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I'm worried about Ivern and Kindred

Naalith··16 votes·1,942 views

So Ivern and Kindred are two of my favorite champions to play in the game. Not only do they plug team comp issues if my friends want to do some kill lane meme stuff and not throw the entire game in doing so, but they are both one of a kind in their designs. Ivern is an incredible support with his shield, root+dash, Daisy knockups, and can do tons of great things with bush placements and jungle paths no other champion can. Kindred is an amazing bounty hunter incorporated into the lore in such a seamless way it's kind of commendable and despite the mini rework gutting lots of unique aspects of the kit, they still have a very unique spot in the game and with the new runes they feel pretty good to play again. The support and ADC jungler built that way from the ground up are one of a kind in the game.

The problem is both of these champions have an extreme over-reliance on bottom lane's items, and it's finally starting to look like Riot is going to do something about people's understandable hatred of how much bottom lane warps the game right now. There basically is no Ivern without support items and Kindred, while they used to be able to do Devourer, Frozen Mallet, Black Cleaver and several other creative builds have been relegated to being a Zeal + IE standard ADC after the rework.

All that I ask is that Riot please consider these champions as well as some other oddballs when the bottom lane sledgehammer finally drops. They have seen some insane ups and downs but have been kinda meh from a balance standpoint for a while. While I do think they could both use some buffs anyways, I have no doubt they will need a big boost depending on how much the bottom lane items are going to be changed. Just something to keep in mind, I sometimes think people forget these champions exist and I don't want to see them be overlooked just because they are extremely niche.

20 Comments

Morticianjohn4 votes

Playing Ivern feels really bad lately. I like to play him but almost never win when I play Ivern. He is probably my lowest win rate jungle champion.

option paralysis4 votes

sorry dude but when both of them are good, they're fuckin' cancer to play against. kindred with her stacks where you just die in couple hits and her undying ult... and ivern with his E spam.

ninjaroxas6 votes

She hasn't been that strong since her mini rework from my knowledge though

DeusVult1 votes

No but her overall design isnt that great IMO

If she gets fed she can kill anything because she has an ADCs kit, tons of free damage from her passive marks and can deny the enemy team trying to burst her with her ult (the usual strategy to counter a fed ADC)

If she falls behind she is useless as she wont get stacks and the jungle doesnt give enough gold for her itemization

The Yetii Rider1 votes

That's no excuse to make her strong again.

She should stay weak. Her Q can't miss, her E is a point and click, and her W is auto damage in an area with basically no ramp up time. Kindred does not allow any micro counterplay, her counterplay is largely macro in nature, which is why she's absolutely toxic at the pro level where everyone's macro is phenomenal and it comes down to how well you can manage your micro. If everyone else can miss Kindred but Kindred can't miss anyone, then she's way too strong in the pro scene.

ninjaroxas1 votes

I would like to say her Q spreads between all targets, her e needs her to auto you 3 times and most of its damage is missing health, and her w can only attack 1 target at a time and each attack has a delay.

I'm not stateing my opinion on her balance, just pointing out the facts

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Her Q spreads between all targets if there are multiple targets. If you are fighting with the enemy jungler in melee, they all hit him.

Her E does require her to auto 3 times. It also applies a massive slow to prevent people from escaping, and autos cannot miss.

Her W is slow, yes. And it only attacks one target at a time. This is not the issue.

A jungler's strength is PURELY in the early game. Riot has decimated late game scaling junglers, they no longer exist. Kindred's efficiency against mutliple targets is completely irrelevant to her power as a jungler. Her strength as a duelist is ridiculous and allows for very little counterplay, on top of her being ranged which is already an advantage.

Arakadia1 votes

There are areas of their kit to buff besides Kindred marks and Ivern shield.

SociaI Justice3 votes

your 2 favourite champions happen to be the most toxic abominations this game has ever come across? interesting.

Fear the Kayn2 votes

Yea Kindred needs a couple changes IMO:

  1. make her stacks matter

  2. remove the EXTREME amount of counterplay with her marked camps appearing for enemies. The counter to Kindred should be proper vision of your jungle, not just looking at the map and saying 'yup, she'll be right there'

Spârky2 votes

But their stacks do matter... A lot. That's their design problem with kindred. They are totally a feast or famine champ. Either you got a lot of stacks and can carry or the enemy jungler is smart and denies you those stacks and then you do actually nothing the rest of the game.

Fear the Kayn1 votes

Once you get 4 stacks the effect of the stacks drops off dramatically. It should not decrease at all.

Spârky1 votes

I disagree. I think the stacks shouldn't be the focus point of kindred. It should be a part of their identity and be there but take power from the stacks and put more in the rest of their kit. This then solves the problem of them being a feast or famine champion because I don't think the counterplay should be to prevent kindred from getting their stacks. It should just be an extra thing that helps sort of like rengar.

Killer of Night91 votes

Actually ivern passive take too long to trigger while other jungler has alredy end their 1st clear, also with the nerf to solari he only get 1 shield (his E) + redemption. The most issue that i found is the shield duration (kinda 2 second) wich fell useless for a battle shield like janna or lulu (5s duration). Instead of nunu that's he.s tanky ivern is a squishi wich mean that a kha'zix will 1v1 him with only Q+Aa(passive proc) on lv 5-6.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Perhaps they could increase the duration to 5 seconds and have the damage blast go off at 2.5 seconds?

Targon1 votes

Kindred needs some serious work to make her playable again. The repeated nerfs to her in season 6 (Q CD increase, heal removal, R placement removal, base armor nerf, etc...) and the nerfs/changes to some of her old core items: item 1419 item 3071 item 3153 item 3022 item 3085 over the last two seasons have put her in such a bad spot. Kindred used to be a dominant early game champion and now she's perhaps one of the weakest early game champions that awkwardly transitions into mediocre at best in the mid/late games provided that she is able to scrap through the early game while stacking her passive. She will need a lot of changes to be playable again.

º Kindred º1 votes

i am still buying on kindred item 1412 item 3142 item 3047 item 3071 item 3085 (last optional). Imo the adc build sucks because its just waaaay too agressive. i like to build them more balanced, with success.

PapaGreg211 votes

Ivern has so many issues right now. His items are bad. He has no runes that fit him well. His w seems like a fun and unique spell but it ends up functioning as a bad ability. Daisy is so bugged that she is guaranteed to mess up at least one fight for you every game minimum. They should really buff his w so that his autoattacks are more empowered. It would give him greater utility for objectives

Tuition Fee1 votes

Personally, I feel that Kindred isn't that weak. Maybe a bit, but on a scale from 1-10, with 10 being OP RITO I QUIT AND DELETE GAME and 1 being WHY IS THIS EVEN A CHAMP, she'd probably be sitting at about 4 ish.

Meanwhile, Ivern on the other hand, is wayyyyyyyyy too weak. On release, he was pretty cancerous, but now, he's hardly ever viable. First of all, an early game invade can be pretty disastrous for him. He doesn't really have many options to steal the buff from the enemy, considering his passive, and smite doesn't do anything at all, unless he's willing to sit in the middle of enemy attacks for two seconds. After that invade, you really have no way of getting the enemy jungler out of your jungle, as they are a level ahead, and lets face it, your laners are not going to be guarding your jungle for the first half of the game. Even without an invade, most junglers can easily murder him, especially the assassins early on in the game. Stealing farm is a piece of cake for them, especially in lower elos, where no one bothers to ward, which often also results in a bonus kill for enemy junglers.

So if Ivern isn't a viable jungler, could he be a good support? His passive is absolutely useless until level five, and even then, do you have enough time to collect the buffs? Also, stealing enemy camps will be insanely difficult, especially if you don't have smite. His q, while useful, has a long cd and a relatively short root. Definitely outclassed by champs like Morg, and even Lux support. His bushes can easily be used by the enemy as well, making it a double-edged sword. Also, you won't do much in those bushes, because if the enemy has half the IQ of a toddler, they will see you running into the bush and realize you are in there. Maybe you can waste a few enemy wards, but in the end, it just makes it easier for them to pin down your location, if you aren't in the two side bushes or in lane, and there's a random patch of grass in the middle of the lane. His shield has too high of a cd and offers almost no protection in the first few minutes, and is easily outclassed by shields such as Janna's or Karma's. His ult is decent, but that's assuming you've actually survived the initial pre-level six laning phase, and that you can live long enough for it to be as effective as other support ults, which function instantaneously.

BigusDichus1 votes

I just picked her up, didn't read anything about her being weak, and have been doing fine. I lose games if I make too many mistakes, if I outplay enemy jungler I usually win. Kindred makes you learn jungle really quick, you have to pay attention to enemies whereabouts, its fun playing mind games with jungler too. warding a lot helps kindred obv, so again learning to play better. It teaches you a lot of macro. And about timing, I know even if they invade not to be too worried, as say they invade my red on top, they will go blue on their side after, and I will do there red. basics of jungling etc.

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