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Does the game need a new type of CC to deal with mobility?

DrCyanide·Feb 19, 2015·51 votes·4,627 views

Our current counters to mobility are Silences and Roots. There are minor problems with that.

Silences stop mages from being able to cast any spell, preventing them from defending themselves, and wouldn't stop a Kalista from dashing. Roots stop everyone from moving, immobile champions or not.

If these types of CC are delivered instantly, the cry is made "No counterplay!" but if they're not instant then they will hit immobile champions more often.

So what if there was a new type of CC that disabled mobility spells/passives, but still allowed people to walk and cast other spells? Use it on a Ziggs and he can't activate his Satchel Charge. Use it on a Jinx and she slows back down to normal after killing your teammate. Use it on a Zed and he can't dash back out after bashing on your Death Marked face. Use it on an Annie and prevent her from Flash-stunning you.

I think this is the type of CC that could be the counter to the mobility creep. Yes, it would be hard to add to older kits, but reworks happen.

I'd be much more confident in PBE Veigar's E if it had this type of CC slowly expand from the center to fill the cage, hitting the wall when the stun goes up. The CC would also help it feel like an actual cage, not something to just blink out of.

115 Comments

GaminonFeb 20, 201525 votes

I think the better option would be to have CC actually interrupt mobility. Currently the only way to stop a dash is with displacement. If stuns, roots, silences and other hard CC actually stopped mobile champions cold instead of allowing them to complete their dashes/blinks before being applied, it'd probably help balance things out.

As it currently stands, mobile champs can just pop their mobility the moment they see something headed toward them, and even if they get hit they still escape (which has always seemed counterintuitive to me). A change like the one I suggested would only affect mobile champs, wouldn't be overly complicated, and might even be more intuitive than the current situation.

Mandang0Feb 20, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I think the better option would be to have CC actually interrupt mobility. Currently the only way to stop a dash is with displacement. If stuns, roots, silences and other hard CC actually stopped mobile champions cold instead of allowing them to complete their dashes/blinks before being applied, it'd probably help balance things out.

As it currently stands, mobile champs can just pop their mobility the moment they see something headed toward them, and even if they get hit they still escape (which has always seemed counterintuitive to me). A change like the one I suggested would only affect mobile champs, wouldn't be overly complicated, and might even be more intuitive than the current situation.

This would be nice

The SoulforgedFeb 20, 20152 votes

Adding some ministuns to the game wouldn't be bad.

deadlychuckFeb 20, 20151 votes

Actually a lot of the dashes in the game do get interrupted by hard CC or roots. The problem is that almost all of those are now skill shots, meaning that in order to land those the target can't be dashing in the first place. -_- riot talks so much about counter-play but then never gives any for half of the situations in their game.

GaminonFeb 23, 20151 votes

Some might get interrupted, but I think it needs to be a universal thing (with the exception of abilities that explicitly state otherwise, like Malphite ult).

Troy242621Feb 19, 20157 votes

This is just the type of band aid solution that Riot would use rather than admit it was wrong to make 90% of their last 20 champions have a dash.

DrCyanideFeb 19, 20157 votes

Speaking of which, there's a new champion preview: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/champion-preview/wonder-above

Any bets on how much mobility they will have? My guess is it's a support that will have to keep pace with Kalista.

JamnonFeb 20, 201515 votes

Judging from Riot's game plan so far, I'm guessing kalista will have to keep pace with the new support, lol.

Raja ChachkiFeb 20, 20153 votes

LEL

Power and GreedFeb 19, 20157 votes

New CC

Hamstring: Slows enemy movement by X % and prevents any dashes for Y seconds.

TADA!

rinsujoFeb 19, 201510 votes

And they can give it to Talon since he apparently can't find throats anymore!

Tis a nice dayFeb 20, 20157 votes

Rather than a new type of CC, just have a few spells that punish enemies from traveling too far too fast.

Dota's Bloodseeker has Rupture that deals damage based on distance traveled. HoN has an ability that brings an enemy champion back to a target spot after X seconds regardless of distance traveled. In league, we can have something such as a reversed Karma's tether that stuns enemies that break the tether if they go too far away.

There are many other ways to create spells that counteract heavy mobility without being overly oppressive to non-mobility champions.

Kojiro SasakiFeb 20, 20153 votes

Dota has all of the above.

Puck tethers, Kunka's "return to this spot" ability, and Bloodseeker as you mentioned.

MinrogFeb 19, 20154 votes

I voted No. That only makes more hard counters at champion select and you know that eventually they'll just nerf all the characters that are provided with the anti-mobility abilities. Like they are already doing with targeted CC (bye bye Taric, we will miss you). Also, it's a binary interaction and those aren't skill based.

If you were going to do something like this and had your heart set on having a binary counter, you could just make a Ward that shuts down all mobility skills. Even better you could add Flash to that list to really change the game. Because hey it's Ward counterplay...

Either Riot has to repair the basis of the problem or you have to accept that they don't see it as a problem (as you do, and I). I'm on the fence about whether or not they will keep it as is, but if they do I probably won't play much. Having them slap a band-aid fix on it isn't going to do anything.

DrCyanideFeb 19, 201511 votes

I can see both sides.

On the one hand "Mobile champion wanting to charge towards/away from me? CC them" is very binary.

On the other hand, "I would normally just dash in this situation, but that's not available to me right now. How else can I do what I need to?" is far from binary, and might actually turn a binary decision into a more in depth one.

You're probably right about the hard counter champions, but we already have some of those in the game. Veigar and Kassadin are intended as Anti-Mages. Galio and Ramus are intended as Anti-AP and Anti-AD respectively. Is an Anti-Mobile category really so far removed from what's in the game already?

SvennersonFeb 19, 20153 votes

This is actually a really intriguing idea. Upvote my good sir-and-or-maam-and-or-other

DrMarshSwampFeb 19, 20153 votes

So something similar to SMITE's Cripple effect?

Cripple in SMITE is a soft crowd control effect that stops all dashes and leaps (and to my knowledge also stops Combat Blink, which is a teleport), and also prevents someone from using portals created by Janus (a character who can create portals in walls that lets him pass through, similar to Rek'Sais tunnels but they only last a few seconds if not used.)

DrCyanideFeb 19, 20151 votes

Yes, that does sound similar to what I have in mind.

How well does it work in Smite? Does it feel overbearing? Balanced? Do you think it would help League to become a better game or are there too many differences to say?

DrMarshSwampFeb 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yes, that does sound similar to what I have in mind.

How well does it work in Smite? Does it feel overbearing? Balanced? Do you think it would help League to become a better game or are there too many differences to say?

Given that the effect is placed mainly on abilities that you have to aim (even if some of them are AoE stuff) I'd say its actually fairly balanced with how SMITE works.

If it was part of a point-and-click ability I honestly wouldn't know if it would be good for the game or not, as that would depend more on who it would have the effect.

And the effect does still feel balanced as you can Cleanse the effect through the use of some active items.

ReikkenFeb 19, 20153 votes

I think this is an extremely good idea

the suggestion for Veigar's cage too

DrCyanideFeb 19, 20152 votes

FYI, if you think it would destroy a certain champion, it'd be nice if you could state what champion.

Kitten of EvilFeb 19, 20152 votes

I don't honestly think it destroys any champion any more than Teemo/Quinn's Qs destroy specific champions (i.e. all ADCs). The only issue I see is that, due to the nature of mobility in this game, it would have to be a long debuff to actually matter. Let's call it cripple.

Let's say you skillshot cripple Zed for 2 seconds. Okay, he just waits 2 seconds before moving. How is this different from Lux's snare? It's actually less intrusive because he can still walk and attack and cast spells. If on the other hand you want it to be point-and-click, okay, how is it different from Maokai's snare?

In order to truly make a difference, and because it is generally going to be a very weak debuff, it would have to be a long duration or otherwise not take up too much of a champion's power budget. You don't want one of your moves to be dedicated solely to dealing with mobile champions, on the off chance that you have one wasted slot against a tank, or an ADC.

KonidiasFeb 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IbAAeJsy,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-02-19T21:21:13.721+0000)

I don't honestly think it destroys any champion any more than Teemo/Quinn's Qs destroy specific champions (i.e. all ADCs).

People seem to forget that Blind actually blocks ALL auto attacks... so it's pretty effective against almost everyone. Obviously some champs have high damaging spells, but at the same time, if those spells are on cooldown or miss, then all any champ has is autos... and they are all blocked by Blind.

It's a common misconception that Blind is ineffective against mages.

Kitten of EvilFeb 20, 20151 votes

It's less effective, certainly. Depends on the mage, of course. But blinding an Annie isn't going to stop her from dumping Tibbers + Q + W on you.

killd0zerFeb 19, 20151 votes

It would literally destroy Kalista, assuming it's realistically applicable.

Her passive is stupid, but she is balanced and designed around it. Yasuo would be unplayable without his E.

LoLKiruFeb 19, 20156 votes

Important to note Kalista is already getting hit in the near future (according to riot anyway, I think it was meddler who said it)

They'll likely hit her passive because they didn't intend for her to become as mobile as she is lategame with high amounts of attack speed, since it speeds up her normally sluggish auto animation.

Not sure what they could possibly do about that unless they like cap the max amount of attack speed she can have?

Noteworthy that without any attack speed, Kalista's auto animation is slow as molasses, so while she can still dash; it takes her FOREVER to do it.

tooomineFeb 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It would literally destroy Kalista, assuming it's realistically applicable.

Her passive is stupid, but she is balanced and designed around it. Yasuo would be unplayable without his E.

lol. Kallista is balanced. ok.

AuraMaxFeb 19, 20152 votes

This type of cc could wreck Akali. If she can't ult to anyone to get in range or use the ms boost on her w to get in range of her target, then she's basically a sitting duck. But it all depends on how easy it is to land this type of cc and how long it lasts for.

Akali

Kitten of EvilFeb 19, 20151 votes

I would assume that MS buffs wouldn't count as "mobility" skills? Maybe OP means that they count, but I think the biggest culprits in the game currently are dashes and flashes.

DrCyanideFeb 19, 20151 votes

My original post did say that it knocked out movespeed buffs (see Jinx), but you are correct in saying flashes and dashses are the worst problems. Since we're in the theoretical brainstorming, I could see move speed boosts being included or omitted.

Would Akali be in a better spot if it didn't stop the move speed boost?

Kitten of EvilFeb 20, 20152 votes

I would think so, but more importantly I don't think MS boosts are really the problem, because snares are very effective at stopping those currently. Also they're on a class of champions that aren't quite as powerful right now -- melee bruisers. Udyr's chasing Lux through the jungle? Fire your Q back at him. If he jukes, he has earned the right to eat your face, if you stop him, you've earned the escape. The bigger problem is people like Nidalee and Lee Sin who treat walls like they're nothing.

KidKaiserFeb 19, 20152 votes

touching on your Veigar E. Riot can make it so his cage slowly gets smaller. so the enemy team is forced to react with a flash or an escape, instead of just walking around in the center with their outside teammates dishing out damage cuz Veigar missed his stun.

which would be practically 95% of the time down with the .75s delay

VerandureFeb 20, 20152 votes

Why not a summoner spell?

Counters Flash which is taken in 100% of games; more often than not 10 times per game.

Leaves it open for every champion in the game

Has drawbacks by removing either an offensive or defensive spell, giving more strategic depth to those skills.

Grand ElevenFeb 20, 20152 votes

Yes, but knowing Riot, this new CC will be given to the next ADC.

aaronconlinFeb 20, 20152 votes

I think slows should affect dashes, not the distance but the time it takes to cover the distance. Also, knock ups should be affected by tenacity.

VahlenFeb 20, 20152 votes

DOTA 2 has that.........in general that seems like the game most ppl are wanting LoL to become. That is ironic because so many LoL kids hate on that game. LoL is a walking display of marketing success and developer ineptitude.

ScramrailFeb 20, 20152 votes

What if you made a debuff that dealt damage to the person its applied to based on the distance they travel? Where basically if youre just walking normally you don't take much damage, but if you try to Akali ult/Kass ult, you take a huge chunk of damage or something like that. And Kalista would take numerous smallish chunks of damage while she's hopping around like a maniac?

DehornFeb 20, 20152 votes

just add abilities or items that do damage or drain mana when the target moves. and if theyre oom or dont use mana, x happens.

MogarlFeb 20, 20152 votes

For a while now I've thought the idea of someone dashing out of Viktor 's Gravity field stunning them for depending on how many stacks they have (.5-1 seconds ultimately as 3 stacks would stun) would be a cool addition to a strictly CC ability.Thinking along these lines adding similar things to CC only abilities would be kind of neat, perhaps dashing into Singed 's glue roots you small bits like that would help put mobility in a better spot.

Overall however I'm against such new CC being aimed at move-speed buffs partially because those are already countered by slows, and partially because except for running away, move speed still has the weaknesses of walking normally in that everyone can still see where you're going.

DoFrFeb 20, 20152 votes

how about one that inflects silence on mobility spells? and also applies slows (this way you can make the slow work on mobility champs)

or just straight up return silence, it was a good cc

balbraakselFeb 20, 20152 votes

A CC that'll cripple champions? :)

Kitten of EvilFeb 19, 20151 votes

It's the mobility equivalent of blind. I like it. But I also like blind, so maybe that's not the best comparison.

Mega Annie XFeb 19, 20153 votes

what we need is horribly OP mechanics. This game has gotten mechanics that are out of this world overpowered yet we lack all the counters that dota offered.

Remember when the bloodseekers ult was anti=fun. Well kalista dashing on EVERY SINGLE AUTO ATTACK is antifun and maybe a little bleeding out would fix that issue.

Knight SoIaire Feb 19, 20151 votes

actualy cc is the counter to mobility mobility increases your capability to change your champions position cc recuces that capability

the problem is when both are on the same kit, that person usualy turns out to have a clear adwantage over champions who lack those tools

DrCyanideFeb 19, 20155 votes

CC is the counter to everything. Silence is the counter to mages, blind is the counter to auto-attack reliant champions, roots are the counter to melees, and stuns and knockups trump all.

Mobility increases your ability to position away from the CC, thus making it less likely you'll be CCed as opposed to an immobile champion. It's like artificial Tenacity in that regard. If you have enough mobility, you get to completely ignore one type of CC, Slows.

Only CC without counterplay hits the immobile and mobile champions equally, and that's being removed. The idea I'm proposing could be as instant as Soraka's silence, but have just as much counterplay.

I agree that both CC and Mobility in the same kit is a problem.

JamnonFeb 19, 20151 votes

Mobility creep is why knockups are so strong right now.

DrCyanideFeb 19, 20153 votes

Yasuo is the reason knockups are so strong right now. Every champion released since him has one. Riot's own explaination is that "knockups feel better" and "Knockups can't be shortened, making it easier to balance around" and similar.

To my knowledge, Riot hasn't mentioned Knockups being a counter to mobility.

Yordle XayahFeb 19, 20151 votes

So what if there was a new type of CC that disabled mobility spells/passives, but still allowed people to walk and cast other spells?

You mean Silence?

ReikkenFeb 19, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miss Inaba,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IbAAeJsy,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-02-19T23:34:55.261+0000)

So what if there was a new type of CC that disabled mobility spells/passives, but still allowed people to walk and cast other spells?

You mean Silence?

OH REALLY? Silence now allows the casting of spells? Try reading more carefully before being condescending.

Yordle XayahFeb 19, 20152 votes

http://cdn.meme.am/images/300x/68999.jpg

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