What exactly did Sona gain from runes?

Need Gold 4 Tent·Nov 12, 2017·4 votes·1,701 views

Just out of curiosity as to what Riot meant when they nerfed her in the patch notes. I can only think of Klepto and Aery working on her, which work just as well on every other champ that use them.

25 Comments

Pika310Nov 12, 20175 votes

You said it yourself. Sona doesn't gain anything from runes that literally every other support benefits from just as well. The problem is that Sona hasn't had a nerf all season and according to Meddler, she's not allowed to go a full season without nerfs.

With the confusion of Masteries Reworked and the expected wr spike that inevitably came from new tools, Meddler saw an opportunity to fabricate lies as an excuse for him to personally nerf her. Notice how Meddler didn't even wait until the next patch, because he knew Sona's wr would fall back down to normal if he'd waited.

By nerfing her pre-emptively to manipulate herd mentality, he feeds the sheeple misnomer that she's somehow "OP."

HaIlMonitorNov 12, 20172 votes

It could simply just be she was the second strongest to Janna forever, with the new runes they added one thing... DAMAGE. Janna doesn't have much of that so it helped Sona way more. (Ironically Janna is still 5th highest winning support at 51.8% globally still though)

Pika310Nov 12, 20173 votes

Yup, second strongest. 2nd-most picked at worlds. 2nd-best performance at worlds. Wait a second...

Yup, Deathfire Touch didn't exist. Thunderlord's Decree didn't exist. Wait another second...

HaIlMonitorNov 12, 20171 votes

Soloque /= worlds wtf?

AzadetheNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It could simply just be she was the second strongest to Janna forever, with the new runes they added one thing... DAMAGE. Janna doesn't have much of that so it helped Sona way more. (Ironically Janna is still 5th highest winning support at 51.8% globally still though)

That's because when paired with a twitch for move speed and damage or a Jhin for damage, there's no lane that really trades them; Janna = twitch pentas. Janna = +300 AD on Jhin late game, and an easy + 30 AD at level 1, and Jhin's reload time isn't really all that long, so it lays on brutal punishment to add that damage (yes; jhin's AD bonus from Janna is multiplied by his crit rate/attack speed/etc).

Also, Janna now having auto attack damage added to herself is a new bonus, and supplements for the fact she used to do no damage. Most Jannas that were doing 6k damage are now doing 13k. It more than tips the scales for her nerfs.

InfernapeNov 12, 20173 votes

Or it could be because her win rate was near 60%... again.

Pika310Nov 12, 20174 votes

Amumu's win rate was near 60% for over 3 years straight. Nobody called him "OP" and he never received nerfs. On the contrary, he received buffs. While sitting near 60%. It's as if winrate doesn't equal strength! gasp

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/data-and-champion-balance-part-1

AnonagonNov 12, 20172 votes

Its pretty regular to see unpopular but strong champions sit at near 55% winrates for a while (see: Heimer), and in those cases, yeah, winrate doesn't exactly correlate to strength, but Sona right now is a different situation:

She has a 57% winrate. It may not seem like much more, but that's a massive difference because of the way winrates are basically a bell curve.

She also is very popular. She's being played in 12% of games as compared to the less than 2% than champs like Amumu and Heimer had when they had their highest winrates.

The high playrate makes it so that Sona's winrate is actually representative of her power in a way that Amumu's at the time wasn't.

Pika310Nov 12, 20172 votes

The problem with your logic is still this:

We're in the FUCKING PRESEASON. There's literally ZERO FUCKING REASON to make **ANY **mid-patch changes that aren't obviously bug fixes or real non-gameplay issues.

So then **WHY **did Meddler gut her after only 3 days, rather than waiting for the next patch? Every sheeple wants to cry "oh boo hoo, winrates, pickrates" and it'd been **LESS **than 72 hours. Perhaps, PERHAPS, Meddler **KNOWS **that her winrate would nose-dive if given over a week of playtime. **MEDDLER **is the one with access to Rito's "secret data," notice how Rito **REFUSED **to give more than a super-fucking ambiguous reason as to **WHY **they were doing so. PERHAPS, Meddler intentionally jumped at the hype to fulfill his own personal agenda. The man has already stated on no less than 3 separate occasions that he hates Sona and wants her deleted from the game.

You cannot tell me that this doesn't stink of foul play by Rito.

#RevertPatch413

AnonagonNov 12, 20172 votes

Get you tinfoil hat "Riot is Nazi and Sona is jewish" conspiracy theory out of here.

There's a reason to do a mid-patch update - a patch is a patch. People are going to play the game on this patch for a significant period of time, and its not okay to leave busted shit in a patch just because that patch isn't going to have serious competitive play on it.

Sona was busted. She's still strong post-hotfix. They weren't that major of nerfs. This does not in any way stink of foul play by Riot. Stop being entitled.

InfernapeNov 12, 20171 votes

The whole point is Riot explicitly stated that they will micropatch any overperforming champions/runes over the preseason. It's one of the reasons why preseason 2018 is so long compared to last year (that and the scope of the game's updates). They're going to constantly micropatch the game over the next month or so.

Pika310Nov 12, 20172 votes

...and when they don't, I'll be here to say, "I told you so," but I won't. Because I'm already predicting that they won't. I'm predicting this will be an isolated situation reserved just for Sona.

Remember my words.

FluffySoxOfDoomNov 12, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Or it could be because her win rate was near 60%... again.

Just because a champion's win rate is high does not mean they're over powered or are in need of nerfs ie Sona lol..

InfernapeNov 12, 20171 votes

I should've been more clear. Sona's win rate combined with her high pick rate across pretty much every tier, is an indicator that she's somewhat out of line. If Sona was unpopular and it was only her mains that played her (like Amumu or Heimer or even Udyr) she probably wouldn't have got changes.

Need Gold 4 TentNov 12, 20174 votes

{quoted}

I should've been more clear. Sona's win rate combined with her high pick rate across pretty much every tier, is an indicator that she's somewhat out of line. If Sona was unpopular and it was only her mains that played her (like Amumu or Heimer or even Udyr) she probably wouldn't have got changes.

If the data includes last season, the changes are way too big for that to be relevant in the preseason. If it's data from the preseason alone, it's probably too soon, and it could be that people are still messing around with runes which makes win rates very inaccurate. I'm not even a Sona main, and I hate her along with all the other supports for being cucks but the preemptive nerf seemed a bit off.

SohleksNov 12, 20174 votes

It's not so much runes just everyone is very squishy without old rune resistances so it pushed her targeted poke over the line so your average adc player walking to lane with one red potion and no regen masteries gets rekt

The game is more fun than before imo, if broke. But just watch they will tone overall damage back a bit in like a month and leave Sona nerfed.

Pika310Nov 12, 20173 votes

As much as I hate to admit it, you're right. MOSTLY.

I've said for years, ever since patch 4.13 went Live, that the only way Sona can deal damage in-lane is if the enemy doesn't take MR runes. Whelp, runes don't exist anymore... Still, that doesn't miraculously make Sona a problem, 90% of the support cast still outdamages her, because (surprise surprise,) your enemy being squishier benefits **ALL **supports, not just Sona.

As for regen mastery, 2nd Wind exists. So I can only assume the sheeple crying "Sona OP" probably aren't taking 2nd Wind, when they should be. They probably aren't taking Doran's Shield against Aery, when they should be. They're probably the people I see starting Long Sword + nothing, cause they want to save the 150 gold to buy an item sooner and want to start a component, rather than "throwing away" gold on a Doran's Blade.

The nail that you hit dead on the head: once Masteries Reforged finally get toned down, Rito will **REFUSE **to revert the Sona nerfs and will leave her overnerfed. This isn't even an anti-Sona thing, Rito has just blatantly refused to revert **ANY **unnecessary nerfs to **ANY **champions that have been made preemptively to fixing a problem. We saw it with Lucian, Mord, Kog, Sej and countless other cases. Rito blatantly double-nerfs champions, in spite of their false claims that they attempt to "avoid" doing so.

PhDs NutsNov 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

90% of the support cast still outdamages her

lol?

Colton147Nov 12, 20173 votes

Talon and Malzahar have had winrates the past few patches...

Better nerf Sona into non-existence. :/

Mysticman89Nov 12, 20172 votes

Also strong with guardian.

Suspect some of it is just that she has synergy with a lot of runes so theres not that many sona players out there with 'wrong' runes, while many other supports have fewer options and people might be taking 'wrong' ones. Since it's week 1 preseason and people are basically trying everything and no one actually knows 'right' from 'wrong', it may be that just picking runes at random favours sona.

On top of the runes aspect, less early mr in the bot lane makes it a scary place versus mage supports down there, and not only does sona do decent poke damage, it's not even in the form of a skill shot so people can't dodge her poke.

Crawford881Nov 13, 20172 votes

Sona's only damaging abilities are her Q and her R, so she had to hit an auto+Q+auto in order to proc thunderlords before level 6. The extra damage on her auto was also a big component of her Q, and if she didn't follow her q with an auto, her poke could be outsustained by Doran's Blade+Warlord's Bloodlust. Her auto has a lower range than her Q, and she also has to stay in range long enough for the auto animation, which gives opponents a chance to damage her, or CC her. With Aery or Meteor and scorch, she can poke with the Q and stay pretty safe while still doing meaningful damage.

A Q+Auto+Meteor+Scorch will take an ADC down almost half their health at level 1.

Pika310Nov 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

A Q+Auto+Meteor+Scorch will take an ADC down almost half their health at level 1.

Once again, I have to step in and mathematically disprove another lie... As I already proved yesterday, Sona's initial 7.22 full "burst" combo at level 1 is only 245 damage:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/MOpP0Izc-sona-nerfs?comment=00040000

We'll throw in Scorch for +30, then add in -4 for the base AD gutting for a new grand total of 271 damage before magic resistance. At 30 magic resistance, a champion gains 23% damage reduction. 271 raw damage x 0.77 effective damage = 208 ACTUAL DAMAGE

Once again, the lowst base HP on an ADC is Caitlyn at 475 HP and then another +80 from Doran's for 555 starting HP. 208 damage / 555 max hp = 63% remaining HP

Sona's full "burst" at level 1 does BARELY more than a single THIRD of the SQUISHIEST ADC's HP. I realize the word "almost" is relative to opinion and open to interpretation. However, in my book, a deficit of 13% is pretty far from "almost."

AzadetheNov 12, 20171 votes

She can gain taste of Blood and ravenous hunger and max stack it quickly to add to her self sustain...... A Sona that is hard to back line and 1 shot is a good Sona. She can also gain supplementary move speed and AP (Sorcery tree).

I'd say she's doing pretty well on the RIGHT BUILD IN THE RIGHT HANDS.

if you want to be total troll, you can always burst turrets with Sona by going Resolve secondary tree with Revitalize and Demolish (will enable one screw up from the opposing team to literally lose lane in 1 death if you and your adc push turret and siege it Couples especially well with a sightstone.... for more HP siege damage). That's something she didn't have before...... Demolish + Lich bane almost guarantees a 2 hit turret drop late game too.

QuephaNov 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Need Gold 4 Tent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IK2dgZ5I,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-12T05:43:52.122+0000)

which work just as well on every other champ that use them.

Aery is a little bit better on her than most other champions. Sona has just about the best targeted harass spell in the early game in terms of range + cooldown + mana cost, giving her the most reliable way to constantly proc Aery and reapply its damage over and over again.

Scorch is also essential. At level 1 it deals more damage than Aery, which is absurd for a regular rune.

NaqelNov 13, 20171 votes

Sona gained a lot of reliability out of runes reforged.

Where as previously you had to devote yourself to becoming truly explosive in damage, the general lack (and under-appreciation) of viable defensive options means that her amazing poke and the ability to negate counter poke allows her to whittle you down much sooner.

On the flip, she is now countered even harder than ever by all in's, but those are hard to find success with when, as mentioned, there isn't really much options for all in champions to survive going in early, and being constantly harrased significantly delays the moment they are able to bounce back.