"Fiora spams her abilities like hell and totaly screws me over with it..."

Raoul·Mar 7, 2016·43 votes·4,060 views

http://i.imgur.com/069592h.jpg

Honestly, why does Fiora even have mana? all her abilities cost barely anything and her bar seems to never empty anyway...

39 Comments

PennsMar 7, 20165 votes

At level 6, 1 full combo costs about half her mana lel

KingopantsMar 7, 20169 votes

Although I don't think Fiora is completely broken her mana costs are really low. At level 6 a full combo is 220 Mana out of 458 and Most of that is because ult with the cost of 100 mana. In the next 15 seconds she will have regenerated 32 mana and with the remainder of her pool she can do ~9 Qs or ~5 Ws or ~6.8 Es assuming she regenerated no more.

PennsMar 7, 20163 votes

Yeah well but Riven can use all of her spells as much as she wants and doesnt really pay for it. I think Fiora is too strong but the fact that her Q doesnt cost a lot of mana is ok imo.

101100111000Mar 7, 20167 votes

But Riven doesn't get %max hp true damage, an invulnerability frame + counter cc, or a slow followed by a guaranteed crit.

She gets a knock-up, a stun, and 4-ish gap closers.

Serika ZeroMar 7, 20164 votes

And shield that scales with AD and an AD steroid passive and an AD steroid ultimate and a execute ultimate

invisiblecat1Mar 8, 20161 votes

Shield that scales with BONUS AD,... her passive is not as strong as Fiora's, and the AD steroid on her ultimate is not even as godd as you may believe it is since it does not last too long

Serika ZeroMar 8, 20162 votes

its unfair to mention all of fiora's kit and only half of riven's to make her seem bad on purpose don't you think? tho, he forgot the heal and unlimited dashes

101100111000Mar 8, 20161 votes

I was mostly listing the trade-offs, considering technically both champions have unlimited dashes and the heal can be compared against the shield (although not evenly). I don't really take Riven's ult into consideration, seeing as %missing hp to a group is much different than 4-5 %max hp true damage procs in extended skirmishes is hard to compare.

Slamurai JackMar 7, 20164 votes

Saying Riven has 4 gap closers is kinda disingenuous when 3 of them are on her Q and the 3 of them together are comparable to most melee gap closers. I don't even play her, but I still get annoyed by "Riven has 4 gap closers!" as if the length of them doesn't matter.

invisiblecat1Mar 8, 20163 votes

She basically has 1 gap closer if all "4" are used in without moving in between

chipndip1Mar 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But Riven doesn't get %max hp true damage, an invulnerability frame + counter cc, or a slow followed by a guaranteed crit.

She gets a knock-up, a stun, and 4-ish gap closers.

She also gets a projectile execute, the ability to jump over walls, an ad scaling shield, and a sexy bunny outfit.

Weiner the PoohMar 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Although I don't think Fiora is completely broken her mana costs are really low. At level 6 a full combo is 220 Mana out of 458 and Most of that is because ult with the cost of 100 mana. In the next 15 seconds she will have regenerated 32 mana and with the remainder of her pool she can do ~9 Qs or ~5 Ws or ~6.8 Es assuming she regenerated no more.

That 220 is assuming she only uses each skill once, yet she has to constantly rotate her Q+E, which will rapidly drain her mana.

Meep ManMar 7, 20165 votes

Yeah, but not even half the time does Fiora really want to use all of her abilities at once since she is pretty big on edging someone down with Q (20-40 mana cost) and then stopping retaliation with W. Her E is really only used when she wants to really engage on a target as well as her R. Not to mention the ultimate is nearly 45% of that mana cost since it's 100 mana

FrankerXMar 7, 20164 votes

hauntzer at iem be like: im fiora and i engage the fight with 0 mana so all i can do is autoattack. oh we lost a 5v4 with 10k goldlead? how did that happen? LETS MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE IN 2 MORE GAMES!!!

LatetotheRaceMar 7, 201611 votes

How did you even get 0 mana? Negative mana regen runes?

FrankerXMar 7, 20164 votes

its an example. he used q 2 times in the whole fight because thats all he had mana left for. not sure why ppl downvote me, but yea i talk bad about tsm so no wonder ppl hate... cant talk bad about tsm without pissing off the community

LatetotheRaceMar 7, 20166 votes

You gave a stupid example in which you made terrible decisions in the first place.

FrankerXMar 7, 20167 votes

why is it a stupid example when it lost them a 5v4 with a 10k goldlead against EVER? hauntzer played horrible as fiora, he used his w to poke and in the fight he used q 2 times then was oom and did nothing. ik truth is hard to handle especially as a fan, but thats it

TurquoiseYoshiMar 7, 20169 votes

But it has nothing to do with this thread. The only semblance of likeness was lost when you started bashing on TSM rather than contributing to the discussion on Fiora's mana use (or lack thereof).

FrankerXMar 7, 201611 votes

it has a lot to do with this thread. the op trys to be funny by saying you get old and die before fiora is ever oom. and i said "look at hauntzer, this guy lost 3 games because he was oom with fiora 24/7" how is this not part of the thread?

LauchmelderMar 8, 20161 votes

Because this is a discussion about Fiora, not pro play.

SouL1essMar 8, 20163 votes

Because Riot never knew how to correctly implement mana burden on anyone.

Unless your name is Kog'maw, in which case using your ult 6 times leaves you with a completely empty mana pool.

Aych PiiMar 8, 20162 votes

I hope this is a joke. That's an easily fixable problem. Have you read the ability's description?

SouL1essMar 8, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aych Pii,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IdpeLlRW,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-03-08T05:19:10.925+0000)

I hope this is a joke. That's an easily fixable problem. Have you read the ability's description?

I don't understand what your point is.

Kog using ult 6 times requires 1050 mana. He has a base mana pool of 1022 at max level.

It's not as bad as Kassadin but Kassadin has ways to get mana back in his own kit.

Now, if you are saying that Kog'maw's ult deals too much damage at too long of a range to be able to be spammed, I would say the ability doesn't feel rewarding to use at any point in the game. It heavily punishes misses and has pathetic damage/use outside of a VERY specific scenario. It lowers your DPS if you use it during W due to its cast time, so it's not a teamfight skill either especially given its damage scaling.

Kog'maw's ult deserves an ammo system much more than the current mana-curve limitation it has. If the point is to not use it more than 4 times in a 8 second period, why not just use an ammo system to represent its use? Currently it's mana intensive starting at the second shot and doesn't reap a lot of rewards outside of a specific scenario.

Aych PiiMar 17, 20161 votes

It's actually a very artful concept. Just like Kassadin, the way the system works is designed to give you ability to use R as many times in quick succession as you think is necessary, while also discouraging you from using it for no reason with the increasing mana gate. To use your own example, the point isn't not to use it more than 4 times in 8 seconds; the point is that while you normally shouldn't use it more than 4 times in 8 seconds, you have that option if it fits the scenario. An ammo system would thus be a nerf unless it had a recharge rate and max charge that completely dwarf the current setup. If you find yourself running out of mana a lot, try to think more carefully about when it's necessary to use and when it's not.

As a side note, mechanics that increase the value of a certain stat for the specific champion are (generally speaking) quite good for game health. Kog'maw's ult allows him to get significant mileage out of any max mana increases he buys, which from a game design perspective is a really nice advantage over the traditional ammo system.

SouL1essMar 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aych Pii,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IdpeLlRW,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-17T15:41:21.967+0000)

It's actually a very artful concept. Just like Kassadin, the way the system works is designed to give you ability to use R as many times in quick succession as you think is necessary, while also discouraging you from using it for no reason with the increasing mana gate. To use your own example, the point isn't not to use it more than 4 times in 8 seconds; the point is that while you normally shouldn't use it more than 4 times in 8 seconds, you have that option if it fits the scenario. An ammo system would thus be a nerf unless it had a recharge rate and max charge that completely dwarf the current setup. If you find yourself running out of mana a lot, try to think more carefully about when it's necessary to use and when it's not.

As a side note, mechanics that increase the value of a certain stat for the specific champion are (generally speaking) quite good for game health. Kog'maw's ult allows him to get significant mileage out of any max mana increases he buys, which from a game design perspective is a really nice advantage over the traditional ammo system.

Your first point has no advantage over the ammo system. Kogmaw still can only use his ult 6 times in succession despite the fact that it's not on an ammo system, and completely empties his mana pool while doing so. Meanwhile, he still can use his ult once in a while as poke, and I am under the impression that Riot doesn't want Kog'maw to use his ult as low-drawback poke.

The ammo system fits exactly your descriptions without forcing you to use literally all of your mana pool to respond to the situation. It discourages you from using it for no reason because it has a (relatively) long recharge time and you want to use it when the scenario best fits. In fact, it is the whole point of an ammo system:

designed to give you ability to use R as many times in quick succession as you think is necessary, while also discouraging you from using it for no reason

And while you can argue that Kog'maw is not limited to a maximum of 6 charges as he would be on an ammo system, with the current iteration of mana ramping, he can only fire a maximum of 5 shots despite the fact that it's not an ammo system. It doesn't matter if you wanted to fire 7 shots because, without max mana bonuses found on items usually NOT bought by ADCs, you run out of mana to be able to ult. It's realistically an ammo system that has the additional drawback of emptying your mana pool.

The point is, Kog'maw still has 3 other abilities to cast, all of which costs mana. A charge system allows him to use ult as many times as he is allowed now, without forcing him to sacrifice the ability to use his other abilities.

Increasing mana gate is acceptable on Kassadin because he has ways to get mana back in his own kit, not to mention that he gets increasing damage for an additional reward for casting in quick sucession. Increasing mana gate is not fine on Kog'maw because he is not expected to buy Essence Reaver, nor does he have mana-regenereation in his own kit. Thus, an ammo system on his ult would be more of a fit for Kog'maw than the current iteration. It is very similar to the skill's expected functions (using it to kill low-hp enemies that flee outside of Kog'maw's attack range) and discourages Kog'maw players to use it as a poke tool more so than the increasing mana gate.

As for your second point: a Frozen Heart allows Kog'maw to fire one additional ult beyond 6 in a short time frame, and still forces him to completely empty his mana pool while doing so. Additionally, Kog'maws usually don't buy something that gives him maximum mana because it's not optimal use of gold given his role.

And ammo systems are not "traditional"; Kog'maw's mana ramp is in the game way earlier than the first introduction of ammo charge systems in league (which is Vi as far as I know), and it's an ancient mechanism that IMHO doesn't fit what Riot wants out of the ability.

His ult could have functioned on 4/5/6 max charges with a recharge time of 18/14/12 and he would be able to shoot off more ults in a teamfight because he can cast more before going OOM, and meanwhile the increased single-shot CD from 8 to 12 at max rank will further discourage Kog'maw from using his ult purely for poke compared to a 8-second mana ramping CD, especially in the early game where the recharge time is longer. We can then keep the mana cost at a constant 40 or 50 for each shot, drastically lowering Kog'maw's mana burden when using his ult more than once in a short time frame.

Aych PiiMar 21, 20161 votes

The first thing you're saying here is only true in a vacuum. My advice- if you're tired of using all your mana, stop spamming it. You can use it much more than six times if you actually let the mana ramp reset. It's purposefully designed so that AD Kog'maw needs to conserve his shots instead of blowing his load all over the map with no regard for anything. It's not a DPS ability. Changing to an ammo system would undermine that. As for the bit about buying more mana, Kog's synergy with mana is a great boon to the playstyle of AP Kog'maw. This allows Riot to balance the ult around the idea that AP Kog should be getting lots of shots whenever he wants, and AD kog needs to make them count; as well as creating a healthy difference in gameplay dynamic between the two builds, which keeps one from being purely more viable than the other at all times.

Unless it was added in a much later patch, which I wouldn't know, I believe Corki was actually the first instance of the ammo charge system. Heimerdinger also has it, though again it's possible that was added in his reworks as I had never actually tried playing him before the one that came with his visual update last year.

TheMinezMar 7, 20162 votes

For people who decide hybrid fiora is a good idea. item 3004 + item 3003 + item 3146

CatastropMar 7, 20161 votes

Dat W damage though.

The DeckownerMar 7, 20162 votes

if she is manaless then fiora jg with infinite q crazy speed farming will show up very quickly.

SpoofghoulMar 7, 201612 votes

you can already do that as jungle item gives more manaregen then fiora can burn through by spamming shit on cooldown

RiviniMar 8, 20162 votes

Vayne

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

invisiblecat1Mar 8, 20161 votes

But she takes 3 hits in order to apply it, and she is really easy to jump on and kill unless you don't buy pinks

RiviniMar 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

But she takes 3 hits in order to apply it, and she is really easy to jump on and kill unless you don't buy pinks

I wasn't aware the subject was only about true damage application. Thought it was about spamming abilities and never having mana issues. Silly me.

DarthSpectrumMar 8, 20161 votes

Her mana costs are actually on par with many of the new or reworked top lane champions such as Poppy , Darius , and Gangplank . Poppy has slightly higher costs on Q and E, but both of these abilities are capable of hitting twice.

None of these champions really struggle with mana in lane. However, they still will go OOM if they spam their full combo (not including ultimate) 2 to 4 times in lane. The effect of these low mana costs is further compounded by the fact that Fiora really only needs Q.

Darius and Poppy typically try to land their full combo as just trying to land a single ability might be unreliable. GP uses Q to farm and harass regularly as well. Fiora on the other hand only needs her Q to harass. She doesn't have to use her other abilities unless she wants to or if she needs to CS under tower.

TL:DR - Fiora's mana costs are average compared to other popular top laners. However, her play style does not require her to cast as many abilities, so appears to never go OOM.

BLU MedicMar 8, 20161 votes

As someone who is fucking awful with mana management, I agree, I tried Fiora and didn't run out of mana once.

Spaceman5pffMar 8, 20161 votes

I used to complain a lot about fiora. I couldn't beat them, so I joined them.

Here is what I learned: -She is a bit TOO strong. Her lategame would be justifiable if her earlygame wasn't so good, and vice versa. -She spends almost no mana harassing, but if she tries to push out the wave / control the lane before getting a hydra, she will go oom VERY quickly. -Her sustained DPS is shit tier unless she gets super lucky vitals / ult. -QSS puts it up her dickhole -mobility beats fiora, she can only reach her true potential reliably vs immobile enemies.

To return to the mana issue: -If you can manipulate the wave more mana-efficiently than her early, you can force her under turret. She has to sped alot of mana to properly cs under turret early, which will SEVERELY gate her ability to fight you the way she wants to. TLDR: PUSH. everything she does draws creep aggro so just retain a creep advantage. Renekton is a pretty great pick I have found, as well as poppy, and riven if you can play her well

BisaknospMar 8, 20161 votes

i think some of her counters are barely played atm and thats why she seems stronger than she is trundle and cho work pretty well against her a good darius can beat her as well i am sure there are other champs not saying she is balanced/op/up just wanted to throw some of my thoughts in here