Can we get a Katarina Rework

TitanAnteus·Jan 19, 2019·5 votes·2,749 views

Her playstyle's really feast or famine. She's a melee champion with no real defensive options who's weak to CC that gets played mid. Other champions like Akali do what she does better, so her identity as a champion's in risk, and the twin blades motif of her character isn't capitalized on in her gameplay. Her kit doesn't work well in a team-orientated environment either so picking her is actually not fun for the rest of the team.

Give her to CertainlyT. I love his take on Akali and Mordekaiser. I think he'd be able to find a really fun playstyle for her that re-establishes her identity as a badass swordswomen that focus on speed over power.

I'm probably gonna get downvoted for saying what I said about CertainlyT anyway, so I'll add this. Morde doesn't need a rework as much as quite a few champs. I really hope you guys put off the morde rework to do the other champs first. I personally think Katarina is one of the champs that needs more attention then Morde.

27 Comments

MíelláJan 19, 20194 votes

I'll have to disagree with everything.

Her playstyle's really feast or famine. She's a melee champion with no real defensive options who's weak to CC that gets played mid.

First of all, she's an assassin and not a bruiser. Assassins need to have a high risk - high reward playstyle or we get champions like Akali. They're made to deal tons of damage but you need to use your brain to do it in the most efficent way. If you take the high risk part away, she will be another broken champion.

She gets played mid, cuz that's where she works best. You can play her in any role if you want to. Heck I played her in any role. She works just fine in all of them but is the best in mid/top.

Other champions like Akali do what she does better

Champs like Akali do it better than her, because champs like Akali are arguably broken.

Her kit doesn't work well in a team-orientated environment either so picking her is actually not fun for the rest of the team.

That's because she still is an assassin. Their job isn't to be a god in teamfights (which Katarina can be) but to kill the most important members of the enemy team and get out again. Katarina does an excellent job at that.

Give her to CertainlyT. I love his take on Akali and Mordekaiser. I think he'd be able to find a really fun playstyle for her that re-establishes her identity as a >badass swordswomen that focus on speed over power.

Don't give it to CertainlyT but to a guy who understands who Kata is. Kata isn't a "badass swordwoman which focuses on speed rather than power", but an assassin that is focusing on the most effective way to kill people. She is a heavily mobile and agile champ. She doesn't use sword, but daggers. It suits her character perfectly, because she focuses on being agile.

Give it to CT and she will be the next Akali, Kalista or w/e hard to balance champ exists made by him.

I personally think Katarina is one of the champs that needs more attention then Morde.

I personally think that Kata doesn't need more attention than Morde. She is in a good spot and the quality of life buff that she got was exactly what she needed. She felt way too clunky after the nerfs she received. Morde needs to get attention, because he is 1). outdated and 2). has way too many bugs. If he gets a rework, it will be a model update for one and two, it will be like the Nunu rework, where the essence is kept but he gets some stuff that makes him more satisfying to play.

TitanAnteusJan 19, 20191 votes

Other assassins still work well in team environments. Rengar is actually a good team player if played right. Kha'zix and Talon as well. Talon falls off late so he can't do much with the team though.

but to kill the most important members of the enemy team and get out again. Katarina does an excellent job at that.

I don't agree with this statement. Unlike other assassins she can't really slow the enemy on her own and her daggers have huge tells as she require setup for her combos to work unlike other assassins as well.

I mean, I won't deny that morde should get reworked cause of all the bugs alone. Just that he isn't THAT bad in comparison to alot of other champs.

On a side note, I would also argue that Akali is not a broken champ but that's off-topic. Also daggers are swords :P

MíelláJan 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Other assassins still work well in team environments. Rengar is actually a good team player if played right. Kha'zix and Talon as well. Talon falls off late so he can't do much with the team though. Katarina does an excellent job at that.

I don't agree with this statement. Unlike other assassins she can't really slow the enemy on her own and her daggers have huge tells as she require setup for her combos to work unlike other assassins as well.

I mean, I won't deny that morde should get reworked cause of all the bugs alone. Just that he isn't THAT bad in comparison to alot of other champs.

On a side note, I would also argue that Akali is not a broken champ but that's off-topic. Also daggers are swords :P

Daggers are swords but not every sword is a dagger. I would rather get specific in that note. There are enough ways for Kata to play around that set up you need to make. That's why I said:

but you need to use your brain to do it in the most efficent way.

I'd say that Kha and Rengar are no diffrent from Kata. They can be useful in teamfights, but so does Kata and every assassin. They do the same thing Kata does.

TitanAnteusJan 19, 20191 votes

I disagree as Kha's stealth makes his team presence felt more strongly during ganks. In fact, both Kha and Rengar can jungle so they have abilities that innately help them with giving them a stronger team presence then Kat.

PsyrixJan 19, 20191 votes

Erm... I think this is more of a “you” problem than a Kata problem. Her rework made her harder to play, but also gave her much more power when played correctly. A good Katarina is frankly oppressive af and scary to play against. Moreso than most other assassins because most of her damage is aoe. During ganks, Yh Kha will feel strong, as will any assassin with stealth. Any champion tbh.

FireboltJan 19, 20192 votes

While not necessarily the most deserving or highest priority of Champions that need a rework, I 100% agree. Because of her passive and high potential AoE damage, she'll never be balanced as she currently exists.

Honestly have no idea how they'll do it, but her daggers are way too telegraphed for the minimal reward they give (or rather, it feels pretty minimal as every CC ability on the planet just ruins her day). But pre-Assassin rework Katarina was annoying to play against too. They just need to find some middle ground and/or make her blink similar to Irelia's dash (i.e. allow her to reset it easier so she can go in and out of fights without just face-tanking damage).

TitanAnteusJan 19, 20192 votes

It'll be a challenge for her. It might have to be a groundup rework tbh. She's definitely in serious need of help, and the only designer I know who's been consistently creating interesting mechanics that accentuate the character's strengths is CertainlyT.

I personally have no idea how I would tackle the challenge.

Everything needs to go. Her ult especially is not good for her.

King LegoJan 19, 20192 votes

While I agree that Katarina needs a rework, I don't agree CT is the one who should rework her. Unless he doesn't work alone.

If he works alone, he will make Katarina toxic for the game itself.

TitanAnteusJan 19, 20191 votes

I don't agree as I'm in the boat that none of his champs are actually all that bad. I might be biased because I play them all though.

But I also play champs like Azir and Shen. CertainlyT's design philosophy is just pure unadulterated fun. His champions are complex in the ways that fighting game characters are complex. Strong with weaknesses where in the hands of good players, they can mask those weaknesses.

BTW, I do not ban Yasuo. In fact, I mostly win against Yasuo when I play Mordekaiser mid. Even Vel'Koz and Talon wreck yasuo.

PoskeJan 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I don't agree as I'm in the boat that none of his champs are actually all that bad. I might be biased because I play them all though.

But I also play champs like Azir and Shen. CertainlyT's design philosophy is just pure unadulterated fun. His champions are complex in the ways that fighting game characters are complex. Strong with weaknesses where in the hands of good players, they can mask those weaknesses.

BTW, I do not ban Yasuo. In fact, I mostly win against Yasuo when I play Mordekaiser mid. Even Vel'Koz and Talon wreck yasuo.

Velkoz wrecks yasuo?

What an actual fk, this is prob the easiest yasuo matchup

TitanAnteusJan 19, 20191 votes

Velkoz ult goes through yasuo windwall. Velkozcan Q sideways to get past yasuo windwall. Velkoz's knock up goes through yasuo's windwall. Not sure about the gash on the ground ability though.

If you position your CC properly Yasuo can't engage. Since you build AP, you will do damage to him once you get your full combo out.

PoskeJan 20, 20191 votes

Velkoz ll never hit good yasuo with anything apart from few seconds of his ultimate

Knockup doesnt go through windwall I doubt any velkoz could beat my yasuo on a consistent basis

As a yasuo main trust me when I say. Velkoz is in top 5 easiest matchups

King LegoJan 19, 20191 votes

I'm a Vel'Koz main so yeah. Yasuo is a meme. But I always consider it a 50/50 so I don't underestimate and go 0/10.

One argument about his champs are they are fun to play as but unfun to play against. However, there's nothing wrong if they are complex but being overloaded with their own kits is just too far.

Most of his champs went through hell of changes (maybe Thresh is the most of all) even when released. The community from lowest to highest complain about his champs. Me included. Shame on me.

"I might be biased because I play them all though." Happens to all of us.

TitanAnteusJan 19, 20191 votes

I never really understood the complaint about "overloaded" kits. A lot of people feel that adding extra conditions to abilities and stuff makes them stronger, but I'm more scared of the simple guys.

Akali pre rework is much stronger at killing somebody then akali post rework. She did not have her Kama circle so she never had to disengage from the fight before coming back in. Her W was just strong. It always lasted a preset length so she could actually use it to just hide forever and not be punished for that action.

Akali pre rework is a much simpler kit though. The extra conditions added onto her didn't make her stronger post-rework. It made her weaker if you didn't play her properly.

Unfun to play against is also an argument I don't really jive well with. Most Yasuo players love his complexity. If you get good at yasuo... you're going to be a good player. That's kind of just a fact, because playing Yasuo doesn't just make you a good player. Bad Yasuos exist in droves. The reason it "feels" unfun to play against a Yasuo is because he's timing his defensive tools properly in order to duel you well. If he fights a champion like Renekton... or Garen or Xin yasuo will most likely lose because his defensive options don't help much against those champs.

So yeah... I don't get the hate train against CT.

King LegoJan 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I never really understood the complaint about "overloaded" kits. A lot of people feel that adding extra conditions to abilities and stuff makes them stronger, but I'm more scared of the simple guys.

Akali pre rework is much stronger at killing somebody then akali post rework. She did not have her Kama circle so she never had to disengage from the fight before coming back in. Her W was just strong. It always lasted a preset length so she could actually use it to just hide forever and not be punished for that action.

Akali pre rework is a much simpler kit though. The extra conditions added onto her didn't make her stronger post-rework. It made her weaker if you didn't play her properly.

Unfun to play against is also an argument I don't really jive well with. Most Yasuo players love his complexity. If you get good at yasuo... you're going to be a good player. That's kind of just a fact, because playing Yasuo doesn't just make you a good player. Bad Yasuos exist in droves. The reason it "feels" unfun to play against a Yasuo is because he's timing his defensive tools properly in order to duel you well. If he fights a champion like Renekton... or Garen or Xin yasuo will most likely lose because his defensive options don't help much against those champs.

So yeah... I don't get the hate train against CT.

Honestly I use to hate CT and have a ton of issues about him. But not too long ago, I just don't care about this game (even balance or player behaviour) as I grew away from it. I guess I'm getting old.

Anyway, the thing about his champs is most of them went through alot of changes. Like maybe more than any other champs. WW's the only champ that was decent without much changes because CT didn't work alone. To me, it proves that his imagination gets the better of him and goes overboard and overkill. Rumor has it he wanted to add a massive aoe fear on WW's ulti.

TitanAnteusJan 19, 20191 votes

I have no issues with that though. The designer's job is just to get the ideas out there. It's the balancing team's job to make sure the ideas don't break the game. He doesn't decide the numbers in the end basically. From a design perspective I see nothing wrong with most of his ideas. In fact, his champs have the most ability synergy, where every single ability helps every other ability or hurts other abilities in interesting ways. WW can't dash when preparing fear for instance. Building attack speed on Yasuo reduces his Q cooldown so people learn to value attack speed on him. Stuff like that, is why I like him as a designer.

King LegoJan 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I have no issues with that though. The designer's job is just to get the ideas out there. It's the balancing team's job to make sure the ideas don't break the game. He doesn't decide the numbers in the end basically. From a design perspective I see nothing wrong with most of his ideas. In fact, his champs have the most ability synergy, where every single ability helps every other ability or hurts other abilities in interesting ways. WW can't dash when preparing fear for instance. Building attack speed on Yasuo reduces his Q cooldown so people learn to value attack speed on him. Stuff like that, is why I like him as a designer.

Eh my perspective is that some mechanic are just impossible to balance and it's often the designer's fault.

If I happen to work as a champ designer for riot, my philosophy would be how unique and call they will be, as well as if they might prove to be toxic for the game or not as well as how much frustration it can be.

Because if so many players are complaining about something, that's when it is probably a failure. That's my perspective at least.

Imagine you make a mechanic that's causes so much frustration that drives almost all players from the game. Then the game and your company will start bleeding and die.

TitanAnteusJan 19, 20191 votes

Hmmm... I don't quite agree. I think with enough cooldown and resource management a champion with all ults as abilities could even work be balanced... I mean... Alistar W is basically Malphite Ult.

KoF's special cancelling system drew away alot of the early 98 player base because it made the game more complex. It stopped being as footsie orientated as other fighting games. The fighting game scene still respects 2002 as the best game in the series however.

I think toxicity comes from the players. Learning to adapt to an ever changing game environment where the skill gap between high skill players and low skill players is insanely high will guarantee these negative feelings happen. Believe it or not, Victor used to a huge pubstomper that was hated as much as Yasuo. Kassadin as well. People thought these champs unbalanceable. They had Kassadin down b4 the buffs, and Victor's in a good spot right now.

King LegoJan 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Hmmm... I don't quite agree. I think with enough cooldown and resource management a champion with all ults as abilities could even work be balanced... I mean... Alistar W is basically Malphite Ult.

KoF's special cancelling system drew away alot of the early 98 player base because it made the game more complex. It stopped being as footsie orientated as other fighting games. The fighting game scene still respects 2002 as the best game in the series however.

I think toxicity comes from the players. Learning to adapt to an ever changing game environment where the skill gap between high skill players and low skill players is insanely high will guarantee these negative feelings happen. Believe it or not, Victor used to a huge pubstomper that was hated as much as Yasuo. Kassadin as well. People thought these champs unbalanceable. They had Kassadin down b4 the buffs, and Victor's in a good spot right now.

I remember playing vs a Viktor top. Real fun experience...

I honestly legit think that sometimes the state of the game is one reason why there is toxicity.

Take diversity for example. In bot lane, picking specific champions made other support or adc almost unviable and those who main those champions were upset. Can you blame them?

Those who don't main champions are often meh. But those who main champions and want to earn their rank by that champion are the ones who can get effected negatively.

TitanAnteusJan 19, 20191 votes

Can you blame them?

Yes I can. If you play Sonic slow and deliberately, but the devs want you to play fast so they add gecko frogs that hide in the map and shoot slow moving projectiles at you to get your ass moving, then don't hate on the game. The game has tons of incentives to keep moving.

It's not Mario, learn to adapt to a different game.

You're probably thinking, no one does that... well I met someone who does that recently and it boggled the mind.

If you ONLY play support or ADC you deserve to lose when the meta shifts. Part of the game's appeal is that it's constantly changing so that returning players can get more out of the game, and so that things get fixed. If you don't ever play other roles, you also won't be able to understand their weaknesses as well. These meta shifts are a good wake up call, so these players deserve to lose and keep losing if they stubbornly rely on old strategies.

King LegoJan 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yes I can. If you play Sonic slow and deliberately, but the devs want you to play fast so they add gecko frogs that hide in the map and shoot slow moving projectiles at you to get your ass moving, then don't hate on the game. The game has tons of incentives to keep moving.

It's not Mario, learn to adapt to a different game.

You're probably thinking, no one does that... well I met someone who does that recently and it boggled the mind.

If you ONLY play support or ADC you deserve to lose when the meta shifts. Part of the game's appeal is that it's constantly changing so that returning players can get more out of the game, and so that things get fixed. If you don't ever play other roles, you also won't be able to understand their weaknesses as well. These meta shifts are a good wake up call, so these players deserve to lose and keep losing if they stubbornly rely on old strategies.

Meh. I'm a Vel'Koz mid main.

If I want to climb ranks I want to do so with the champion I'm best with.

Adapting is one thing. It doesn't mean a certain playstyle or meta are magically healthy for the game.

It's all a double edged sword and depends on what it is really. Even riot tends to remove certain meta that deemed unhealthy. Tank Ekko and fizz are a good example of such.

TitanAnteusJan 19, 20191 votes

I'm not saying all metas are healthy. I'm saying that trying to play the exact same way as you used to and not changing anything about your play-style as the meta shifts around you is the same as sticking your head in the sand. You're actively avoiding trying to enjoy yourself.

King LegoJan 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying all metas are healthy. I'm saying that trying to play the exact same way as you used to and not changing anything about your play-style as the meta shifts around you is the same as sticking your head in the sand. You're actively avoiding trying to enjoy yourself.

Well you're not wrong.

Some champions are most enjoyable but only in one playstyle. It depends on the player's taste really.

King LegoJan 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I have no issues with that though. The designer's job is just to get the ideas out there. It's the balancing team's job to make sure the ideas don't break the game. He doesn't decide the numbers in the end basically. From a design perspective I see nothing wrong with most of his ideas. In fact, his champs have the most ability synergy, where every single ability helps every other ability or hurts other abilities in interesting ways. WW can't dash when preparing fear for instance. Building attack speed on Yasuo reduces his Q cooldown so people learn to value attack speed on him. Stuff like that, is why I like him as a designer.

Eh my perspective is that some mechanic are just impossible to balance and it's often the designer's fault.

Because if so many players are complaining about something, that's when it is probably a failure. That's my perspective at least.

Imagine you make a mechanic that's causes so much frustration that drives almost all players from the game. Then the game and your company will start bleeding and die.

SyrileJan 19, 20191 votes

I would agree that she needs a rework but unfortunately, if she gets one, she will be far more toxic. She will have about 90-120 dashes, four heals, each ability will have two passives and one active. Her passive will have multiple passives. Her ultimate will make her untargetable and give her true damage to everyone. And then she will teleport away while full-healing.

Maybe an exaggeration... but not by much?

SyrileJan 19, 20191 votes

I mean.. I almost never lose to Yasuo, but I still think he is a toxic champion. In fact, my most killed champion last season was Yasuo. Probably because he is a nonsense champion and is picked at such an absurd rate. Like Ahri or Lux pick rates... Cept I ban Ahri because she is even more boring to face. Just play Malzahar and watch Yasuo dodge.

AeroifyJul 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Her playstyle's really feast or famine. She's a melee champion with no real defensive options who's weak to CC that gets played mid. Other champions like Akali do what she does better, so her identity as a champion's in risk, and the twin blades motif of her character isn't capitalized on in her gameplay. Her kit doesn't work well in a team-orientated environment either so picking her is actually not fun for the rest of the team.

Give her to CertainlyT. I love his take on Akali and Mordekaiser. I think he'd be able to find a really fun playstyle for her that re-establishes her identity as a badass swordswomen that focus on speed over power.

I'm probably gonna get downvoted for saying what I said about CertainlyT anyway, so I'll add this. Morde doesn't need a rework as much as quite a few champs. I really hope you guys put off the morde rework to do the other champs first. I personally think Katarina is one of the champs that needs more attention then Morde.

Disagree with everything you just suck at playing katarina