Why are you removing a unique and fun ability from the game?

Gapybo·May 13, 2015·40 votes·3,160 views

Her damaging shield was her bread and butter before the original rework. It has a lot of fun potential and no other champion had a shield like that.

Why did you decide to turn it into just another shield instead of bringing this skill closer to it's former glory??

Maybe it isn't amazing right now but it's still incredibly fun to surprise enemy with a shield bomb on minion when they though they are safe. This was the last bit of the old Karma.

Return the shield bomb

86 Comments

JustMyBassCannonMay 13, 201519 votes

As a Karma player, I embrace these changes fully.

She can now heal her allies again, and instead of having pathetic damage on her Mantra shield, she gets a much stronger shield for her target and allies, on top of the unique MS burst attached to the shield.

No smart Karma player used Mantra with her E for the damage. They used it in situations where the team wanted to initiate a fight and needed the burst of MS and bonus shield.

While I'm a bit saddened by the loss of the Trap Karma play--E-R-W to catch someone out of position while healing a ridiculous amount to survive their counter-attack--I am more than glad to replace that with the damage steroid/team vamp that her W is now offering. Even if it makes Shen a bit jealous.

CindikleMay 13, 20155 votes

RE was her best waveclear for solo lane Karma. It would often take out the caster minions, and a Q would finish the rest. While the shield buff is nice, it's often saved for mobility more than anything. She lost more than she gained here.

RW's heal is less reliable for Karma herself. Although she can use it to full effect without having to be low HP. I would say it's a trade off if she also didn't lose the bonus damage. While this is a buff for support Karma. It's a nerf for every other Karma. Even jungle Karma as she wont have the damage to make the heal worth it in compared to using RQ to kill the target faster(thus less damage).

Now what will really decide if the changes are good or not is the passive. It may be possible to RW someone and have RQ available soon after. 40% CDR Rank 4 R is 21.6s. W ticks every .66 seconds. 3.5s each time. 10.5s. Plus the 2s channel puts R at a 9.1s CD. Getting in 2 AA's and a Q makes this 2.1s. Overall get two R's in a row with this. Pre casting R and using it near the end of it's duration would probably make it so the first Q can be RQ as well.

But this still likely means less overall damage. While you get to RQ sooner. That only makes up for the lost RW damage.

Support Karma got a buff. Lane Karma got a nerf. Possibly gutted. She lost a lot of reliability in her heal and her best waveclear tool. Jungle Karma got a shift in power, but loss of damage will likely keep her from being picked.

Of course all speculation.

GapyboMay 13, 20152 votes

Yeah you understand it. It's a change directed at support Karma while mid Karma definitely doesn't benefit from but it's too soon to tell how much it hurts her. I just don't think support is the role they should focus the most on with her.

Battlecast SonaMay 13, 20156 votes

Or you could Mantra Q and kill the whole creepwave.

There are many games as mid/solo Karma where I did not Mantra E once. I don't understand everyone talking about it like the damage is gdlk - it's not. The damage was never that great anyway. If you're using a mantra charge for damage, Q is better than E 110% of the time.

JustMyBassCannonMay 13, 20155 votes

The only time when Mantra E dealt massive damage was pre-rework, and it was her one and only saving grace before the rework.

Vistha KaiMay 13, 20153 votes

How about Base+AP+25% of missing health AoE heal, hm?

CindikleMay 13, 20151 votes

Increase it's damage by 1% for every 1% HP the main shielded target is missing.

Still weaker than RQ(higher base, lower scaling, requires very low target to come close).

Vistha KaiMay 13, 20152 votes

What are you even talking about? What I said is what pre-rework Karma was doing with her Q.

CindikleMay 13, 20151 votes

I assumed you were stating to change her E's damage to that (for some reason including a heal). You didn't state you were talking about Q since you replied to someone talking about E.

JustMyBassCannonMay 13, 20151 votes

First, that's old Mantra-Q, not Mantra-E.

Second, AP scaling only affected the % missing HP heal portion. It scaled very well, it wasn't hard to get it to 25% of missing HP, but it was always a base 135, plus a base 5% of missing HP.

And it was on a tiny cone, and wasn't very useful outside of healing a tank.

Vistha KaiMay 13, 20151 votes

First, that wasn't even a part of a question.

Second, I remembered it incorrectly.

JustMyBassCannonMay 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho9Ql3lc,comment-id=0005000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2015-05-13T20:31:06.897+0000)

First, that wasn't even a part of a question.

But I did point out, at the end of my comment, that her old heal, while a cool mechanic, was not universally useful.

CindikleMay 13, 20151 votes

True the damage is sub part considering it requires her ultimate and a base skill to do.

RQ doesn't cover enough area to quickly clear a wave. You would have to run ahead of your wave. Kite the melee into the casters then RQ.

If you're built AP RE would often kill the casters and a Q would finish off the melee. If you didn't finish the casters they would easily be finished off with an AA.

Sure this was about the only use it had for a solo lane Karma. But it is important to have good waveclear.

If you don't have an easy target to focus your RQ on RE is also great here. You can throw it on a melee on your team and deal a much wider area of damage and hit units in the back line despite having their tank in your face. Often using E on yourself to reposition for RQ is stronger. But this is still an option. An option she doesn't have anymore. On top of giving your team survivability.

Battlecast SonaMay 13, 20154 votes

Step 1: Stand behind their melee minions Step 2: Throw RQ at the caster wave. Step 3: Clear the entire wave with 1 spell.

Obviously you're not doing this while someone is in lane (unless you have health advantage/spell advantage/whatever), but nerfing EXTREMELY fringe cases of Mantra E being useful for clearing waves while giving her stronger shields for her team is definitely worth.

And you keep saying things like "it's important to have good waveclear". She does. Without Mantra E.

Again, you're saying Karma is going to be "gutted" by these changes when I literally have never Mantra E'd to clear a wave mid EVER (aside from pre-rework) and when the Mantra W heal has actually resulted in me not dying maybe 1-2 times. It's so unreliable and risky that most of the time it's better to just kill your opponent anyway.

You're also ignoring things like Karma being able to W monsters (giving her the ability to use her W to sustain in lane) and the Mantra CD changes (making her Mantras more accesible to her as the game goes on). This was, net, a HUGE buff, to both Karma solo lane and Karma support, while changing some things that were (honestly) only useful in fringe cases and, again honestly, only then barely useful at all.

CindikleMay 13, 20151 votes

Monsters are jungle only. Not minions. She wont be able to use it to sustain in lane. Which would be a waste anyway as a minion doesn't have the HP make it worth it. Her current RW has much better sustain just because it's more reliable. Even with this change, no one's going to RW a monster. RQ will save them more HP because they'll take less damage. Unless they have someone there to help deal damage to make the heal worth it. At best it'd be useful on dragon/baron when they have enough HP and there's enough damage going out to make it worth it. But you want your RQ for your smite to spike the damage and timing in your favor. Only benefit from this is that it gives her another damage ability as a jungler. But it wont help her sustain in the jungle.

W change is the biggest hit to lane Karma. RE is just to top it off.

Having to use RW to heal hurts her damage as it no longer deals bonus damage with the R. And the heal is tied to her target taking damage. So if they can avoid taking too much she gets very little out of the Mantra.

She has OK waveclear. RQ's range is still not optimal as it requires them to be setup just right. Any shift and she'll probably miss 2-3 minions. Maybe lose one to her own minions and take longer to get the rest. This could happen just by her walking up to them. This is only assuming a single wave. If you got to defend a tower with 2+ waves RE will benefit you much more.

The problem is that she's losing two sources of damage for the ability to heal allies and stronger aoe shields(but weaker normal shields). And his is to be made up by having a stronger passive later in the game and a lower CD on her shield.

SnugglePuggle94May 14, 20151 votes

When I solo'd Karma, I don't think I ever Mantra E at all, maybe like one time. I usually poke with Q, then when they are missing some health I go in with W, speed myself up with E to stick the root, and then RQ and ignite if they are getting away and have like 5 health.

TNHA BaritoneMay 14, 20151 votes

I love you JustMyBassCannon I said the exact same thing.

KaipopMay 15, 20151 votes

Too bad she lost her ally healing today. She has been gutted as a midlaner and the "balance" changes have barely done anything for her as support.

ConnceptMay 13, 20155 votes

Because her kit having half of its active abilities competing against each other as being 'worth' or 'not worth' mantraing based on how much damage they dealt, rather than mantrad or not based on the game situation you found yourself in, made for a mechanically unfulfilling kit. Her mantra needs to do things that clearly vary enough from each other that it is an important decision when, where, and how you use each, and having two competing AoE DPS steroids was getting in the way of that.

Not to mention her theme between the duality of war and peace was completely wrecked in that rework, her kit just became damage and more damage with some sustain and a shield as an afterthought. I'm glad to see her theme return with the addition of more supportive elements.

Nameless VoiceMay 14, 20151 votes

These changes reduce the duality in her kit, though? Now E is purely defensive (and Q has been purely offensive since her rework.)

Old Karma had a Q that was offensive, with Mantra adding defensiveness (healing), a Q that buffed allies and debuffed enemies, and an E that was defensive but could be buffed to be offensive. Every spell had both offensive and defensive uses.

ConnceptMay 14, 20151 votes

My support for the thematic changes was mostly aimed at what they did to Focused Resolve and the overall direction of the changes. Nonetheless, from a mechanical perspective, having mantra as two AOE damage sources out of only three possible uses really did crowd her kit, and I think cutting one is a step in the right direction. But I can most definitely see your argument that, from a thematic perspective, cutting the mantrad Inner Flame may be a better option than cutting the mantrad Inspire.

AxestsMay 13, 20153 votes

because a shield that does slight damage when you ult mantra it isn't unique, it's just unneeded. I much prefer the base shield buff.

Vistha KaiMay 13, 20152 votes

Funny, because it is unique.

AxestsMay 14, 20151 votes

is it though?

Vistha KaiMay 14, 20151 votes

Oh, right. Sion argument inbound.

AxestsMay 14, 20151 votes

badumm-tssh, even before rework he had a damage shield drops mike

Vistha KaiMay 14, 20151 votes

Which only works for himself and deals damage only if shield holds at the end of duration.

BrothaMay 13, 20153 votes

Honestly these buffs are awesome. I was against any Karma changes initially, but that damage amp is going to increase her laning power and keep her relevant even when behind. She's already a pretty strong counter to leblanc, but now she's going to take out her earrings and

fuck

bitch

up.

GapyboMay 13, 20152 votes

Her solo lane is ruined. All these changes are focused entirely in cooperation with teammates. While nerfing her sustain and dueling potential.

RaptameiMay 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Her solo lane is ruined. All these changes are focused entirely in cooperation with teammates. While nerfing her sustain and dueling potential.

She's supposed to be a support.

Vistha KaiMay 13, 20152 votes

Don't bullshit me. Even pre-rework Karma was better played mid and support team later as full AP.

Chaotic ReksMay 13, 20152 votes

Lulu ahem

GapyboMay 13, 20152 votes

What about Lulu?

Chaotic ReksMay 13, 20152 votes

she has a shield/bomb shield when used on allies, bomb when dropped on enemies. i believe thats the closest you'll get to shield bombs after this update

GapyboMay 13, 20153 votes

Well yes it's not quite the same, Karma does both at once but it's also cool and it would suck if Riot just decided to remove the enemy cast right?

BrothaMay 13, 20151 votes

Renewal (Mantra + W)

Reworked - both healing and bonus damage removed.
Now debuffs target for duration of tether + root.

    All damage dealt to target is increased by 10% (excludes true damage)

    All damage dealt to target heals Karma for 20% of the damage dealt

    If the damage source is a champion on Karma's team (excluding Karma) they are also healed for 20% of damage dealt

She gets a 10% damage amp which heals her for a portion of the dmg. with a q/ignite/auto/auto + the initial W then W root thats quite a bit of health. Sure it'll be impossible to bait enemies into turret diving you while you sustain them but I think we should wait to hear the verdict on the pbe.

GapyboMay 13, 20153 votes

She will heal no where close to what she does now on her own.

HupsisMay 13, 20153 votes

But "now" she doesn't have to be low health to heal.

Also I'm not sure if they mean 20% of ALL damage dealt to the target becomes healing for Karma or is it just her own damage. Because if it counts all damage (from team mates as well) it is gonna be a beast of a spell.

Vistha KaiMay 13, 20152 votes

But "now" she doesn't have to be low health to heal.

Is this even suppose to be an argument? What, are you telling me, you were using RW when at 80% HP?

HupsisMay 13, 20152 votes

Well yeah? It's much more reliable damage than mantra Q on a single target since it's point and click. You could basically win a trade with it even if you had 80% health. The cd on mantra allows Karma to use her empowered spells quite often.

Mandang0May 13, 20151 votes

Probably because it's best when used on melees, which means it sucks when Karma's played as support.

I'm sure Riot feels the power would be better used elsewhere on Karma's kit, which is why they're removing it from E.

GapyboMay 13, 20153 votes

And she was intended to be a mid laner in the first place. Like Orianna or Lux . I don't know why they keep focusing only on her support secondary attributes while her main role is lacking and suffering for it. Not the first time they did that either Zyra Morgana .

Mandang0May 13, 20154 votes

A champion whose original kit had an AOE heal and a tether that required an allied champion to use effectively was intended to be a mid laner? I have to disagree with you there.

GapyboMay 13, 20152 votes

Just like Lux AoE shield. She still benefited from both those spells, heal also being optional.

Battlecast SonaMay 13, 20154 votes

a champion whose original kit with deathcap + 1 other AP item could burst down 90% of champs in the game with mantra E into Q was definitely mid laner. I think pre-rework Karma was actually garbage as support - she scaled (still does scale) so well with levels that you really want the solo lane exp. The rework actually pushed Karma into a better support area (having a point and click CC ability rather than a weird, pretty much useless for bot lane slow). Pre rework Karma was in no way a support, aside from the fact that she had a shield. The heal was mostly for health swings in trades or for teamfights/objectives.

Mandang0May 13, 20152 votes

Lol wut.

You're using 2 spells and ult to deal 2 spells' worth of damage, and you want me to believe that Karma with a bad build (deathcap + 1 AP item) is bursting down 90% of the champs in the game? Cmon.

Pre-rework Karma had 1.5 spells that were worthless in solo lane, which is why the only spell supposed pre-rework solo Karma players talk about is her mantra'd E.

Once Riot changed mantra W and mantra Q with her rework, that's when Karma became a solo lane champ.

Battlecast SonaMay 13, 20152 votes

That feel when there were games where I oneshot people with Q and Mantra E. Are you really arguing with me about pre-rework Karma?

anyone who isn't a tank died instantly. The secret Karma OP build of 1 AP item (probably with mana regen/CDR) and deathcap oneshotting people. I played it for over 200 games in Season 1 so... fite me bro

Mandang0May 13, 20152 votes

"Secret build" = building AP on an AP champ. Brilliant.

Maybe you played against people who didn't build MR back in the days when you could still do so easily, but I assure you 2 damaging spells with a weak no-pen build wasn't oneshotting anyone with even an ounce of build sense.

Only Play DariusMay 14, 20151 votes

LOL reminds me of all the games as support Karma where i'm desperately trying to save my ADC so I R-Shield them, and the explosion actually gets the last hit on the assassin lmfao, thats the problem with Karma. She's seems more prone to KS'ing than any of the other supports ( Karma Draven is not a very good lane**)**. However, this tether change not only makes jungle Karma viable, but makes it so that she can heal her ally. It brings more direct ally interaction to her kit, reminiscent of the old Karma where Karma and her friend could maneuver the tether to get an AOE root. However, I wish this didn't come at the cost of the shield explosion. Waste of a good particle at the very least.

AudiomancyMay 14, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho9Ql3lc,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-05-14T05:19:35.077+0000) Waste of a good particle at the very least.

My only issue with it. So pretty :c