What if Rengar became an actual stalker?

kargish··80 votes·4,774 views

I know that Rengar isn't exactly the most favoured champion on these boards, but I'm gonna talk about him anyway.

It's been about 5 years since Rengar was released, and ever since then Riot has always had the intention of Rengar being a stalker. The ultimate hunter that would hunt for the greatest games by analysing, preparing and then strike when his foe is most vulnerable. It's sort of like a Batman thing. Riot has never really gone 100% into it though. While Rengar does a great job as a thematic champion for League, he doesn't fit his fantasy entirely. He still pounce on his enemies, he has a "true hunter" kit (minus the Q thing but that's irrelevant) and he does a perfect job at making his enemies dread him with his ultimate.

The thing I am going to talk about in this post is Thrill of the Hunt, or more commonly known as Thrill of the Zone, and try to grasp the aspects it should fulfill, how well it does it and what I believe should be changed to make it right.

Let's start by listing what his ultimate does currently.

  • Grants Rengar camouflage after 2 seconds
  • Allows Rengar to leap to his opponent
  • Marks and provides vision towards the nearest enemy, but also alerting that enemy that he's marked
  • Grants him movement speed
  • If Rengar jumps to the marked target he will gain a guaranteed critical strike
  • Sexy purrs

So the overall idea with this is to reward Rengar for positioning correctly against his enemies, while the enemy can also position around it to deny Rengar power. Does this fulfill the fantasy of a stalker? No. Rengar gains instant power from this, he's not required to wait before pouncing on someone, so he's not in need of "preparing for the hunt" and doesn't serve as anything but another gap closer.

Instead I believe the ultimate should be changed into something else. Rather than give Rengar free strength with an ultimate that's ready to be served 2 seconds after being clicked, I think it should increase in power over time. First of all for this to be used to its full potential, the camouflage timer has to go up to a higher amount in the early game. Before you bring out your pitchforks I'd love if you'd read the full change list I have here to see where I am going.

Thrill of the Hunt:

Camouflage Duration: 12/16/20 --> 15/18/21

Rengar channels his predatory instincts, becoming camouflaged after 2 seconds and gaining 40% bonus movement speed for the duration. Attacking or casting most spells ends Thrill of the Hunt.

Rengar gains true sight of the nearest enemy champion, who he can leap to for a guaranteed critical strike, albeit notifying them of his presence.

Rengar channels his predatory instincts, becoming camouflaged after 2 seconds and gaining 40% bonus movement speed for the duration. Attacking or casting most spells ends Thrill of the Hunt.

Over the duration of Thrill of the Hunt, enemies within the detection radius will become Hunted. As these enemies remain within the area, Rengar will gain additional benefits to help him hunt down his foes.

Tracked (After 3 seconds): Rengar detects the heartbeat of his enemies. Making them reveal a shimmer effect through the fog of war every second.

On the Hunt (After 6 seconds): Rengar reveals enemies through the fog of war.

Vulnerability (After 9 seconds): Rengar has analysed the weakness of his prey. Dealing 30% increased damage to the target he chooses to attack.

Thrilling Triumph (After 12 seconds): Rengar has analysed the movements and acts of his prey. He will take 25% less damage from the target he chooses to attack. Additionally, if Rengar completes the hunt successfully, he'll receive a 40% movement speed increase for 2 seconds.

Enemies who are isolated (600 unit range) trigger these effects 25% faster

I'd just like to point out he does NOT gain a critical strike anymore, and he is still in camouflage so proximity will reveal him. The idea behind this is to reward Rengar the longer he's able to stalk his opponent, while giving the enemy plenty of time to take action before Rengar takes action. It's supposed to fit the "lie in wait and prepare" fantasy that describes him. The bonus % increase and reduction only applies to the target he chooses to leap onto. Rengar shouldn't gain increased AoE potential with his ult, so it remains as a duel theme. Rengar doesn't have to wait for these bonuses to take effect, he can choose to end the hunt immediately for the jump, but will receive no bonuses then. The longer he gets to prepare though, the more unfair it will be for his opponent. They got plenty of time to take action, either by grouping, backing off to their tower, wait for cooldowns or anything else really. Rengar has to wait extremely long before gaining any bonuses that'll give him extra dueling power, the abilitiy to track his enemies comes first.

I'd like to know what you think of this. Please leave a comment below. Thanks for reading.

67 Comments

General Esdeath 21 votes

I thought you were gonna say Rengar starts releasing personal info on players.

kargish15 votes

"Rengar has sent you a friend invite"

Doozku7 votes

I actually kind of like these changes. I had a similar idea except it was a lot more artificially with Rengar marking his hunt target and then not being able to leap on them until a certain time, but this seems pretty good. I also like how it gets rid of that dumb crit. One problem though. Since you are removing the crit and removing it with raw bonus damage and resistances against the target, I expect this to be a big buff to bruiser Rengar and a big nerf for Assassingar. I doubt Assassin Rengar's late game will be nearly as good without the crit, but this is a problem that can be fixed with changes to other spells in his kit (revert Q?? If only...)

kargish1 votes

I put % increase on there to favour a damaged focused build. Higher number means higher the increase. There might be a better way of doing it.

As for the damage reduction I made that to allow Rengar to outduel just about anyone, even if he's behind, if he manages to perform a perfect analysis. You'd even be able to go toe-to-toe with someone like Zed without dying to his 'Omae wa moe shindeiru.'

The steam life1 votes

I like the idea for late game but for early game how wiuld he gank a lane they'd be able to go to tier 1-2 tower before he gets a in fight bonus

Quasar Dragon4 votes

I love it. Specially the isolation buff. To rather have a correlation with the Khazix rivalry. Also I would like him to have a form of crowd control instead of Bola strike. Most Lions when they pounce on a target they bite it and take it down. So I would like if his leap would have like an aoe in the center where he will knockdown the opponent for like half a second and then have his E changed from a bola strike to a chomp or a bite that will deal percentage health damage. I would prefer if it was missing health but it could be max health as well and have it apply on hit effects so it can give him better clear in the jungle because with his current nerfs. He really struggles in staying healthy in the jungle at the first 3 levels which as an assassin he shouldn't really have that much of a problem with cause level 3 is where the power of most jungle assassins begins Like Rengar Khazix Lee Sin Shaco etc all of those spike at level 3 but to have Rengar so nerfed that his level 3 isn't healthy really puts a bad stain on his gameplay.

ddoA4 votes

This change will hit him hard, because later on fast engagements and teamfights would happend, and you would need to wait 9 seconds to get that extra 30% of the damage, and if you are behind that match, you would be hitted even harder, since riot wants him to be useful even if he is behind, not only if he is ahead.

The most simple solution to make him back into meta and to make him to feel like an assassin is just by removing his alert range when he ults, but keeping the sound of the heartbeat when he comes really close to the enemy so they would know that he ulted and still have time to react. Knowing from which direction he is coming from when you got that eyes over your champ, while he is in stealth is too much imo, I don't think he deserved that much counterplay on his ult. He is camouflaged now, so he can't just go through your whole team and kill your carry, but actually need to make a position so he won't get caught but still able to reach out to them if he gets removal of the alert. Current Rengar can't reach to the carry because of the alert range being too big and since they know from which direction he is coming from. If you are not out of position as a carry, you will always have a chance to survive from his ultimate, unless he is 10/0 with 5 lvls ahead, you will always have chance to survive because his ult is most useless ability on his kit right now.

TL;DR While the changes that OP said are creative and looks fun, Rengar would struggle even more late game with the all waiting for the extra damage.Simple solution would be a removal of the alert range, but keeping the heartbeat sound when he comes really close here so you would still know that he ulted but just you won't know from which direction is he coming from so he can actually reach to his target.

kargish1 votes

The change merely makes it so the more time you can afford to spend stalking someone, the easier the hunt will get for you. You can still leap to someone directly, and unload a full rotation just like on live. If you do manage to study your prey long enough though, you'll be rewarded with extra dueling power.

Waiting too long will also punish you, as the enemy can either A) wipe out your team while you're stacking buffs, or B) the enemy gets to a safe spot before you got time to prepare. It's about judging carefully how long you can afford to increase in power before making the kill.

ddoA1 votes

Actually you are right with these changes, i also didn't read about that isolation will give him faster buffs, it looks promising on paper, but it would be good if Rioters could actually test these on PBE to see if its healthy for Rengar and for other players.

Tonakide4 votes

just revert my q pls

DJMason883 votes

I know that isn't exactly the most favoured champion on these boards, but I'm gonna talk about him anyway.

Where were you when all the hot posts were about reverting Rengar?

Leetri2 votes

That was just the Rengar mains subreddit who never usually comment here showing up for a week or so and upvoting each other.

HeimerLmao4 votes

He did not say popular but favourable. Rengar subreddit isn't very liked here.

kargish2 votes

I was watching in the corner

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

Only thing I don't like is the damage reduction. I would much prefer CC immunity or something like that.

Arakadia7 votes

CC Immunity on an assassin who bursts from stealth?

HeimerLmao3 votes

A.K.A. Rengar right after the assasin update...

Arakadia1 votes

And look how great that turned out!

Velzard of Koz1 votes

Rengar's kit seems more fitting a Diver If it weren't so bursty and it seems Riot would want him that way so should his kit be adjusted to sustained damage or miniburst per second it may not be bad. However the 2 second MS bonus for killing target does seem the OP wants him to be Assasin and to kill targets quickly so there I would agree it's not good idea.

Rito Staff1 votes

He doesn't crit anymore. I love the stalking idea but 12s wait = 5 traps and the whole team prepared

Arakadia1 votes

What do you mean 5 traps and the whole team? There are champions with traps but not every single team has traps prepared.

If you remove his crit you have to compensate his damage. And he doesn't necessarily have to wait 12 s seconds.

Rinký Dinky1 votes

Rengar has a 100% crit in his kit what

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Damage reduction on an assassin who bursts from stealth?

Arakadia1 votes

The counterplay to an assassin isn't to damage them its to CC them, generally speaking.

And I never said the damage reduction was a good idea.

kargish1 votes

Just get Morgana to shield you and you'll have a similar effect.

Melledoneus3 votes

...yeah... been there, done that, doesn't work...

OHminus2 votes

actual stalker

Annie : Dials 911 Hi there's this guy stalking me, can I get some help please?

ChasmOfTrossm2 votes

Tracked (After 3 seconds): Rengar detects the heartbeat of his enemies. Making them reveal a shimmer effect through the fog of war every second.

On the Hunt (After 6 seconds): Rengar reveals enemies through the fog of war.

Vulnerability (After 9 seconds): Rengar has analysed the weakness of his prey. Dealing 30% increased damage to the target he chooses to attack.

Cool

Vulnerability (After 9 seconds): Rengar has analysed the weakness of his prey. Dealing 30% increased damage to the target he chooses to attack.

Thrilling Triumph (After 12 seconds): Rengar has analysed the movements and acts of his prey. He will take 25% less damage from the target he chooses to attack. Additionally, if Rengar completes the hunt successfully, he'll receive a 40% movement speed increase for 2 seconds.

Why does an assassin need a percentage-based increase in damage. An assassin building full damage items will do enough damage, and this will bring back the issue of not being able to fight back, which was a massive deal not too long ago. Adding 25% reduced damage undermines the point of what Rengar is trying to do. Kill. His preparation revolves around sharpening his knives and readying himself for the perfect ambush spot, he isn't throwing on some chainmail and heavy armor in preparation to tank a bunch of damage. A bonus movement speed reward for killing his target is enough, anything else would make him broken.

kargish1 votes

If we're going to look at it in terms of logic, he doesn't take reduced damage because he "gets some random chainmail on," but rather by studying the movements and acts of his prey, he can predict their actions and will thus "take reduced damage" this way.

As for gaining increased damage it's a reward for having stalked long enough, it allows you to sacrifice your element of surprise for more power, and gives the enemy enough time to counteract it.

The longer Rengar stalks the easier the hunt becomes. It's bound to make the duel unfair for his opponent if he gets the chance.

Arthastheiceking1 votes

wow this is cool

Avillogy1 votes

I like the changes mostly and agree with where riot is coming from, i do not however agree with taking away the critical trike that he gains from using his ultimate. I may be wrong but i feel he is not one of the most powerful champions in the game and could use some buffing, this update might be what he needs, or it could take away a bit more with having the critical strike chance taken away; if i was to suggest anything i would suggest having his ultimate do extra damage instead of critical strike, because later on in the game if you are building critical strike it can feel not quite as fun or as much as an ultimate. I am saying all this before I have played him with his new ultimate so i could be wrong; I do feel that he has needed some buffs. Plus this is just one persons opinion on Rengar

HollowMimic1 votes

I like your idea of patience that gives a way in both sides to make preparation. But I was also thinking of another new (modern) skill for his kit (maybe even as a passive somewhere).

Tracking

I'm not sure how it can be implemented in the game, but as Warwick can be faster with the smell of his low-life enemieswith W passive, then Rengar could possibly do the same by following footprints. Maybe have them as an active in his W to reveal footprints if an enemy passed from that point in the last 30 secs and make Rengar more vigilant (like a bit more Armor and movement speed if footprints are revealed). OR maybe even combine it with the trophy mechanic instead of making him merely stronger with each unique kill.

Of course adjustments can be made for the rest of the kit for this to be healthy. Nevertheless, Tracking is a skill available to Hunters for getting their prey and it might make Rengar healthier and differentiate his kit even more (bola strike and innate already making it).

Thoughts?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The main issue I foresee is that during team fights you don't have 9 seconds to set things up and if an assassin does not have all of the damage of their rotation they are fairly useless.

Slythion1 votes

This is a really really really cool idea from a thematic standpoint, but it wouldn't translate into the game very well. There is hardly any situation where someone knows they're being hunted for 12 whole seconds before finding safety, even 6 seconds would be difficult to get off for Rengar before someone walks under tower or go finds a teammate. Translating into teamfights, the ult will lose pretty much all usefulness except "another gapcloser".

If this would translate well into in game power then I'd be all for it, but as of right now it's just a really cool idea that wouldn't work in game :(

Mod FrostBite1 votes

what about counterplay

kargish2 votes

12 seconds preperation isn't good enough for you?

Mod FrostBite1 votes

{quoted}

12 seconds preperation isn't good enough for you?

so this one champion forces the entire team to counterpick champions who can stop him with stuns n shit. one champion forces this, becuase of the 12 seconds 25% bullshit. i don't think that's very healthy

kargish1 votes

I doubt this forces anyone to counterpick anything. I don't see anyone stacking cc to counter Warwick 55% damage reduction for an example, and I am quite sure you'd want to pick peel/CC against assassins anyway.

I think you're overexagerating here, because Rengar takes 25% from the target he chooses to leap onto, I doubt anyone would want to go with 5 counterpicks for him.

I don't see anyone do it against other duelists Jax Tryndamere XinZhao Warwick etc.

Mod FrostBite1 votes

{quoted}

I doubt this forces anyone to counterpick anything. I don't see anyone stacking cc to counter Warwick 55% damage reduction for an example, and I am quite sure you'd want to pick peel/CC against assassins anyway.

I think you're overexagerating here, because Rengar takes 25% from the target he chooses to leap onto, I doubt anyone would want to go with 5 counterpicks for him.

I don't see anyone do it against other duelists Jax Tryndamere XinZhao Warwick etc.

thing is ww doesn't one shot anyone, and leave the enemy team without an adc/consistent damage. 25% is way too much, something more like 10-15% would do quite well. Jax is easily kiteable, trynd as well, he can be dodged"his slow", xin is a little more like rengar, you are forced to have cc or your entire team is basically dead. luckily they reworked him a bit to allow for a window of counterplay i assume. Having rengar who not only one shots his target super well without 25%, then giving him 25% and a movement speed buff to reach other targets easily and destroy them is not healthy. The whole team is forced to pick cc in order to counter that, or a lot of tanks but that doesn't seem to matter atm. also his cc immunity and reduction of damage is just plain broken when given these buffs. you're asking for a riot [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Warkinge1 votes

Ahhh Healthy this magic word players only know when it comes to Rengar. How lovely. Hey look there is a champion that can destroy you from Camouflage and has 700+ range (and by you i mean all your team ofc). No no its healthy. I guess you're gonna argue yeah but he must (I hope you understood who i'm talking about) fed to do this ! Yeah and so Rengar does !

Wait another one, Look there is a champion that can come from no were with 700+ Ms and 55% Damage reduction.

Ahris1 votes

Interesting idea! Like it!

Dermott1 votes

I like it.

Some time ago I thought how Garen's R passive could fit to Rengar. According to lore Rengar hunts a lot, seeking for the most powerful and dangerous prey. Since he is played in Jungle reaching the most valuable oponent shouldn't be problem and would encourage in helping losing lane. Thoughts?

hopeful41 votes

Thats a great suggestion actually. Unusual for these forums

Rinký Dinky1 votes

I know Rengar isnt the most popular champion on this boards

You are mistaken my friend. These boards LOVE to talk about how bad rengar's rework was. They want changes.

Not to say thats a bad thing :D

Warkinge1 votes

Does Rengar alert his opponents within 2000/3000/4000 range? If its a yes then this ult is probably too weak, and will push him even further on Bruisery Zoning champion wich i belive does not fit his theme at all.

If no then i suppose we come back to 1400 range (Pre-rework numbers) And then this ult is probably very strong at level 16 and a bit weak at level 6 wich seems pretty fair when it comes to game balance in the first view.

PaffWasTaken1 votes

This is literrally what Riot should've done when they said they wanted Rengar to have "more delayed damage" with their intention of making assassin more tempo-ed, but instead without any logic they gave him the potential to have 400+ AD along with cc immunity and an ability that hits for almost twice his ad...twice. Rengar in early post-rework was an abomination, now he is more acceptable but he dosen't respect the thematic that he should've follow since his release, riot missed their chances with his rework but changing his ult like you said would be AWESOME

Angrychickén1 votes

I would love these changes.

They are so well thought out.

Forhonor3211 votes

I think this has value and could work. It gives more of that hunter feel for hunting your prey but also the stalking feel by having to wait out and analyze your prey to get bonuses before leaping, having that open to a good amount of counterplay. Or at the very least sounds better than Rengar ult, leap and crit for all your health.

Erklin1 votes

I think it'd be a healthy change to his ult, for him and the adc. But what if the enemy team is all tanks? He should get some kind of penetration for that and increase the time between each upgrade. Maybe the 1st upgrade at 4 seconds, 2nd at 9 and the 3rd at 15?

Black T Poison1 votes

Anything sounds better than the current rengar. Really hope they address him sooon.

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