How I would nerf Fiora as a Fiora Main

gubigubi··6 votes·1,039 views

Hello I'm gubigubi. Maybe you have seen me feeding in one of your ranked games before! I'm a Fiora main with around 680k mastery on Fiora. I read a lot of comments every time Fiora does well in a professional setting about how she is very strong and needs to be nerfed for this reason and that reason. Now I see Riot is thinking about nerfing her. But I'm here to tell you how to go about nerfing Fiora in a way that will make her more fun to play against without dropping her back down to 42% win rate. Or nerfing something on her kit that wont solve long term problems. I have several options that could be looked at in order to balance her in a way that makes her more fun to play against while also keeping alot of what makes Fiora fun to play in the game.

First off I believe a little clarity could go a long way in balancing Fiora out. And by that I mean making it more clear to the enemy when Fiora is weak and when she is strong. To achieve this I suggest adding some kind of animation, sound, or particle effect to her Q (Lunge) if she misses a target and it goes on the long cool down. This will alert opponents to when Fioras main damage and escape ability is offline for longer than its normal cool down. I also believe doing the same with her W (Riposte) could go a long way in alerting opponents on when W is on CD. I suggest like with Q giving her W some sort of particle effect or animation (like a parrying dager on her back or a blue glow to her blue steel rapier) when her W is ready to be used. I think adding these alone would be enough to make Fiora a lot more fun to play against. However if that is not enough. Then we can move onto the next level of changes.

For the next level of changes to Fiora I would target her early game weakness and late game power. I believe as a duelist/skirmier she should be able to fight at all stages of the game instead of being weak early and strong late. It doesn't feel good to crush a Fiora in lane only for her to be unbeatable in 30 minutes anyways. And like wise as the Fiora it doesn't feel good knowing that you can't fight until this magical 30 minute timer goes off and you have 2-3 items. I believe she should be fairly average early, mid, and late game.

How would this be accomplished? This is harder to do than adding clarity but I believe the first place to target this change would be in Fioras W (Riposte).

The change would look something like this.

W (Riposte): Attack speed slow 50% -> 30%

Cooldown 24-22-20-18-16 -> 18 at all levels.

I believe this would allow other champions to have a more fair fight against Fiora as the 50% attack speed slow is hard to overcome in a lot of 1v1 situations even when you don't have CC that can be redirected back at you. The reduced cool down would give her a smaller window of weakness in lane phase but if the clarity changes I mentioned above are implemented it would be easier for opponents to take advantage of the window even if it is a smaller one. Even without the clarity changes the reduced attack speed slow on the W would weaken the spell enough that I think the reduced CD is justified but maybe to a lesser extent of 20 at all levels.

I have a lot more ideas on how to balance Fiora but most of those involve making her manaless or energy based around hitting vitals to restore energy which I don't have worked out enough to bring up. In the end I think the changes I bring up here would do a lot in making Fiora more fun to play as and against without actually changing all that much around in her kit.

TL;DR

Add particles, sounds, or animations to Q when its on the long CD. Add an animation to W(Riposte) when it is on/off cool down to better show when Fiora is weak. Reduce Fioras W(Riposte) attack speed slow from 50% to 30% and decrease the cool down from 24-22-20-18-16 to 18 at all levels.

And the numbers of the nerfs are numbers that can be changed. If Fiora is too strong after this then maybe change it to something like W 20 seconds at all levels and nerf the attack speed slow even more or remove entirely. But this is the type of nerf/shift in power that I think will go very far in making Fiora more fun to play against.

33 Comments

Paroe3 votes

@thread Fiora really needs the same changes that yasuo does; ultimate and defensive being swapped.

W: Grand challange After hitting a vital Fiora can challenge the target enemy champion for 3/4/5/6/7 seconds, highlighting their four Vitals and creates an area around them, granting Fiora Duelist's Dance's movement speed while inside it. While in effect, Duelist's Dance does not identify new Vitals on Fiora's target. If she triggers at least one Vital before her target dies, or triggers all four, she creates a Victory Zone that heals all allied champions within it for 2/3/4/5/6 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds

R: Riposte ACTIVE: Fiora poises to strike in the target direction and then enters a defensive stance, parrying all incoming non-turret damage and hostile crowd control effects for the next 0.5/1/1.5 seconds. After the duration, Fiora stabs her sword forward, dealing magic damage to enemies in a line based on how many attacks and crowd control effects she parried. Cooldown: 90/60/30 seconds

Since her defensive ability is AS POWERFUL AS AN ULTIMATE ABILITY it makes sense that it should be her ult. Moving her current ult and current Ws positions allows for proper tuning of numbers as well, otherwise youre left with an extremely frustrating ability.

gubigubi1 votes

I like the concept of this but I'd rather see some smaller balance changes before we jump into a mini rework if possible.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I like the concept of this but I'd rather see some smaller balance changes before we jump into a mini rework if possible.

Fair opinion but the main problem with fiora is that shes incredibly frustrating - the fact that a regular ability is almost as good as a kayle ult is a HuGE problem. Yasuo has the same problem.... Relatively balanced champions who have something which is extremely frustrating.

Roadhog on overwatch is a victim of the same thing too.

Mobez2 votes

I don't think this is a good idea. She would get absolutely destroyed in lane if this change were to happen. A .5 second invulnerability on a 90 second cooldown. This doesn't make any sense because it changes her from a duelist to a teamfighter which is not what she is supposed to be. AOE heal on a basic ability and the riposte changes are better in a teamfight. Yasuo doesn't need his abilities changed either. Windwall is really good against some champions and absolutely useless against others so it being an ultimate doesn't really feel good to the yasuo player. Not to mention fiora needs riposte more than yas needs windwall since he gets the shield from his passive. Fiora gets no defenses other than riposte so it being tied to her ult would require more power elsewhere

gubigubi1 votes

True I do feel that Fiora would take A LOT more damage in lane without any reliable way to sustain it back up if Riposte was on her R. Her all in pre 6 would be pretty crazy but just living in the lane phase in most match ups would be a lot harder for her if her riposte was on R.

Ra1uga2 votes

{quoted}

@thread Fiora really needs the same changes that yasuo does; ultimate and defensive being swapped.

W: Grand challange After hitting a vital Fiora can challenge the target enemy champion for 3/4/5/6/7 seconds, highlighting their four Vitals and creates an area around them, granting Fiora Duelist's Dance's movement speed while inside it. While in effect, Duelist's Dance does not identify new Vitals on Fiora's target. If she triggers at least one Vital before her target dies, or triggers all four, she creates a Victory Zone that heals all allied champions within it for 2/3/4/5/6 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds

R: Riposte ACTIVE: Fiora poises to strike in the target direction and then enters a defensive stance, parrying all incoming non-turret damage and hostile crowd control effects for the next 0.5/1/1.5 seconds. After the duration, Fiora stabs her sword forward, dealing magic damage to enemies in a line based on how many attacks and crowd control effects she parried. Cooldown: 90/60/30 seconds

Since her defensive ability is AS POWERFUL AS AN ULTIMATE ABILITY it makes sense that it should be her ult. Moving her current ult and current Ws positions allows for proper tuning of numbers as well, otherwise youre left with an extremely frustrating ability.

Her current ultimate tells you to back off or she's going to kill you.

She works kinda like fizz: Defensive ability as a basic one, and an ultimate that can basically mean a kill if you follow it up correctly.

Ra1uga1 votes

{quoted}

@thread Fiora really needs the same changes that yasuo does; ultimate and defensive being swapped.

W: Grand challange After hitting a vital Fiora can challenge the target enemy champion for 3/4/5/6/7 seconds, highlighting their four Vitals and creates an area around them, granting Fiora Duelist's Dance's movement speed while inside it. While in effect, Duelist's Dance does not identify new Vitals on Fiora's target. If she triggers at least one Vital before her target dies, or triggers all four, she creates a Victory Zone that heals all allied champions within it for 2/3/4/5/6 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds

R: Riposte ACTIVE: Fiora poises to strike in the target direction and then enters a defensive stance, parrying all incoming non-turret damage and hostile crowd control effects for the next 0.5/1/1.5 seconds. After the duration, Fiora stabs her sword forward, dealing magic damage to enemies in a line based on how many attacks and crowd control effects she parried. Cooldown: 90/60/30 seconds

Since her defensive ability is AS POWERFUL AS AN ULTIMATE ABILITY it makes sense that it should be her ult. Moving her current ult and current Ws positions allows for proper tuning of numbers as well, otherwise youre left with an extremely frustrating ability.

Is it realistic for Fiora to hit all 4 vitals in 3 seconds that early into the game?

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Is it realistic for Fiora to hit all 4 vitals in 3 seconds that early into the game?

If shes ahead, yeah. As a regular ability it still retains its "get away from me" zone while providing a LOT more counterplay and having it be capable of being tuned. The point of it being moved onto a regular ability is to shift her power offensively from "level and item power spikes" to just "item power spikes" - that in turn makes her less frustrating as a whole while keeping her at relatively the same power level.

Ra1uga1 votes

{quoted}

If shes ahead, yeah. As a regular ability it still retains its "get away from me" zone while providing a LOT more counterplay and having it be capable of being tuned. The point of it being moved onto a regular ability is to shift her power offensively from "level and item power spikes" to just "item power spikes" - that in turn makes her less frustrating as a whole while keeping her at relatively the same power level.

At level 2, it would be possible with just her Q and auto attacks?

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

At level 2, it would be possible with just her Q and auto attacks?

...? Just because its a basic ability doesnt mean that it needs to be easily procable at all levels. If youre ahead and you have the right runes sure its possible; IF the enemy makes a mistake.

Thats something champions like yasuo and fiora should be in the early game... champions that capitalize on MISTAKES. Your opponent engages you for harass and you pop their vital; W. You pop two vitals. Movement speed lets you pop a third. They flash away.

Or another likely scenario; You pop a vital; W you easily pop a second vital. They flash away.

You could pop five vitals this way IN LANE. Even without the passive increase of your passives movement speed, the trade off is still favorable.

reaperteaser3 votes

y not double the q mana cost and refund half if it hits a vital, good fioras arent hurt as bad and stops the spamibility

gubigubi3 votes

I'm not sure about the requirement to hit a vital because that would hit her pretty hard when she is trying to clear jungle camps or minion waves. But having it have double mana cost if you miss a target entirely I think might be a good change.

reaperteaser3 votes

refund 1/4 if it hits anything, 1/2 for vitals

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Or maybe and i know this is something truly revolutionary to the boards: we nerf fiora. end of story. Just nerf her. It's time we stop giving a bunch of champions special treatment to make sure they never fall out of meta and others get simple nerfs to the ground with no compensation what so ever for the rest of the season.

reaperteaser2 votes

if at all possible i (and i assume the balance team aswell) would prefer not to overnurf a champ for whatever reason. no champ should ever be dumpstered. im aware that this has happened before, but im sure the balance team is at least trying to make it so all champs have viability. but remember this is an ever changing game and balancing for 130 some champs aswell as items and game environment is not easy

SpookyNeedle3 votes

Interesting. I agree with these changes as a ~500k Fiora main

Shuyin1782 votes

Reduce the attack speed slow

And change % Max HP True damage to % Current HP True Damage.

gubigubi7 votes

I don't think %current HP would be a good idea. It would mean Fiora's ult and vitals get weaker as a fight goes on and she would have a difficult time finishing an opponent off as the rest of her kit does not do that much damage.

Shuyin1782 votes

She still has basic attacks and a crit steroid, I think she'd be fine

Critmaster Garen2 votes

i think they could do the same thing they did with lucian.

if they had to nerf her, which im not even convinced of, then only to her early game. increase the mana cost on her q at rank 1 and have it scale down to 0 at rank 5.

that way she would actually be slightly less garbage in midgame teamfights where she has to nonstop spam her abilities to dodge and survive. because without blue buff she actually does tend to run out of mana in drawn out fights.

gubigubi1 votes

I agree sort of. The problem is though that Fioras early game is already fairly weak while her late game is already very strong. If Fiora gets changed in any way I think it would be better for everyone if her late game got nerfed and her early game got buffed or unchanged. Her late game is the real problem so I'm not sure of a 0 mana cost at max level would help.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Her early game buffed when it is EXACTLY her early game which is the problem? Yeah.

gubigubi1 votes

Fioras early game is a problem for Fiora because her early game is too weak still. Her late game is a problem for everyone because she becomes almost unbeatable aside from a few other late game hyper carries.

I'm saying her early game needs to be strengthened slightly and her late game needs to be nerfed.

Ra1uga1 votes

{quoted}

Fioras early game is a problem for Fiora because her early game is too weak still. Her late game is a problem for everyone because she becomes almost unbeatable aside from a few other late game hyper carries.

I'm saying her early game needs to be strengthened slightly and her late game needs to be nerfed.

My problem is her ability to still somehow outduel me in the early game, and post 6 just force me under tower or get killed

it might just be me being stupid, but this is how i see fiora.

gubigubi1 votes

Idk I never win early game on Fiora or very rarely. When I play against Fiora I just go champions like Malphite and throw Q after Q after Q into her and she can't sustain or trade back so its normally a free lane. Even with the new item 1054 she has a difficult time sustaining heavy poke. Also against Fiora if you can I strongly suggest building items like item 3025 item 3047 item 3110 item 3068 These items are incredibly strong against Fiora. If you can get item 3025 into item 3047 she will do essentially 0 damage to you because her AD will be greatly reduced by the armor and her %health true damage wont have any HP that it can do damage to. The more HP you have the more damage Fiora can do to you.

Ra1uga1 votes

{quoted}

Idk I never win early game on Fiora or very rarely. When I play against Fiora I just go champions like Malphite and throw Q after Q after Q into her and she can't sustain or trade back so its normally a free lane. Even with the new item 1054 she has a difficult time sustaining heavy poke. Also against Fiora if you can I strongly suggest building items like item 3025 item 3047 item 3110 item 3068 These items are incredibly strong against Fiora. If you can get item 3025 into item 3047 she will do essentially 0 damage to you because her AD will be greatly reduced by the armor and her %health true damage wont have any HP that it can do damage to. The more HP you have the more damage Fiora can do to you.

Those items (except tabi) do not synergize well with champions I play top lane. I can see those working, but i don't know of any champion besides malphite and galio who can build those items and have good poke

gubigubi1 votes

Ah I op.gg you and I see you play Kled and some GP. Both of those champions are pretty weak against Fiora. You might be able to win lane phase with them against Fiora but once she gets 2 items you aren't going to be dueling her. For Kled I would try to safely farm early. Fiora most of the time will push the wave in specially after she gets tiamat. That will make ganking her with the jungler possible. Get Ninja Tabis and later in the game do not try to duel her. Let her split push and hard engage on her team with your ult and she will either have to TP or if she does not have TP her team will likely have to fight a 4v5. Hard engage champions can punish Fioras split pushing by jumping on her team.

For GP you might be able to poke her out of lane with Q. Even if you get ahead though you must know that GP cannot really fight Fiora unless he has a good barrel set up or good poke at the start of the fight. Focus on helping your team out with your ult and never fight Fiora in the open without poke first.

I don't really play much Kled or GP so I'm not sure if there are any better items for them to build against Fiora. I would just recommend Ninja Tabi and not dueling her in a 1v1 setting if at all possible.

Ra1uga1 votes

{quoted}

Ah I op.gg you and I see you play Kled and some GP. Both of those champions are pretty weak against Fiora. You might be able to win lane phase with them against Fiora but once she gets 2 items you aren't going to be dueling her. For Kled I would try to safely farm early. Fiora most of the time will push the wave in specially after she gets tiamat. That will make ganking her with the jungler possible. Get Ninja Tabis and later in the game do not try to duel her. Let her split push and hard engage on her team with your ult and she will either have to TP or if she does not have TP her team will likely have to fight a 4v5. Hard engage champions can punish Fioras split pushing by jumping on her team.

For GP you might be able to poke her out of lane with Q. Even if you get ahead though you must know that GP cannot really fight Fiora unless he has a good barrel set up or good poke at the start of the fight. Focus on helping your team out with your ult and never fight Fiora in the open without poke first.

I don't really play much Kled or GP so I'm not sure if there are any better items for them to build against Fiora. I would just recommend Ninja Tabi and not dueling her in a 1v1 setting if at all possible.

Thats assuming my jungler has a heart :/

so with GP i would rather take grasp and go bruiser build rather than the standard crit build for better poke?

How would full AD Jarvan do against fiora?

gubigubi1 votes

Its about the same situation with full AD Jarvan. You might be able to lane well against Fiora but mid and late game you probably can't 1v1 her. You can hard engage on her team before she can react though.

If you want to duel Fiora you have to play Akali Jax Kayle Nasus Riven Shyvana Tryndamere XinZhao Yasuo Zed for ADC Draven Kalista KogMaw Vayne If you go about even most of these champions can duel Fiora if you play it right or if the Fiora plays it wrong. You can duel Fiora with many other champions but these ones can be difficult for Fiora or at least ones I would consider strong duelers.

Jar Jar binks l1 votes

My Idea

Remove Attack Speed Slow completly Reduce her healing

gubigubi1 votes

I think removing the attack speed slow completely might be too much. However I do think it is the most frustrating part of her kit to play against because even if she doesn't riposte CC back into you a 50% attack speed slow means you have to stand their like an idiot for 1 second and can't really fight back.

I'm also not sure about reducing her healing. By that do you mean reducing the healing on her ult or her passive? item 3123 is already fairly strong against Fiora if you can build that item.

Elkington VI1 votes

I feel the AS slow is a bit overbearing and removing it wouldn't change how Fiora plays. Some people thought Lee Sin would be destroyed if he got his AS slow removed and he's still a strong pick to this day.

hotarse1 votes

CD between procing vitals during ulti (1.5/1.2/1) seconds. Higher CD between dashes that hit. Fiora needs to be more precise to hit vitals. At the moment you can even proc vitals that are up against the wall from the other side of the champ.

Also, you're the worst kind of person. I can only imagine the pain you've inflicted with all those Fiora games. All the salt. I hope your champ gets balanced.

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