Daily reminder that Veigar is still in a bad spot.

Conturbatio·Jul 18, 2015·97 votes·5,573 views

Ever since the stun nerf, champions with high mobility like Lee sin and Zed can reach him so easily. Why not make the nearest 2 walls to Veigar spawn instantly and the rest spawn gradually till the furthest which would spawn after the full delay? That would help a lot to keep assassins away from Veigar....

Example: Green spawns instantly; Yellow spawns after 0.25 seconds; Red spawns after 0.5 seconds (after the cast time). http://i.imgur.com/1vdJnzd.png[/img]

This was suggested by someone else 5 months ago after the "compensation buffs" but it has been forgotten ever since....

107 Comments

Dusty RodgersJul 18, 201549 votes

You don't seem to understand the pattern. Make super awesome skin, nerf champion to oblivion.

The SoulforgedJul 18, 20151 votes

My friend got it as his free mystery gift and I was jelly... no longer ;*( rip in peace Veigar.

I Main SwainJul 18, 20151 votes

rest in peace in peace

junglerboy16Jul 19, 20155 votes

*rest in pepperonis in peace

WumachineJul 19, 20152 votes

what if the r in rip stands for rip

junglerboy16Jul 19, 20151 votes

Rest in pieces in pepperoni peace.

Boom.

OhthePiplupJul 18, 201510 votes

But the only awesome skin recently was DJ sona......

oh god

OH GOD

WARN THE TOWN FOLKS! MOVE MOVE

junglerboy16Jul 19, 20155 votes

They goofed up Sona and nerfed her first.

Riot made an oopsie with that one.

RrettJul 18, 20154 votes

Make super awesome skin, ~~nerf champion to oblivion.~~ Compensate them for an indirect nerf.

SwapShadowsJul 18, 201521 votes

Well because riot preaches counterplay but still doesn't nerf annie or others with uncounterable stuns.

just usual shit.

ConturbatioJul 18, 201517 votes

The excuse they used was that his E had a huge range compared to other stuns, since he could stun someone at a maximum range of 1025 because the cage has a radius of 375 + 650 ability range. Meanwhile annie's stun proc'd from ult has a total range of 890 (600 range + 290 radius) which is only 135 units smaller, and she's been a popular support ever since season 3 and the only change she got was a base damage nerf and scaling buff so that her mid lane gameplay isn't affected. But Veigar gets nerfed just because Koreans kept spamming him as a support for like 1 week -.-, the only thing he was good at was having a 9.6 cd ability that could potentially stun and MAYBE dealing some fair damage with his ult to ap mid laners. Veigar support was good at locking down opponents while Annie support is STILL good at locking & bursting down opponents.

3tysonJul 18, 20151 votes

Annie did get an aa range nerv making her unable to aa heim turrets risk free

RamuhdoJul 18, 20154 votes

Well, that completely fixed any problem Annie had.

3tysonJul 19, 20151 votes

Annie problem annie had xd

SpecterVonBarenJul 19, 20152 votes

Stop posting on your smurfs, Phreak.

SquidblimpJul 18, 20153 votes

They could have just nerfed the range and I would have been fine, lol.

3tysonJul 19, 20151 votes

They did

SquidblimpJul 19, 20152 votes

Incorrect. They buffed the range from what it originally was, a couple patches after they gave it a delay.

3tysonJul 19, 20151 votes

Actualy she used to have long enough range to hit heimis turrwts without getting hit back by them

i belive ever since they reduced her range she can no longer do this

i remember cause if i played a bot game for a fast guaranteed win of the day and had annie bot mis i noticed she couls easily attack my turrets without taking argo

SquidblimpJul 20, 20151 votes

We're not talking about Annie. We are talking about Veigar's stun, lol. Yes, they did nerf Annie's auto attack range recently. No, they did not nerf Veigar's stun range, they buffed it. Hope that clears things up.

SasogwaJul 18, 201513 votes

People do not know that old stun has never been instant. Unlike Annie, it had a cast time (of 0.25s), but no warnings.

Now it's 0.75 seconds warnings (0.25s during cast time + 0.5 during delay)

Riot just doesn't fucking understand there's a middle. Between 0.75s and 0.25 s there's... you know... other values which would make him be good without being OP --' Also the fact his E is not reliable should imply a delay reduction on his W, which is basically similar to Kog's R but has twice as long (!) delay. I'm starting to think the balance team is really retarded, and I'm not one to blame usually ...

R110Jul 18, 20151 votes

Warning particle display now occurs on cast rather than after cast time.

Patch 5.5

SasogwaJul 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Patch 5.5

Yes. Patch 5.5 changed the Veigar stun from "0.25 cast time without warnings +0.75 s delay with warnings" to "0.25s cast time WITH warnings + 0.5s with warnings." Overall the warnings duration is exactly the same, the total time to pull off the stun is reduced from 1 second to 0.75 seconds.

R110Jul 18, 20151 votes

It also says: Delay before walls appear decreased to 0.5 from 0.75. Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't that mean that the delay is 0.5 second and the 0.25 second cast time is not to be added with the delay, resulting in a total time 0.5 second to pull of the stun, right?

TrídentJul 18, 20155 votes

No, it's .75 seconds total

RrettJul 18, 20157 votes

.25s is faster than you can blink. It's also at the cusp of whats even possible to react too.

To put it in perspective, try dodging a full range malphite ult, this takes even more reaction speed than that, and there's no real idication that he's even using it. For someone with 100 ping like me, that means it'll take at least .5 seconds before a tangible reaction on my part is even recognized from the server with the cast time as a start time. Sorry, but it's not possible to dodge veigar E with only a .25 second delay. you can predict and the enemy can miss, but if left to a robot, veigar would probably never miss an E.

TrídentJul 18, 20153 votes

The .25 delay was only there so Veigar couldn't cast it while moving

Scripts can probably react fast enough to dodge it though

RrettJul 18, 20151 votes

I thought about this.

Best a bot could do is flash, because it won't know where the cage is being casted, it will only know that it's being casted. Even then I'm not even sure the game tells you whats going to be casted until the particle appears.

BârdJul 19, 20151 votes

You can also press S

RrettJul 19, 20151 votes

It's not possible to walk far enough in .25 s to dodge it anyways.

junglerboy16Jul 19, 20151 votes

but stopping can keep you from walking into it if Veigar was being smart and leading you with it.

RrettJul 19, 20151 votes

Well then you just flat out missed your E

I got good enough to instant cast it on the person very reliably. Not as good as dabox but as good as faker.

junglerboy16Jul 19, 20151 votes

no, we're talking about the current ability where it has a delay on it. Of course it was better to try and hit them with an instant stun before, but now that there is a delay casting it right over them usually leaves them enough room to walk out of the ring, where ideally you want them to walk into it or at least be inside the cage rather than outside the cage.

RrettJul 19, 20151 votes

we're talking about the current ability where it has a delay on it

No we're not.

junglerboy16Jul 19, 20151 votes

Not really, .25 seconds is actually just about average human reaction time (which is something like .2 to .3), with a particularly responsive individual being able to react in as little as .15 or less. There have even been some cases of people who react in less than that, with the standard timing system used by the Olympics for a false start in a sprint being .1 second, half of which is there to account for the time it takes the sound of the gun going off to reach the runners. That is 0.05 seconds reaction time, and most proffesional sprinters can achieve times close to that regularly.

For instance, my own reaction time varies between .16 for an extremely fast time when I'm wide awake and energized to .28 if I'm a little tired to .4 or more if I'm very tired, usually hitting about .22 to .24.

You can look up any number of reaction tester websites out there, and they are all very consistent with each other from what I've found.

RrettJul 19, 20152 votes

So lets say you're rocking an 80 ping. So The server learns that it veigar has used his E, now it takes 80ms in order for it to tell you that veigar is now casting, then at best you can react in 220ms(average reaction speed) and move your character, then it will take another 80ms in order to tell the server that you're starting to move. So at best a person can manage 380ms(80+220+80) response time to a veigar E cast, and now remember that stutter animation is noticeably the same as AA, R, and Q. Only one you can notice is different is W.

Pressing buttons moving your mouse, and actually figuring out what you're supposed to do once you finally notice a cast is happening, the cast has already been completed. If you're lucky you have 30ms to do something, and sorry to say, you won't be doing anything with 30ms. Maybe a flash if you had a bot, but no way to no what he was casting or where.

Dodging old veigar E was impossible from cast.

junglerboy16Jul 19, 20151 votes

Oh, yeah I know it was as good as instant cast before, and the delay is a good thing (it effectively gives you about .4 to .3 seconds time to decide how to react now, which is enough for most players to flash if necessary). I was simply pointing out that .25 seconds isn't faster than you can blink or react. You are absolutely right that you don't have much time to react.

MatezoideJul 18, 201512 votes

The DFG compensation was a huge nerf to every champion involved.

You know,mexcept for Ahri because she is special.

TotalJerkJul 18, 20156 votes

They took the damage amp off her charm, and people were flipping out with their sarcastic-compensation-in-quotes comments until they realized she never needed that bullshit in the first place.

I Main SwainJul 18, 20152 votes

I wish they had kept it as is tbh. made her a more interesting champ.

TheRakkunJul 18, 20154 votes

{quoted}

The DFG compensation was a huge nerf to every champion involved.

You know,mexcept for Ahri because she is special.

Bark Bark Ahri Goddamn it Ahri you're a fox not a dog

Slamurai JackJul 18, 201512 votes

New Veigar puts old Veigar to shame even accounting for the delay on the stun. They took a short ranged burst champion and gave him poke, so work with that. Yes, Veigar is more vulnerable to assassins now, but he's a far stronger control mage now than he ever was.

dEUlusionJul 18, 20154 votes

No. This is just flat out wrong.

Davy CrockettJul 18, 20155 votes

You're delusional.

TheFirstGokunJul 18, 201510 votes

I still like new Veigar. He got some nice tradeoffs and still makes me happy whenever I play him. I mean, the delays are reasonable considering his crazy ratios and late game potential. It doesn't even matter if you hit 80% of his Dark Matter, because the remaining 20% of the time chunks like crazy. His ult is point and click, he STACKS AP ENDLESSLY REMEMBER and his stun is still good if you follow up on allied cc. Besides, it STOPS DASHES. That is the strongest counter to champs like Lee Sin. Zed is an easy matchup, at least at my rank. Wait for him to W and then box. If he ults you, you can position yourself so that once he exits invulnerability he lands directly in the wall. Not too hard. TL;DR: Stop whining about Veigar being weak. He has his upsides as well as his downsides.

SquidblimpJul 18, 20154 votes

But you don't hit 80% of Dark Matters. You hit around 40%. That's half his burst. The delay on his stun, while necessary, makes it very easy for someone to walk out. There is also additional counterplay if they don't dodge it: Mercs, QSS, Banshee's. These can be used to avoid his Dark Matter even if you got stunned, due to the delay. You could always Zhonya's his burst too.

What he needs is a way to interact with enemies inside his cage. He currently can't land anything but Q and R if they're inside, and he could also do that if they were outside. See my other post on this thread for my ideas if you want.

Kuroi86Jul 18, 20159 votes

All Veigar really needs is some reworking on his Dark Matter. At current he can't hit it without help. His Even Horizon works well enough but you're going to be trapping people inside instead of stunning them, leaving them room to dodge a good bit of your damage. What he needs is a way to lock down his target so that he can hit his Dark Matter on them. Either make is to that his Q going through the wall of Even Horizon stuns champs on hit, heck you can take down the wall in return so it's not too one sided. Another idea is to have Dark Matter expand when used inside of Event Horizon so that at least part of it hits and isn't just a waste of time and mana. At current all the ability is good for is blowing up minion waves late game.

LordofthepitttJul 19, 20152 votes

Hate Veigar. Don't care about his stun. Just hate the fact that he can insta kill squishies like they are nothing. 'Lemmie just kill you in .49 seconds hurr durrrrr'

IceKingChernobogJul 19, 20153 votes

Zed Leblanc can pop people in half that time

LordofthepitttJul 20, 20151 votes

Not relevant to the thread. This thread is about Veigar. Regardless, just because I hate the fact that Veigar can kill me in under one second, does not mean that I don't also realize and hate the fact that LeBlanc can do the same (a little slower) all while being relatively safe from harm. Same with Zed.