The Mindset Behind Zoe and Jayce

TitanAnteus··2 votes·841 views

I feel like Riot believes that a champion is allowed to do sufficient enough damage if there's enough prepwork put in before doing the damage.

For Zoe she needs to land her E and then land a long distance Q.

I took the champ into practice tool to compare her damage with other champions and right now I believe, her E, Q combo's damage is too high. If you're playing Ahri (baseline expectation for a midlaner) , a similar champ in that your combo is E,Q,W. You will not do nearly as much damage as an early Zoe. Even if Zoe doesn't use the full range of her Q. She does quite a lot of damage with similar preparation work, and by quite a lot, I mean more than similar midlaners. Zoe's E is OBJECTIVELY better than Ahri's as well, so if you factor that into the condition you can see the power imbalance.

I honestly think the best way to balance her, would be to just reduce her Q damage by a bit, and the time her E's sleep last(at least .8 seconds shorter). It's much too long right now. If it was a snare like Morg's it'd make sense for its length, but it's basically a stun that's not very hard to land and offers bonus damage on wakeup hit. I know you want to give time for the Zoe to actually setup for the Q to land, but the threshold is quite too long.

It's the same with Jayce. Yes the actual skill-shot is long, and you need to have your field active, two conditions, but the actual damage output is too high for that. A similar champion with high range like Nidalee can't even hope to match a Jayce empowered Q shot. In fact, I believe Jayce's empowered Q does more than a Jinx ult(at lower range)

I feel like the mindset in and of itself isn't bad. Skills that require setup should do more damage. That's a given. But the amount of damage given to these setup oriented champs might be a little too high.

10 Comments

LadyRenly2 votes

Yeah, sure, Ahri won't do as much damage as the Zoe, but Ahris damage is a lot harder to block; W is guaranteed damage, and her Q is way more forgiving. I don't know why we're comparing a generalist to a pick mage

I think her damage is completely fine. Tweak the E to be less oppressive, and possibly touch the W too. her Q is not the problem.

Ahris2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, sure, Ahri won't do as much damage as the Zoe, but Ahris damage is a lot harder to block; W is guaranteed damage, and her Q is way more forgiving. I don't know why we're comparing a generalist to a pick mage

I think her damage is completely fine. Tweak the E to be less oppressive, and possibly touch the W too. her Q is not the problem.

Ahri's W is weaker base damage than Zoe's W. Zoe's W is also guaranteed damage.

Zoe also has lichbane passive, guanrateed damage.

Zoe's Q does more damage and can go further than Ahri's Q, and has less cd at max rank.

Zoe's E is EVEN MORE forgiving than Ahri's charm and it has double the base damage and true damage as well.

LadyRenly2 votes

{quoted}

Ahri's W is weaker base damage than Zoe's W. Zoe's W is also guaranteed damage.

Zoe also has lichbane passive, guanrateed damage.

Zoe's Q does more damage and can go further than Ahri's Q, and has less cd at max rank.

Zoe's E is EVEN MORE forgiving than Ahri's charm and it has double the base damage and true damage as well.

Zoes W doesnt do any damage though? Ahri can build Lichbane as well. I don't know why we're really discussing Ahri at all tbh

Ahris2 votes

{quoted}

Zoes W doesnt do any damage though? Ahri can build Lichbane as well. I don't know why we're really discussing Ahri at all tbh

You started talking about ahri.

Zoe has Lichbane passive, ahri doesnt have lichbane passive. It is guaranteed damage for Zoe.

W does more damage than ahri's base damage, ahri's W is weaker than Zoe,s W in terms of base damage.

The damage you see on Zoe's W is as strong as Ahri's W. How can you say Ahri's W is strong while Zoe's W damage is weak? Doesnt even make sense.

Psyrix1 votes

[deleted]

Ahris2 votes

{quoted}

You were the one that brought up Ahri.... which you do pretty much anytime you comment on a post. (unless you honestly haven't realized that).

One can argue Ahri's W is stronger due to the upfront damage it does on the first orb (140 +30% AP at max) Meanwhile Zoe's W will only do 83 + 13% dmg on the first orb. in the end if all the orbs hit one target they in effect have the same damage (Zoe and Ahri). The thing that seperates them however, is that Ahri's W is way more consistent than Zoe's. It becomes a 5 second CD at max rank (9 at rank 1) While Zoe's can go more than 30+ seconds without access, (that's just factoring the RNG of the appearance of the bubbles, not counting whether she gets the last hit.) In effect Ahri has more access to her orbs.

Ahri has her own passive, one that gives her spell vamp (i.e. sustain) a guaranteed sustain at that too, which zoe lacks.

The way the two are played is also functionally different.

Zoe's W can activate more tha 5 times in less than 10 sec.

Zoe's W at max does 250 base compared to ahri's 224 base. This is huge difference.

Edit: Also the post i commented on mentioned:

"Yeah, sure, Ahri won't do as much damage as the Zoe, but Ahris damage is a lot harder to block; W is guaranteed damage, and her Q is way more forgiving. I don't know why we're comparing a generalist to a pick mage"

I commented on that. Did you even read what i was commenting to?

TitanAnteus2 votes

But her W does do damage?

TitanAnteus2 votes

I'm comparing them because they're somewhat similar.

Zoe's W also causes 3 orbs to appear around her and targets the nearest enemy. Her E is also CC Her Q is also a damaging skillshot.

Obviously there's more to it than that, but generally they have a lot in common.

I won't deny that Ahri's Q is more forgiving, and I'm not arguing against the fact that Zoe's Q should in fact do more damage. Just not SO much more.

Whether or not you agree that the Q is an issue though, I'm glad we both agree on the E.

Ahris1 votes

Zoes q w e are all MUCH better than Ahri's Q W E. Ultimate can be argued for whichever to be better.

Zoe's ulti help make her burst consistent and not worry about ulti going on cd and being useless until it is up. It is also essentially 2 ahri dashes, one in and one for going out.

Ahri's ulti is better for repositioning and for safety.

Zoe has better Q W E and equally as good ulti, seems pretty fair.

I do think Ahri needs buff.

TitanAnteus2 votes

I don't think Ahri needs a buff. I feel like she's a good baseline for where other midlane mages should be in terms of power.

I also think that objectively right now Zoe is superior in terms of raw power.

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