 votesCan't be bothered to read all the threads below, but Garen and Darius are bruisers, however, Urgot was the original AD Mage, it even said so on what of his spotlights, his mechanics are almost entirely Mage orientated, except he is also a tank/adc, the cross over made him really strong in some fields, but REALLY weak in others, and therefore got zoned out of most gameplay. He got a return recently, but on the most part was considered failure, prompted a lack of follow-up AD mages.
for the record, Garen and Darius can both build full AD with AS and can destroy their enemies and most of enemy teams, but it is ill advised for team composition so it rarely happens (they typically build tank and use their spells to boost damage, similar with volibear), but full AD garen and full AD volibear are so freaking powerful, if someone else on the team is tanking, they can surprise you with the damage they dish out
Urgot on the other hand can't build full AD because he gets destroyed, he needs mana and utility, CDR is good on him too, I believe Jayce might be an example of a "successful" AD mage, but again, he can just as easily be an ADC if he builds right, but again it is not advised.
Urgot has some support mechanics, as his armour shred and damage reduction help to passively support, and his improved shield and tank stats makes him a difficult opponent to handle, but he doesn't scale MR easily and has no sustain, so an AP mage will hurt him with poke. Use him to counter leona and you'll be surprised how effective he is early, but then fails hard in late game team fights (unless you are so far ahead)
In short, i think an AD mage would be interesting, but might break the games balance further, as it would be hard to implement an AD mage/support who wouldn't just start building AD and go top or mid. You'd have to cripple them somewhere else and give them mostly CC skills.
Taric comes to mind, he does AP damage, but can do massive AD damage if you build him that way, they crippled him with his lack of mobility and a stun that lasts less time than it takes to reach the target, so enemies just "walk" away from him after they burst kill the adc. Ashe is a more viable AD support, but obviously is used as an adc (Ashe and urgot are such a painful combo) but since no one ever goes with them, it's unlikely we'll see another any time soon
If they did, I'm guess it would need
- the opposite of tarics passive - raising ad of nearby allies
- an AD shield or heal, scaling with AD or for some reason (would not advise) AS They HAVE to be melee to stop them becoming an adc, and the HAVE to lack mobility, or they will just go top or jungle. (again taric comes to mind)
An AD shield seems overpowered (riven?), and an AD heal seems awkward, maybe a lifesteal aura (that stacks with zereks) an AD scaling ultimate, and a passive that counters building AS every auto attack creates a shockwave causing small AOE and maybe a slow, but you get locked into the attack animation, so you AS can never be fluent like a vayne or jynx. (It could also be a passive of an ability - hammering strikes) AA's are replaced with an attack animation that creates AOE shockwaves, combine with other skills for combos, but prevents them from becoming DPS supports
I have other ideas but I've been typing WAY too much, peace :D
is it really that hard to comprehend that question was a sarcastic question aimed towards the OP? i could care less about how champions used to work in the past if they worked differently today...
Being immobile or melee won't stop whatever champion they design to be an "AD support" to be sent to the top. Hell if you give them enough CC they'll just send them top and have them become tanks, otherwise they will just build to compensate for their lack of mobility. If you don't give them enough CC and no mobility then no one will ever bother playing them in any role since.... what will be the point? unless the CC they will have be stupidy strong or have ridiculous low CD which once again will just make it all the more enticing to send them to top lane and become tanks/bruisers or maybe even junglers . There is very little you can do with an AD support that won't have them be sent to the top other than gimping them in such a way that they are useless unless they have someone with them at all times
Apollocliptic1 votesAfter trying Taric top a few times and even jungle, you realise that he is not very effective because of his mobility issues. Almost all other tops will outrange or out manoeuvre him, causing him to fall behind so quickly. Any top he can beat in a straight fight, simply won't fight him (unless they bronze) they will poke and retreat or hit him while he farms until he has no mana to heal anymore.
Urgot had a similar issue, no mobility made him weak to ganks, and no sustain meant any champ with a gap closer could force him into turret or make him retreat to heal, then he gets outscaled. Short of an effective jungler these AD mage top champs don't work in most cases.
If you actually paid attention to what I was trying to say, is the reasons why an AD Support/Mage WOULDNT work, or how difficult it would be to make one effective. The traits i mentioned were like minimum requirements to control their power, but you are looking at a weak bruiser as opposed to an effective support.
PS a jungle without mobility is practically useless, without sustain and without mobility is even worse. If they can't get into the lane, or it takes them ages to reach their farm, then go base, then come back, then reach lane to gank, get there too late, go another lane to gank, hide in bushes for a minute, etc, etc, they will fail. Which is why you don't see taric junglers.
So going back to the point: to make an even SLIGHTLY viable AD SUPPORT you need to take away their mobility, their range, and make sure they have at least one effective CC skill.
More cc and they become top lane tanks (which can still have support mechanics, so what, Maokai support is an epic play most don't consider) More mobiilty and they will be a jungle or top laner, simply too powerful as a support Any range and you have an adc hence why I say it needs an aura focus support mechanic, that buffs allies based on the players AD, and an AD nuke skill for unique application (yes I know riven has that already, but it's still rare)
Besides, if you're gonna make a sarcastic response, expect someone to say something, it's not about comprehension, it's about you being a douche backfiring since now you've been locked into two pretty long arguements against it (maybe even 3)
But the original point remains, it's about AD Supports, not AD mages, but AD mages is a possible thing that could be made into a support type, I just mentioned old ones and how they failed hence why it's not repeated often
If you couldn't care less, why bring it up, phycology 101, if you mention it, it's because you care dude, you say you couldn't care less but then go to argue against the point lol
ZephyrDrake1 votesAfter trying Taric top a few times and even jungle, you realise that he is not very effective because of his mobility issues. Almost all other tops will outrange or out manoeuvre him, causing him to fall behind so quickly. Any top he can beat in a straight fight, simply won't fight him (unless they bronze) they will poke and retreat or hit him while he farms until he has no mana to heal anymore.
Urgot had a similar issue, no mobility made him weak to ganks, and no sustain meant any champ with a gap closer could force him into turret or make him retreat to heal, then he gets outscaled. Short of an effective jungler these AD mage top champs don't work in most cases.
If you actually paid attention to what I was trying to say, is the reasons why an AD Support/Mage WOULDNT work, or how difficult it would be to make one effective. The traits i mentioned were like minimum requirements to control their power, but you are looking at a weak bruiser as opposed to an effective support.
PS a jungle without mobility is practically useless, without sustain and without mobility is even worse. If they can't get into the lane, or it takes them ages to reach their farm, then go base, then come back, then reach lane to gank, get there too late, go another lane to gank, hide in bushes for a minute, etc, etc, they will fail. Which is why you don't see taric junglers.
So going back to the point: to make an even SLIGHTLY viable AD SUPPORT you need to take away their mobility, their range, and make sure they have at least one effective CC skill.
More cc and they become top lane tanks (which can still have support mechanics, so what, Maokai support is an epic play most don't consider) More mobiilty and they will be a jungle or top laner, simply too powerful as a support Any range and you have an adc hence why I say it needs an aura focus support mechanic, that buffs allies based on the players AD, and an AD nuke skill for unique application (yes I know riven has that already, but it's still rare)
Besides, if you're gonna make a sarcastic response, expect someone to say something, it's not about comprehension, it's about you being a douche backfiring since now you've been locked into two pretty long arguements against it (maybe even 3)
But the original point remains, it's about AD Supports, not AD mages, but AD mages is a possible thing that could be made into a support type, I just mentioned old ones and how they failed hence why it's not repeated often
If you couldn't care less, why bring it up, phycology 101, if you mention it, it's because you care dude, you say you couldn't care less but then go to argue against the point lol
how am i arguing over the "not caring" part? or are you implying that the "not caring" meant the entire AD support thing? let me spell it nice and slow so you can understand. I do not care if someone was supposed to work in a certain way in the past if they do not work that way now. I do not care what Urgot's originally was nor how Taric originally was or ANY of the past champions originally where.