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Riot, I think it's time to admit you cant handle adding more champions

DrCyanide··76 votes·4,270 views

OP.GG put it best http://i.imgur.com/1R2bsq9.png?noredirect https://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

Champion.gg seconds OP.GG's findings http://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox = No results http://champion.gg/champion/Udyr = No results http://champion.gg/champion/Volibear = No results (You can swap the champion name to another champion and you get results)

If not one, not two, but three champions are so far in the unplayable gutter that statistics websites can't get data on them, maybe it's time to admit that the maximum champions the balance team can support is 135, not 138 plus whatever else is in development. Experience tells us that players will one trick just about anything. To get three champions to the point where even their one tricks are statistically unnoticeable? Those champions are pretty far gone, neglected to an extreme level.

Yes, you might be able to patch these particular 3, or shift the meta so that things aren't so bad for them, but how long will it be until the different champions drop off the radar completely? Will it be 4 or 5 champions then?

This does not inspire confidence that adding new champions is the right way to go.

88 Comments

Kirius Dark50 votes

Aatrox still costs as much asKayn to buy too

LiteUpSketchers6 votes

Why do that when you can buy Yasuo

You know?

PROJECT Katarìna1 votes

Why do that when you can buy Katarina

You know?

Meeks0112 votes

I own all three of the RIP champions, this is why I need more refunds every season.

Penns17 votes

unplayable gutter

https://i.gyazo.com/e1b2b02d6d7d631f33b375dda41a5ae0.png hehe

DrCyanide2 votes

Who's reporting that? The sites that even list Aatrox have him at something like 48% win rate, despite being played only by mains.

Penns2 votes

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Aatrox/Top/ but at diamond+

WoonStruck33 votes

So you're taking the champion with the smallest sample size...and combining it with the playerbase with the smallest sample size...

Hmm...I wonder why his winrate is all over the place each day...

Penns16 votes

its more about the consistent ~50% win rate tho

i get triggered by how people always call champs like Aatrox Kindred MasterYi Nasus Teemo "garbage" no matter what xd

Mens Hair Club2 votes

juggernauts are automatically weak sorry

hehe

Penns5 votes

a wise man once said "proud juggernauts dont have ranged cc hehe"

Illaoi = proud

Nasus = filthy tank hehe

sutora35 votes

but it is only a 95% slow

Infernape1 votes

And then you have some Nasus mains wanting his W to ground you as well. Might as well say "I pressed W and you don't get to play the game".

iamthegoatofwar2 votes

I don't think W itself should ground you, but I'd be willing to give up part of the slow(if they amped the AS debuff to the exact same as it is now to compensate that loss)if they made it ground you in his spirit fire. If he uses this combo probably more than about 2-3 times earlyish in laning phase he'd be oom.

DrCyanide3 votes

{quoted}

its more about the consistent ~50% win rate tho

Safe to say it's probably around 48% despite being played by mains, which is really weak?

i get triggered by how people always call champs like Aatrox Kindred MasterYi Nasus Teemo "garbage" no matter what xd

I totally get that. It's a mentality that too many pros and high level streamers perpetuate, and from there it trickles down. My point was less "they're garbage" and more "what kind of state do they have to be in that most of their mains think they're garbage, then abandon them?"

Penns5 votes

Well Udyr and Voli arent good but Im pretty sure Meddler said Aatrox top is doing fine.

SzGamer2273 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/aatrox https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/GIfEvQS.png

Aatrox mains actually have a win rate above 55%, bordering 57%.

Salson16 votes

Nothing new here, those 3 need reworks.

Aatrox and Udyr are in development, Voli is stated for a VGU.

japhib2 votes

This.

  • TL;DR Riot does good work, and when they don't, they're well aware of it. These champs are all slated for reworks within the next couple months.

Let's also take a moment to think about how many champions Riot has taken from the essentially "RIP" status and brought back to real playability through reworks

Warwick Poppy Galio Yorick Shen

and debatably

Urgot Talon

Plus, it's not like the new champs Riot comes out with are typically horrible and unplayable. They're usually awesome and very playable and relevant, with very high play rates.

Ivern Kayn Taliyah Xayah Rakan

The only exception is Aatrox, who Riot have stated on multiple occasions ( links: 1 2 3 4 ) that they are reworking. They even said it's going to be "the largest pure gameplay update we have ever done on a champion, with every single ability being evaluated and updated." They are well aware of this failure and are working to change it.

Similarly with Udyr, they've done work on him recently ( patches: 7.8 and 7.10 ) and there have been other changes on the PBE (they were pulled but will probably be coming back soon) evidencing again, that Riot is well aware of these problem champs and is working to fix them.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

The problem is it often feels like every new champion makes 2 old ones unplayable. Or my favorite are the replacement champs Like Ekko is to Diana. Right now its closer then usual because they buffed her, but with all his cc why play Diana realisticlly. If I had to pick one to main I feel Ekkos utility is so much better even though their kits are very similar.

japhib1 votes

Is Diana really that similar to Ekko? If anything I'd say diana is more similar to Akali with the whole "mark with Q then dash to them with R" mechanic. But idk

Especially with the change to Diana's passive (or E passive? I don't remember) where she gets bonus attack speed from casting any ability, it seems like she's got a fairly different playstyle from Ekko. She has more sustained damage and less burst/utility than him.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

{quoted}

Is Diana really that similar to Ekko? If anything I'd say diana is more similar to Akali with the whole "mark with Q then dash to them with R" mechanic. But idk

Especially with the change to Diana's passive (or E passive? I don't remember) where she gets bonus attack speed from casting any ability, it seems like she's got a fairly different playstyle from Ekko. She has more sustained damage and less burst/utility than him.

Their Q both is thrown out but his helps him get his passive. Her E gives a knockup, his W (similar skills) gives a AOE stun, and a sheild. Their last one hers is a shield, but his helps him fight mages and escape. Her ult is needed to burst, his helps him escape, burst, outplay.

I feel like both kits are super similar, but because of the bonus utility it seems better.

Primaquarius7 votes

How are Udyr and Volibear unplayable? They are great offtank physical junglers who offer a lot to picks and fights

DrCyanide5 votes

If they're great, why are they being played so infrequently that two separate sites can't even get data on them? Clearly something's not working out for them.

TequilaZombie3 votes

Clearly every squishy being generaly faster, out ranging and outdamaging them, while having a game state in which everything is a burst while they are pure DPS's not working out for them.

FTFY :D

Sinlaire3 votes

it's not that they aren't good, it's that everyone else is better.

XxxLumberJackxxX1 votes

{quoted}

How are Udyr and Volibear unplayable? They are great offtank physical junglers who offer a lot to picks and fights

Both are mediocre tier

Darkdemon6536 votes

It's not that they can't; it's that they won't.

Obviously, it's still a problem either way.

Slythion6 votes

leagueofgraphs.com

That's really the only semi-reputable stats sight imo. op.gg is generally only good for checking player stats

SweedishGunner5 votes

Issue with these 3 is that they're very binary. They only really do one thing, hit shit. When they're good at that they're oppressive, when they aren't good they suck.

Anags4 votes

Wait, did you just describe most of the adc's on this game. I think you did.

Pumping Iron5 votes

Aatrox mains right now: If players don't know Aatrox exists they can't ban my main.

http://imgur.com/a/wbrTZ

TheHappyReaperz4 votes

That's why I use League of Graphs. Unlike its competitor sites, League of Graphs offers indepth statistics on all champions, at all levels. League of Graphs, for when your legendary statistics need a legendary graph. Visit today at: https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/

######This message was not sponsored by League of Graphs, I just like the site.

Jeanne fan club4 votes

Aatrox is actually really good, its just that he has had such a bad pr for the longest time that the meme carried on with him after they fixed him post rework.

HR5OdeMImE3 votes

When Riot made Bramble Vest, they ruined a few champions in the toplane like Aatrox and Warwick. Now if you wanna play them you will get better results in the jungle.

azrolator1 votes

This was the first thing that came to my mind on seeing the list. Now tanks, along with mages and ads have tools to nerf aa tanks. voli isn't a drain tank, but he has to hit you to do any damage, and then loses a lot of his long cd passive regen. Plus anyone with a flash or a dash (so many) can basically beat voli's speed bump or aatrox q.

Kairoptra4 votes

They've said in the past that they will be gradually slowing their champion production in favor of champion updates. http://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2017/06/champion-roadmap-june-2017/ Look just bellow the Azir picture. I know they've said it other times, but I honestly don't have the patience to look through a bunch of old posts to find it.

DrCyanide1 votes

If I recall that post correctly, that plan had them switching from 60-40 new/update to 50-50 next year (and probably the year after) then eventually 40-60. They currently deliver 6 new champions a year (I think 4 big updates per year? Haven't checked that one), so in 4 years they're probably going to have 6+5+5+4 new champions, bringing us to 158. Again, if champions are falling by the wayside with 138 (even some new champions, like Azir, Kalista, and Ryze rework) what are the odds things will look better with 20 more Champions on the roster?

Kairoptra4 votes

Sorry in advance for the essay, but I shortened as much as I could while still getting my point across. I want to make it clear right off the bat that I'm not trying to be hostile. I just want to speak my mind.

I think it's clear that they don't want to stop making new champions; it's part of what keeps this game interesting. That's not to say that VGUs don't do the same thing, but you can only rework champions so many times before they reach a "good spot".

Then you have lore to consider. They retconned lore a while back and are doing what they can to rebuild the world around their characters. They want to keep a lot similar while still adding onto it. Yes certain lore reworks have done the job, they can only do it so often without having to go through another retcon. They need new champions as a means of keeping it entertaining.

Besides, there is so much unexplored territory in terms of champion design. Yes, VGUs can solve this problem, there are many champions whose designs should be preserved as-is. Yes, adding champions can hinder balance, but that's where the VGU teams come in. There is an emergency team set up for these situations.

I think that Riot is doing a pretty good job of, if nothing else keeping champions relevant. If there are only 3 out of 138 champions that don't get played often enough to make it onto op.gg's statistics, I'd say Riot's not exactly struggling.

In response to your original post, you can never put a deadline on game balance. It's a constant process that must be maintained. It is not something that can be "achieved" in that it doesn't just happens and then everybody's happy with it. It's like with police; their job isn't to make it to where there is no crime. Their job is to make sure that the crime that does happen is dealt with. Riot's job isn't to make the game balanced; it's to deal with anything that is considered unbalanced.

DrCyanide2 votes

I appreciate a lot of your points, and think they're valid. Riot does have enough incentive to keep making new champions they're not going to stop, you're right on that account. I guess it's not even that I expect Riot to have everything balanced all the time, or even most of the time.

I guess I just expect champions, the core piece of the game that players interact with, to not be left in such a state where no one wants to (or feels they can) play them.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

I think it's clear that they don't want to stop making new champions; it's part of what keeps this game interesting.

This specifically though, why do they need new ones when there are probably 20 champs that just need updates, and some like Yi that seems okay, but could use an update in my opinion so he is played in more elos, or deal with the overwhelming damage/cc/mobility creep (which the runes might deal with the damage.)

the weeaboo2 votes

Trick2g accounts for 78% of all Udyrs games played, ever.

######disclaimer: this is not an actual statistic

Imortal Dragon1 votes

anyone else remember aurelion sol? no... oh um.. ok......

DrCyanide2 votes

There have been a handful of new champions that have been released then promptly forgotten. Or released, used only by the LCS, nerfed, then forgotten. Sol fell into the latter group almost immediately after launch.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Let's just ignore how riot is already working on udyr and aatrox lol.

DrCyanide1 votes

"Let's just ignore the second paragraph of the post" is a more accurate statement.

How long until some other Champions take their place? What processes have changed to prevent this from happening again? Without an internal process change, this will happen again.

Chaos Milk Tea1 votes

The process is called the champion update schedule. It replaces old outdated kits that are overly binary and derive power from a single stat or purpose in the meta, and gives them more counterplay and outplay potential. Notice that updates come out much more frequently than new releases as of the last two years. Riot has made it a priority to update the lost champions.

DrCyanide2 votes

There have been 4 VGU updates in the last 12 months, there have been 6 new champions in the last 12 months. Rev stated that they're thinking next year may go from 60-40 new/update to 50-50, but that's still a substantial number of new champions.

It's worth pointing out that "new" and "updated" champions are not immune to problems, and get their share of time sitting in time out waiting for the balance team to figure out what to do with them after the LCS has their play time. Azir Kalista AurelionSol Kindred Ryze have all demonstrate this pretty well.

azrolator1 votes

They updated Aatrox, but they didn't really rework him. He still works in basically the same way, aa someone standing next to him, continue to aa and vamp - stat check to see if you win or lose/ enemy has a flash or is one of the million champs with dashes or blinks or whatever - stop vamping - die. The reworks you are including are to make many of these champs less unbearable, but not to actually be competitive against newer champs. If Riot intros 6 new champs, and 4 are broken kits, and reworks 4 champs, then they won't make any progress at all.

To be honest, I don't even like these champ reworks. Damage creep, mobility creep, etc. The problem is not with champs that are not viable in the current game state, the problem is with the current game state. In another couple seasons if they managed to rework everyone and still keep going on this path, almost all the champs will be able to dash across the map in 5 seconds and burst 5k in 1.5 seconds while the other champs will go speed 250 but will have a passive that anyone in aa range will automatically take 90% true damage max health percent. I think only 10 year olds and professional athletes will have the reflexes required to play this game.

The changes they made to Aatrox would have kicked butt years ago. You fail stat check, you go tank mode. Aatrox hasn't got worse, the game has left him behind like many of the players who enjoy that style of champ.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

You keep on repeating neglected but riot is actively attempting to fix them? It's better to spend time and do a good job once than fuck up twice.

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