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So Ahri's sustain is getting nerfed because of QQ?

Jeanne fan club··8 votes·1,938 views
8/7 PBE Update

THIS POST IS MAINLY TO ADDRESS ALL THE AHRI QQ GOING AROUND

So Vayne and riven QQ threads get ignored, even though their player-bases are the most toxic things known to man, and 2 QQ Ahri threads get her sustain nerfed? Sure go ahead and take this as me complaining. I don't see how making her early sustain terrible will help "balance her". Though I will admit her late game sustain on her passive is a bit much and should be tuned down a bit like the proposed change on the PBE.

I am going to start out by saying that most of the people complaining about Ahri are probably only salty because the were outplayed once. There is no other realistic reason to be QQ'ing over a champion that has 3 skillshots (counting ult) and a close range w that only hits all 3 orbs half the time.

The weak points on Ahri revolve around her being susceptible to poke, and harass in the lane phase. and targeted abilities and cc in the late game. Contrary to popular belief, Ahri doesn't trade well in lane. If the opposing laner decides to try and combo 2+ abilities pre 6 ahri can only throw out a Q assuming that the opposing laner isn't an idiot and is standing behind minions. Ahri's w will not hit the enemy, and neither will a charm. Also there is no guarantee that her Q will hit anyway as it is a skillshot. That is the point of the Q movement speed, to allow her to avoid the trades that she will for sure not win in.

Now lets just assume that the Ahri takes some poke, which is inevitable anyways. With the way her passive works right now it takes over 200 mana to actually use her passive which will heal her for about 70 assuming she hits about 5 minions. I am not saying this number is correct, it is a bit high for a mana to hp ratio. What I am saying is that 18 is unnoticeable and will result in her being stuck with no hp in lane without a proper way to survive. 200 mana to regen 18 hp... and that's assuming she hits ALL 6 minions. Pre 6 is where she NEEDS the sustain passive. She should at least get 50 hp back so that spending 200+ mana actually seems reasonable.

Lets go back to when she was first nerfed.

  • DFG REMOVED

  • Charm no longer grants 20% extra damage

ON THE PLUS SIDE

  • Q movement speed

  • Various W fixes that made it a much better ability

  • ULT fixes which made her play a lot better

  • Extra base and scaling damage on her charm

NOW, keep all of those changes in mind as we look at most of them get taken away the very next patch

  • Q increased mana cost

  • ULT acquisition range decreased

  • W damage reduced back to how it once was

  • W acquisition range decreased.

So all in all the changes eventuated into this

  • DFG REMOVED

  • Charm 20% damage removed

  • Q costs more mana

  • W acquisition range decreased

  • ULT acquisition range decreased

  • Charm no longer stops unstoppable affects (XD this really helped me save my teammates)

And what we got in return was this

  • Q movement speed

  • W spins a little faster/bug fixes

  • E increase of damage

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't think that much was put back in Ahri's favor other than the Q movement speed.

So the ACTUAL reason that people are complaining about her. Her play and win rate.

http://champion.gg/champion/Ahri/Middle

Excuse me for using a source that only takes into consideration the players in plat+, but I think they have a better idea of whats going on than the other players. As you can see, her play and win rates are the only things in the single digits (other than deaths) for role placement. This means that her win rate is most likely a fluke.

Now, I am a bit biased because I myself am an Ahri main. I neglected to state this because if I said this first you wouldn't have listened to anything I have said Prior. I stated the facts of how to win vs Ahri, poke and harass pre 6 and cc and target abilities post 6. I know exactly how to play against her, and if I ever die to her I know it was a completely avoidable reason. Now, can we move on with our day instead of QQ-ing on the boards about a champ that doesn't need a nerf? Thank you for reading this and taking my point of view into consideration... hopefully.

EDIT: Just realized my mistake... its 36 hp back from passive. Ignore this post and go on with your day... oops

44 Comments

LadyRenly5 votes

This literally accomplishes nothing though. She'll be the same balanced champ she was, people will still QQ here that she is insanely OP and "LOOK AT HER PLAY/WINRATE!"

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Well you have a point I guess. I just think its odd that nothing is being done about champs who get a new QQ thread every singe day, and the one time its Ahri something is being done about it.

Dedrius4 votes

Well when a champion has a 54% winrate (3rd highest of any champion) and a 20% pick rate (the Highest of any champion) there seems to be an issue. It shows that Ahri is a champion that whether you have played 100 games on her or this is your first game on her, you will have a similar result which is a near 54% winrate.

This shows when looking at the winrate based on number of games played on her which is around 53% for 1-5 games and 55% for 125+.

LadyRenly1 votes

It's not like she's the poster girl of League and is a sexy animal girl, that could explain the pick rate. And she doesn't have a shoddy gimmick/in game minigame

Dedrius1 votes

A lot of things could explain the pick rate and a high pick rate isn't an issue but when the highest pick rate also has the 3rd highest win rate there is an issue.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Yeah, you are right actually XD. If I could count I would have realized that I was wrong a lot sooner. But really, this post is just about the numerous QQ threads that popped up the last 2 days for no reason whatsoever. Oops, sry for taking up your time.

Lugg5 votes

This so called nerf is a complete joke. Why are you even making a post about it? It won't impact her game in the slightest.

Godaren5 votes

{quoted}

This so called nerf is a complete joke. Why are you even making a post about it? It won't impact her game in the slightest.

because he is an ahri main....

Jeanne fan club1 votes

The post was mostly to address the needless Ahri QQ that has been going on the past 2 days. I probably should have neglected to include the Ahri sustain nerf TBH, but I though that it would mean something I guess. Also I cant count, she heals 36 hp assuming she hits all 6 minions in a wave. Sry to take your time I guess, oops. I'm not good at the typing and thinking thing if you couldn't tell :\

At least I include how to counter Ahri so people can stop complaining about her already.

Lugg1 votes

My post wasn't directed to you personally. It was addressed to the Ahri mains who are acting the world is going to end if this silly nerf goes thru. That's what I was aiming for.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Ah, well I can sort of understand the unrest TBH. As soon as people started QQ-ing for no reason, the PBE announces a small change for Ahri, along with the "new skin curse" I am sure that a lot of Ahri mains are scared for the changes to come. Thank you for being reasonable and not jumping on the Ahri hate train like a lot of other people did for no specific reason. <3

stuartk113 votes

To address a few points.

First, I never really felt that Ahri needs sustain anyways. Most other mages don't have sustain, and they do fine. I know there is a difference between to be drawn, but the point will still stand.

Secondly, and I can't stress this enough. EVERY champion in the game is countered by CC. Even Olaf and Irelia. But Ahri is less affected because she is able to dodge it easier than a lot of other mages. But, she has a short range. So she usually has to enter her opponent's range to deal her damage. There definitely is a trade off.

And third, something you may have missed, her damage early isn't that spectacular. It's okay, but she's not going to be going crazy until the mid game. This is common for mages, but worth remembering.

My main problem with Ahri is that she is too safe of a champion. It reminds me of when Xerath was popular for a while. It was miserable. And there was little your opponents could do to fight against you aswell, because his waveclear was ludicrous. Ahri is also a safe champion, and I feel that hitting her sustain will make little difference because most other mages perform well without it. I think that if they wanted her to keep her current sustain, then they should alter how she gets her movement speed buff from her Q such as requiring to hit an enemy with it (you could even have the movement speed increase if she hits a champion).

Jeanne fan club1 votes

You have a point about the safety I guess.

stuartk111 votes

It's not really that bad. There are some small changes that could be made, and she could even be allowed to be buffed in other areas if she didn't have the great safety anyways. She can still have the ultimate, and her movespeed on her Q. But make her Q require to hit an enemy champion to get the move speed. She can still kite, but the opponents can actually attempt to dodge it.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

You do have the point on the Q hitting, It serves almost no purpose if it misses which is pretty balanced. I think that it would hurt her laning phase because of how weak she is to harass and poke though. for example, she would have to be in orb range the whole matchup to dodge a lot of combos that the opposing laner can throw at her. Then again her orb is pretty easy to hit if the enemy is channeling an ability or going up to cs. It is a good idea I suppose, but you do have to keep in mind her Q is the only thing she can trade in lane if the enemy is standing behind minions. Yeah, I think that this would be a good idea if her base movement speed was slightly increased so at least she has a better chance of surviving the pre 6 lane phase.

Jeez, people really took my post the wrong way, I mainly wanted to address the numerous QQ threads that came out of nowhere lately. I don't know what happened the past 2 days that made everyone start complaining about Ahri, but I honestly think that they just don't know how to play against her.

stuartk111 votes

You can definitely increase her movement speed. She is supposed to be a mobile, kiting mage. So she needs to be decently fast. It would also allow Riot to address some of her other issues without worrying as much about her being so overbearing, such as small reductions in some of her mana costs.

I'm mostly just spitballing ideas though. There is space to balance her very well, and allow her to be strong. She has counterplay built into her kit already, so not much needs to be done. Just something small.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Thats practically it actually, Make her Q MS on hit and Increase base MS. TBH I think that small change would end a lot of the complaints about her ( the valid complaints ). Her Q is not as long range as a lot of other mages abilities so she has to play relatively close to the minion wave, and defiantly in the range of the opposing laner. She is weak against oppressive lanes pre 6 and weak against cc and targeted abilities the whole game. Her kit relies on outplay potential and picking up on the opposing laners mistakes.

This seems like a completely balanced champion if those changes are to take place. I think a lot of the complaints about her are from people who don't know how to play against her and who fail to understand her weaknesses. Practically every lane match up is based on pure skill ( except for annie ) and experience. Every kill from an Ahri can be summed up to a misplay on the opposing laner. mistakes like not dodging or being out of position and being charmed are all mistakes that can be avoided. There aren't any blatant unfair advantages that Ahri has that can be exploited by players without skill to gain an edge over the opposing laner.

Really I think that she would not need to be changed again after the changes that we just proposed. She has clear counterplay that people just don't wish to accept.

DJ Di02 votes

Tl;dr but this nerf is justified and doesn't go overboard like they did with Nidalee's recent nerf.

IQ DROP2 votes

if they nerf her more she wont be good she is already mana hungry early game. and fails to deliver the damage a ASSASSIN champion has to offer so they're breaking a champion has gone through nerfs so many times.

League never nerfs the champions that are OP because of they're popularity and play rate and people say "noo dont nerf my main." Such bull riot nerf that champs that need nerfs and you nerf the champs that have already been withered away and they're play rates go down and then you buff them when that happens. So stupid

Theorchero2 votes

Because she's absurdly strong. She has fairly long range while being massively mobile. Being a mobile assassin is fine, but being a mobile assassin with good sustain isn't.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

She is countered by targeted abilities in all stages of the game, and long range poke, or 2+ ability combos pre-6. Her sustain is overwhelming at higher levels, and I do feel as if her early game sustain should be nerfed, as I've said already. But I don't think that 200+ mana for 18 hp is correct. She is weak in the early game as she loses most trades without her ult ( that's why she has q movement speed so she can avoid them ) and targeted abilities and aoe stuns counter her hard. I think that she should be able to heal for a max of about 40 hp pre 6 so she is able to stay in lane vs oppressive laners longer. 18 hp is quite literally unnoticeable and an adc would be able to heal that much with dorans blade in a matter of about 5 autos.

I just realized that I cant math -.- its 36 hp back from her passive. oops.

Sasogwa2 votes

Ahri is very strong right now and will still be strong after this tiny "nerf"

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Yeah probably, but she will perform awfully against oppressive lanes.

Sasogwa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Trianglez,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IlhEBHi1,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-08-08T18:28:29.749+0000)

Yeah probably, but she will perform awfully against oppressive lanes.

You're telling me a nerf on her sustain of her passive by 0 to 8 health regened (in average around 4 or 5, 2 at lvl 18) is gonna make her perform awfully against oppressive lanes. You know that's 1/30 th of a health pot value of healing, right? That's freaking negligible.

Tourian2 votes

Because Ahri is an overloaded turd of a champion. People talk about Elise and Lee but christ, Ahri and to a lesser degree Wukong have some of the stupidest kits.

Ahri: Insane burst, true damage, retarded sustain for an assassin, 4 flashes (3 of which damage) making her almost impossible to gank or catch, hard ranged CC with a massive hitbox, needless speedboost, can burst down squishies even if she fucks up and misses her skill shots. She is also really really easy to play for what she can do.

As hard as people bitch about Lee, Elise and Riven at least they take a good amount of practice to not be a laughing stock spectacle.

KayleeT3 votes

{quoted}

Because Ahri is an overloaded turd of a champion. People talk about Elise and Lee but christ, Ahri and to a lesser degree Wukong have some of the stupidest kits.

Ahri: Insane burst, true damage, retarded sustain for an assassin, 4 flashes (3 of which damage) making her almost impossible to gank or catch, hard ranged CC with a massive hitbox, needless speedboost, can burst down squishies even if she fucks up and misses her skill shots. She is also really really easy to play for what she can do.

As hard as people bitch about Lee, Elise and Riven at least they take a good amount of practice to not be a laughing stock spectacle.

Your QQ is retarded Ahri's dashes aren't blinks and doesn't nearly have the range flash does. She cannot burst down any fucking squishy without hitty BOTH Q and E, what insanely fed Ahri raped you ?

Tourian1 votes

The best part is you ASSume I've personally ever had a problem with playing against an Ahri myself. Unlike most people in this board I dont bitch about champions I haven't at least taken the time to try out first. Champions that get bitched about because they're strong in the right hands but actually take quite a bit of knowledge: Lee, Riven, Elise Yasuo. Champions that get bitched about and are stupidly easy to play: Ahri, Annie. And you can most certainly burst down squishes without hitting your SS's. You don't have to kill someone to be effective if you didn't know. Forcing their flash or a back is a victory in itself if you know how to handle it afterwards.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Because Ahri is an overloaded turd of a champion. People talk about Elise and Lee but christ, Ahri and to a lesser degree Wukong have some of the stupidest kits.

Ahri: Insane burst, true damage, retarded sustain for an assassin, 4 flashes (3 of which damage) making her almost impossible to gank or catch, hard ranged CC with a massive hitbox, needless speedboost, can burst down squishies even if she fucks up and misses her skill shots. She is also really really easy to play for what she can do.

As hard as people bitch about Lee, Elise and Riven at least they take a good amount of practice to not be a laughing stock spectacle.

Don't disagree with a word you've said but I wish people would stop saying she has four flashes. If someone was complaining about Udyr would you not question someone saying he has "lots of speed boosts and a flash?". It's not an intrinsic part of her kit and honestly "she has 3 flashes" gets the point across regardless.

I do agree she's overloaded in any case - I don't really mind champions having a lot in their kit but current Ahri is in old Lee/Elise territory right now where she's not bad enough at anything for it to be worth taking specialists over her. Hopefully the passive nerf goes some way to helping this - at least now you've more chance of poking her out of lane, which is important when she's so hard to force out with a gank.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Her kit is pretty basic compared to a lot of midlaners actually. Almost every midlaner has a form of CC, and poke. Ahri's W offers no utility and has very short range, unlike most other midlaners. As I've stated before she need the movement speed on her Q to avoid unfavorable trades. Her Q is the only thing she can trade with in lane, and has shorter range than a lot of midlane poke abilities. This opens her up to receiving poke. Her charm is pretty straight forward in the sense that if you are hit by it, it's your fault. Now, I'm guessing you overlooked all of her weak points and jumped on the Ahri hate train like everyone else. Her ult. Imagine Ahri without her Ult. NO kill pressure, no outplay potential, short range and weak to poke, harass, cc and targeted abilities. With her ult, she is able to counter play skillshots, and position herself to better increase her chances of landing her own skillshots.

There is no one to blame but yourself if you die to Ahri. She is reliant on landing skill shots and outplaying the opponent. I don't see where she is comparable to lee sin or elise in any way shape or form as her kit is pretty basic compared to a lot of the other midlaners.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Trianglez,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IlhEBHi1,comment-id=000800010000,timestamp=2015-08-09T03:52:23.194+0000)

Her kit is pretty basic compared to a lot of midlaners actually. Almost every midlaner has a form of CC, and poke. Ahri's W offers no utility and has very short range, unlike most other midlaners. As I've stated before she need the movement speed on her Q to avoid unfavorable trades. Her Q is the only thing she can trade with in lane, and has shorter range than a lot of midlane poke abilities. This opens her up to receiving poke. Her charm is pretty straight forward in the sense that if you are hit by it, it's your fault. Now, I'm guessing you overlooked all of her weak points and jumped on the Ahri hate train like everyone else. Her ult. Imagine Ahri without her Ult. NO kill pressure, no outplay potential, short range and weak to poke, harass, cc and targeted abilities. With her ult, she is able to counter play skillshots, and position herself to better increase her chances of landing her own skillshots.

There is no one to blame but yourself if you die to Ahri. She is reliant on landing skill shots and outplaying the opponent. I don't see where she is comparable to lee sin or elise in any way shape or form as her kit is pretty basic compared to a lot of the other midlaners.

I'm not on the Ahri hate train, I like her a lot. I just think she's somewhat lacking in identity since her DFG compensation because they toned down her power in the area she most excelled at at the time (assassinations) and threw it into kiting and safety. They made her capable of pretty much everything.

I do not think that Ahri has any one move in particular that does too much (although you could make an argument about her Q), but I think all of her abilities bar W doing completely different things is noteworthy. I'm not gonna list them because I don't really care that much about Ahri, but most mid laners have a much stronger identity in their kits than Ahri does right now and IMO that's the problem with her balance at the mo. She does a bit of everything.

What I will say is that I do not understand why the movement speed is needed on her Q for avoiding unfavourable trades. She never had that before the DFG removal, did she lose every trade back then?

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Yeah she did actually, pre-6 because she could still only trade with her Q because her E was very situational, and her W still was never in range to actually do damage, though her W had a longer range than it does now. As you said, she was centered around assassinations with DFG, her kiting was neglect-able as a lot of other champions could kite as well as she could. With DFG she was just a typical assassin with crazy burst because of the item.

Ahri defiantly needs some sort of movement speed to help dodge the opposing laners abilities, and to specialize her at kiting, because she would be an extremely basic, dull champion without her Q movement speed. Also, if you read the post, you would see that that is the one thing that was a flat out buff on her, everything else was a minor rework or nerf.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Ok, you are complaining about how safe Ahri is and her cc. Ahri has relatively short range compared to most midlaners. That is the reason she has the speed buff and hard CC, she has to be close to the minion wave to harass and cs because her q range is shorter than a lot of midlane poke abilities. This shorter than average range would make her very weak to pre-6 ganks assuming she didn't have the mobility on her Q, or the hard cc on her charm. Do you know what else Ahri is weak against? pre-6 poke and lane bullies. If she didn't have movement and hard cc in her kit she would have one of the weakest early games in the entire game because of how unsafe she would be and how short her range is in comparison to other mid laners. Ahri is in no way overloaded.

Lets compare Ahri to another midlane champion, Xerath. Xerath's q has a longer range than Ahri's, allowing him to be further away from the minion wave, thus making him safe. Xerath's W has a MUCH longer range than Ahri's W, so much so that Xerath can throw a Q W combo and Ahri can only trade back with her Q. Not to mention Xerath's W gives a slow, while Ahri's foxfire offers no utility whatsoever, which is fine. Xerath's E and Ahri's E are both single target skillshot stuns. So as of right now, lets assume this is pre-6. Xerath will win trades because he out-ranges Ahri, and he can use both his Q and W to trade, where as Ahri can only use her Q. Both lanes are very difficult to gank because of how safe Xerath is, and how Ahri's kit works. Naturally, Ahri has a large disadvantage pre-6, and will get harassed, this is part of the reason why she has the Q movement speed, to avoid the unfavorable trades she will get in lane pre-6. Post-6, pure skill determines the lane, as an Ahri won't get a kill unless the other laner makes a mistake. I am not QQ-ing about Xerath BTW, he just happened to be the first champ I thought of while typing.

I don't completely understand your comment about Ahri taking no skill. Sure she can play ultra safe in lane and use her ult as an escape and never die, but she has no kill pressure that way. She has 3 skillshots counting her ult, and it takes a lot of practice to learn how to use it efficiently, and to outplay your opponents using it to dodge and position yourself properly to go on the offensive. Not to mention how easy it is to shut her down with cc, aoe, and targeted abilities. The people who play Ahri the first few times typically use their ult incorrectly, or purely defensively which is ok for newer players. This just means that they won't be making any fancy plays that get their team ahead or influence the game positively.

So to sum it up, Ahri has a Q with a movement speed buff that gives a bit of utility, a W that is only good for close range damage and nothing else, a hard cc single target skillshot, which is pretty common on a lot of midlaners, and an ult that gives 3 dashes, used for either counter play or an escape. If you don't jump on the Ahri nerf train and actually look at her kit you can see that she isn't overpowered, but heavily reliant on outplaying the opponent and punishing mistakes.

It's not really a good idea to QQ when you don't really know what you are talking about BTW

Caytheles1 votes

I didnt even have a problem with her sustain. It is that goshdarn movement speed she gets from her Q. That is the only thing i think that needs nerfing.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

As I said in the post she needs that Q movement speed to avoid trades, Ahri can't trade back anything other than her Q because her w is almost always out of range and her E requires the enemy not to be behind minions.

Caytheles2 votes

Though that is true. a good way to balance it is if she were to get the Movement speed id she were to hit an enemy champion. This way Her trade potential still remains the same, but would also allow other people to be able to land slow skillshots if they dodge her Q succesfully. But hey, we all have our opinions.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Its not a bad idea, but I think that the only way for that to work is if she received a bit of increased base movement speed in return, maybe like 5 extra would be a fine change. She is short ranged and weak to trading pre-6 after all so she needs to rely on dodging skillshots to win lane. But the Q ms on hit is a pretty good idea TBH. I would be fine with that change. :3

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Well if those are your opinions then that's fine. I just don't like the fact that her passive will be non-existant when she needs it most. 200+ mana for 18 hp back when she is most susceptible to poke seems like a joke to me. Also its the fact that she is being nerfed at all after all the negative changes.

Also this isn't just a reply on the nerf, this is to address the QQ ahri threads too.

Just realized my mistake, its 32 hp back from her passive. this changes a lot actually. oops

Dracid1 votes

because Riven doesnt need nerfs. you'd know that if you were not a scrub

Jeanne fan club1 votes

I think riven is fine TBH, she requires a lot of skill to successfully pull of and is weak to a LOT of things. The people QQ-ing about her are just salty they were outplayed.

SwapShadows1 votes

every time you try to kill her she ults and Q's and instantly becomes safe even if its a 5 man gank.

or when you actually poke her and she heals all of it up in 1 Q.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Her sustain is a little strong for early levels, but you are over-exaggerating about her Q. If she used her ult to escape, congratulations, she lost all of her kill pressure and is very weak for all the time it is on CD.

Bronzoid1 votes

Last I checked neither Riven nor Vayne had 55% win rate. Seriously, Ahri mains are disgusting. They think their champ is balanced at 58% win rate.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

erm... excuse me? did you even read the thread thingy? Jesus, this Ahri hate train is crazy, hard to believe that people didn't complain about her just 2 days ago.

SantanaTheSlick 1 votes

ahri wont get nerfed because she is getting a skin soon so

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