Have we not learned anything from past mistakes regarding Marksman in this game????

Aroha Mai·Oct 31, 2015·57 votes·3,278 views

Marksman are strong-->People starting playing/maining assassins which gets them nerfed-->People who main marksman complain they are getting killed because "assassins shouldn't be able to kill me so easily"-->Tanks are buffed to counter assassins--> Bruisers somehow become strong in the process which gets tanks and bruisers nerfed.

The circle keeps on spinning and Marksman keep on being the class that Riot mostly if not only adheres to because frankly its been fucking like this since S1 and unless we don't see actual meaningful changes to the meta or something its going to be like this for years to come and will only make it less healthy.

41 Comments

Trash MammaIOct 31, 201533 votes

Riot loves their marksman babies.

"Help Tanks are tanking too much damage nerf them!" - Done "Help assassin are assassinating me nerf them!" - Done "Help bruisers are outdueling me nerf them!" - Done "People are saying we are too strong..=( do you think that's true" - Buffed "I knew you loved me =)"

fééd l0rdOct 31, 20156 votes

The Thing is the tanks this season were not balanced. cinderhulk was broken, so are juggernauts. It's obvious that they would get nerfed and marksman will get buffed cause they were will the whole season over.

Voluug13Oct 31, 201531 votes

Cinderhulk stoped being broken after the first nerf. Everything after that it was all overkill and preparation for the LC$/World$.

In fact when tanks are strong ADCs are also strong. Its natural. And now ADCs will cry about assassins again, and all because the tanks that protected them were nerfed to hell.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/783/443/d1b.gif

The Great JaggiNov 1, 20151 votes

And yet, we've still seen only Cinderhulk at Worlds anyway, with the exception of 2 Runeglaives and 1 Warrior.

Voluug13Nov 1, 20152 votes

I am not talking about LCS exclusively. Devourer and its champions have never been used much in LCS anyways, they need too much snowball and farm time to scale properly, when an early ganker can get more advantage for his team by feeding his team.

Even if jungle was crowded by the Cinderhulk, guess what? it was still more heathy for the entire game. Tanks allow every single role BUT assassins to be useful.

Adcs can do their job while being protected.
Inmobile mages and Bruisier mages enjoy the anti-assassin CC in teamfights.
Squishy supports can be picked without hurting the team's frontline.
Non tanky toplaners can be picked.

This year's World's first week had more variety that the entire Worlds 2014.

EDIT: Cinderhulk its impossible to be the most picked enchant ment in WORLDS. It was the most picked before the cinderhulk nerfs, around 5 months ago. The most picked jungler in Worlds was Elise with Runeglaive. After that are Reksai and Gragas with Cinderhulk. And both have always been strong because mobility plus tenacity ignoring CC, not only because Cinderhulk. The fact people choose tanky jungler builds is because those champions are usually better off as initiators and early gankers.

BârdNov 2, 20151 votes

Kermit drinks tea

all is good

Yosuke ApperuOct 31, 20153 votes

They nerfed cinderhulk twice in the time that they gave sated devourer a love tap. I really hope that they change the jungle this meta.

ihaveapotionOct 31, 20158 votes

Assassins oneshotting adcs is fine, assassins two shotting tanks never was. pen/rend/ignore stat is the problem.

101100111000Oct 31, 20157 votes

Balancing around ranged ADCs.

Sounds familiar.

summoner 4

WheatloafOct 31, 20154 votes

I'd honestly like to say that, because I've been on the PBE, I can speak as to how marksman are going to stack up to the competition. Unfortunately, until people on the PBE stop locking them in every damn role, I can only tell you that Caitlyn can currently put out way too many early traps, Graves' damage is probably going to be seeing a nerf, and Corki's global sirens for "The Package" are fucking terrifying. Not to mention the ability itself.

Though each marksman is being changed to make them good at their own specific thing, so I think individually, overall, they're going to end up being easier to deal with. Good luck assassinating Graves, though. Melee range in the jungle is the LAST place you want to find yourself against the man.

Count ZubatOct 31, 20152 votes

Well, this time Markmen are getting tools to survive assassins. PD and Death's Dance will probably reduce a lot of damage, Maw of Malmortius and Merculiar Scimitar are changed so they become good items for marksmen, essentially counterbuilding AP assassins, and Last Whisper working now only on bonus armor, which means it is useless against marksmen who build no armor, thus nerfing AD assassins. Maybe Riot learned they're lessons: they will just try to make adcs as hard to kill as possible.

ErdamonOct 31, 201522 votes

So, adcs should be unkillable by anyone? Well that's a fucking dumb idea considering crits and life steal still exist

Count ZubatOct 31, 20153 votes

Well, Riot must think so, looking at items they are introducing. OP said that, with marksmen being OP, assassins will return to meta. By saying that Riot learnt their lessons, I meant they decided to make adcs very hard to kill. I'm not saying it's a good thing, imo it's just dumb, but looking at all the changes, that's what Riot is thinking. Maybe my post wasn't clear enough.

Sir YamazukiOct 31, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Iwul,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HygwzyNU,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-31T08:27:16.029+0000)

Well, this time Markmen are getting tools to survive assassins. PD and Death's Dance will probably reduce a lot of damage, Maw of Malmortius and Merculiar Scimitar are changed so they become good items for marksmen, essentially counterbuilding AP assassins, and Last Whisper working now only on bonus armor, which means it is useless against marksmen who build no armor, thus nerfing AD assassins. Maybe Riot learned they're lessons: they will just try to make adcs as hard to kill as possible.

Damage reduction isn't effective against just assassins, it now means a tank and some mages probably won't ever be able to solo kill an adc, even though that's already difficult enough to do after a point in the game. ADCs have always been supposed to be the glass cannons of a team, so why exactly do they have to have items that make a ranged carry, some of them who happen to be very safe, difficult to kill? They're also getting a lot of sustain which again, hurts tanks and some mages more than assassins. AD assassins do not care if an adc has a ton of life steal or are slightly harder to kill, they'll most likely still kill them in .5~2 seconds still anyways in the later stages of the game, all this just makes it so tanks or mages don't get to kill them at all.

Yosuke ApperuOct 31, 20152 votes

Tanks are supposed to counter adc's(except vayne because now 12% max health silver bolts). If they do have their damage resistance tho, i may not be able to one shot em anymore as an assassin.

Baron of BreadOct 31, 20158 votes

I believe that ADCs are supposed to counter tanks. The tanks are supposed to counter burst because they can survive the burst and then beat on you while you have cooldowns, the ADC doesn't have cooldowns on their main damage source so they can kill tanks with relative ease.

AlphariteOct 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are supposed to counter adc's(except vayne because now 12% max health silver bolts). If they do have their damage resistance tho, i may not be able to one shot em anymore as an assassin.

That's not true. Tanks counter assassins.

Kitty von TunaNov 1, 20151 votes

... Assassins have bursts

AlphariteNov 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitty von Tuna,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HygwzyNU,comment-id=00020001000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-01T02:48:43.487+0000)

... Assassins have bursts

.... Which tanks are made to live through. Ever seen Zed ult Malphite? It doesn't end well for Zed.

Yosuke ApperuNov 1, 20152 votes

Because he just shadows out, doesn't kill his target... but doesnt die for it either :P

Devack The HolyNov 1, 20151 votes

Until Malph says "Fuck that" and ults Zed, then proceeds to crush him like the bug he is.

AlphariteNov 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because he just shadows out, doesn't kill his target... but doesnt die for it either :P

More likely that Malphite CCs him while Zed is waiting for the shadow delay. Or Zed wastes his only kill pressure for nothing.

Yosuke ApperuNov 1, 20151 votes

They're both true to an extent. Atleast that's how it was.. back when thorn mail was worth building

AlphariteNov 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They're both true to an extent. Atleast that's how it was.. back when thorn mail was worth building

Thornmail wasn't even the best item against assassins. It's much better against Marksmen or champs like Yi/Tryndamere.

Yosuke ApperuNov 1, 20151 votes

I meant for tanks to soak up dps from adc's.

The Yetii RiderOct 31, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HygwzyNU,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-10-31T10:24:04.524+0000)

Damage reduction isn't effective against just assassins, it now means a tank and some mages probably won't ever be able to solo kill an adc, even though that's already difficult enough to do after a point in the game. ADCs have always been supposed to be the glass cannons of a team, so why exactly do they have to have items that make a ranged carry, some of them who happen to be very safe, difficult to kill? They're also getting a lot of sustain which again, hurts tanks and some mages more than assassins. AD assassins do not care if an adc has a ton of life steal or are slightly harder to kill, they'll most likely still kill them in .5~2 seconds still anyways in the later stages of the game, all this just makes it so tanks or mages don't get to kill them at all.

That's the point though. Riot wants the game to be centered around marksmen. They are making assassins worth playing again by making marskmen impossible to kill otherwise, nerfing all the AP items, and making it so tanks/juggernauts/bruisers are relegated to defensive/engage roles instead of bullying.

The game will be four people and a carry, and the main idea is that if you can't kill their ADC their ADC kills your whole team.

Aroha MaiNov 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Iwul,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HygwzyNU,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-31T08:27:16.029+0000)

Well, this time Markmen are getting tools to survive assassins. PD and Death's Dance will probably reduce a lot of damage, Maw of Malmortius and Merculiar Scimitar are changed so they become good items for marksmen, essentially counterbuilding AP assassins, and Last Whisper working now only on bonus armor, which means it is useless against marksmen who build no armor, thus nerfing AD assassins. Maybe Riot learned they're lessons: they will just try to make adcs as hard to kill as possible.

Because Marksmen reaaaally need tools to help them survive..

WolfBVOct 31, 20152 votes

I for one welcome our new overlords.

DengedenOct 31, 20152 votes

ADC is the most mechanical role in the game. It requires an insane amount of micro to play properly. There's no reason to remove such a role.

People who main marksman complain they are getting killed

Nope nope nope. Everyone complains. Assassins have to dominate laning phase to be good. They are designed to kill champions, if the enemy laner can prevent that, they can't use a huge portion of their kit. So dominant laning phase it is. What's my point? Assassins are viable - Their lane counterparts complain - Junglers/top laners complain that their lanes lose or can't stop roams - Bot laners complain because they're underleveled (easy targets) - Assassins get nerfed.

Kuroi86Oct 31, 20152 votes

The meta shifts, that's the order of things.

Over all, while marksmen are gaining utility, it looks like their overall AD is going down a fair amount, which means less damage, who knows, it might balance out, we've got to see.

RebonackOct 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The meta shifts, that's the order of things.

Over all, while marksmen are gaining utility, it looks like their overall AD is going down a fair amount, which means less damage, who knows, it might balance out, we've got to see.

Between nerfs to their scaling AD, item changes, and mastery changes, an end game ADC is going to be sitting on about 60 less attack damage, all else being equal. And the changes to Whisper are a HUGE nerf to their damage against soft targets.

Kuroi86Oct 31, 20151 votes

I did a little number crunching but didn't go quite so far, didn't expect the difference would be quite that big though lol. That will certainly make a difference late game.

TransgressorNov 1, 20153 votes

I'll take all this with a grain of salt.

Looking at the updates during these days left me pretty dumbed out. Especially the stupid reliance to RNG. I was expecting some pretty solid updates to the only class in the game that wins by right-clicking, most importantly decision making for a change. And those Quinn changes, for fuck's sake what are they smoking...

But I digress. I'd apriciate a bit more than flat tweaks, a little substance would've been nice, and no, ammunition/reloads don't really cut it. I'm expecting this to be the worst season in the game's history when it comes to balance and healthy gameplay. Also, their absolute, insulting lack of communication is really rustling the playerbase's jimmies including mine.

I'll keep playing the game on an average bases since it's gotten so bad it no longer entices me, and see how this pans out. I fear we'll have anothing pre-season 5 jungle fuckfest, but this time all around the game. Well I'm a pessimist, so that might be of issue. Unfortunately, I've chosen to speak with my wallet from now on, and the only way they'll get any more support from me is by re-releasing Championship Riven. I know it's not really of importance, but I feel it's better than raging here in the Boards.

Baby GhoulOct 31, 20152 votes

Tanks only counter burst damage, not DPS. DPS is supposed to counter tanks. Burst damage counters DPS. Your team should have a healthy combination of all of these.

We seem to have forgotten that over the past couple of months when tanks could pretty much take any type of damage, and a lot of it. It's weird to think how just a few months ago people would not stop creating boards complaining that tanks could never die.

Now we are no longer in the tank meta. I think people that favor tanks are actually bigger babies than marksmen, but I don't know how well Riot is going to handle these marksmen changes. We saw how the juggernaut patch went, and this is a much more delicate class to balance on top of all the itemization changes. We remember how people got away with stacking tanks on top of tanks during the last meta, and how frustrating it was to play against. The thought of more than one marksman on a team after these changes makes me cringe.

AxxlonOct 31, 20151 votes

Actually you're not wrong. Even Morello confirmed all the way back in S2 that they centralize the meta around carries. I think the main reason for that is because carries are the ones that have the sustained damage output to take down objectives and whatnot.