Still no love for Garen after dozen of patches of being mediocre.

Alenthayn··13 votes·1,670 views

Even Nasus got buffs on the PBE right now.

Even fucking Graves has compensation buffs for his E nerf.

I mean come on, Garen is fucking terrible, both in low elo and high elo, and even the stats prove how pitiful he is:

Bronze: http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/fr/champions/stats/garen/bronze

Has merely a 50.2% winrate, in an elo where he is supposed to "pub-stomp". Wow, I see that huge stomping, he has a 50% winrate.

Platinium: http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/fr/champions/stats/garen/platinum

48.5% winrate, with a small 2.8% pickrate, that is simply pitiful.

And, please, don't give me that "hurr, but garen is a noob champion and is broken in bronze/silver, we can't buff him xDDDDDDDDDDD"

First of all, shut the fuck up. Garen isn't even close to being broken in bronze/silver, you're just terrible if you're losing hard vs him, especially since his rework made him so weak early game.

Second of all, shut the fuck up once again, Riot doesn't balance around Bronze/Silver, otherwise, champions like Amumu, Blitzcrank or Tryndamere would be nerfed. Riot tends to balance around Platinium-Diamond level of rank, in which Garen completely sucks dick.

Third of all, Garen isn't even that noob of a champion anymore. I mean, sure, his kit is simple, but with this new permaslow meta, where every single mid laner and their grandmother build item 3116 , this is almost impossible for Garen to reach for the backline without any mechanical skill. The Garen player now has to play around that huge disadvantage of being permaslowed, especially after item 3009 being nerfed into uselessness, and item 3111 only reducing the duration of the slows, which can already be countered by simply re-applying the slow (since Riot thought giving CDR to every fucking AP item in the game was a good idea)

Why the hell should a player be actually punished for doing well with his champion each time he climbs the ladder? This is pure bullshit, and every Garen main out here have to deal with this fact.

59 Comments

NovaDisk4 votes

Take a look at Garen's Winrate in Masters+, though.

Wait, you can't, because he doesn't have any games played.

http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ http://euw.op.gg/statistics/champion/

Ozag the Mighty3 votes

Fight fire with fire build a mallet on him they wanna slow you, slow them right back. Also build a scimitar, is it meta, no, but it helps in these situations.

Alenthayn7 votes

Yeah, let's build Frozen Mallet, good idea.

Too bad you won't even get to them to apply it in the first place anyway :-)

Alenthayn4 votes

Blame Rylai's for my salty rant.

This item is just cancer.

S0kaX1 votes

As someone said in a comment I saw some time ago: When a post uses the word "cancer" the post can be ignored (This also applies for comments made by the OP)

Critmaster Garen10 votes

{quoted}

As someone said in a comment I saw some time ago: When a post uses the word "cancer" the post can be ignored (This also applies for comments made by the OP)

ok, how about this?

riot deemed permaslows toxic a long time ago. its part of the reason why pre rework skarner was nerfed into the ground and they felt they had to rework him in the first place.

rylais is much much worse than skarner ever was, since it allows a lot of ap champions with already inbuilt ranged cc to permaslow more than one opponent from a distance and to completely shut down champions without excessive amounts of mobility.

S0kaX1 votes

Now that's a post that shows the writer is not a whiny salty kid [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Wombo Jax2 votes

yes rylais is cancer

Critmaster Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ozag the Mighty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho7OzpqW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-05T14:29:15.428+0000)

Fight fire with fire build a mallet on him they wanna slow you, slow them right back. Also build a scimitar, is it meta, no, but it helps in these situations.

ranged slows are more effective than melee slows. basically youd get shut down before youre in position to get in range of the enemy champion to slow him in the first place.

so building mallet on garen wouldnt even help much if he was able to utilize the item very well. because another problem is, since the slow doesnt apply to his spin, he doesnt get much out of it. it overlaps with his silence, and then runs out mid spin. so it doesnt actually give him any additional ability to stick.

Ozag the Mighty1 votes

Ah I wasn't aware it didn't work with his spin...that sux...well there's always the scimitar to help break the slow lol.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ozag the Mighty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho7OzpqW,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-05T15:07:05.901+0000)

Ah I wasn't aware it didn't work with his spin...that sux...well there's always the scimitar to help break the slow lol.

doesnt help against permaslows applied by dots. you can cleanse it on a 90 second cooldown, but that doesnt do shit if the slow is reapplied half a second later.

otherwise garens own slow cleanse would be enough.

NovaDisk1 votes

It'd be nice if the slow cleanse applied a slow resist for the duration of Q. On the other hand, that might be busted as hell too.

NovaDisk1 votes

FM's passive is pretty meh on Garen, since he wants to spin, which means when you combo someone you'll only apply the slow on your Q. If you need to slow your opponents, Randy's is more reliable with a more powerful slow.

FM isn't terrible though, since Garen really likes the HP and AD. It's a reasonably slot efficient item if you need just a little bit more damage. Most of the time you'd just want to get Sterak's instead, but I could see FM being alright if you already have Maw.

Wombo Jax3 votes

First you seem super toxic, calm down

Second, have you ever thought that in bronze the average winrate is NEGATIVE? Because of placements taking new players into silver more people are coming into bronze than leaving it. Having a 50% winrate in bronze corresponds to having a 52-54% winrate elsewhere, garen stomps low elo

Sure he might need small adjustements but nothing major, and in high elo he is crap because he is so predictable and counterpicked so hard. If he cant q onto somebody he is useless, and he has one of the strongest ults in the game

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wombologist,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho7OzpqW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-10-05T14:39:31.542+0000)

First you seem super toxic, calm down

Second, have you ever thought that in bronze the average winrate is NEGATIVE? Because of placements taking new players into silver more people are coming into bronze than leaving it. Having a 50% winrate in bronze corresponds to having a 52-54% winrate elsewhere, garen stomps low elo

Sure he might need small adjustements but nothing major, and in high elo he is crap because he is so predictable and counterpicked so hard. If he cant q onto somebody he is useless, and he has one of the strongest ults in the game

Darius If anyone in high elo wanted a strong execute from a juggernaut I guarantee you that TEN OUT OF TEN TIMES this guy will be chosen.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wombologist,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho7OzpqW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-10-05T14:39:31.542+0000)

First you seem super toxic, calm down

Second, have you ever thought that in bronze the average winrate is NEGATIVE? Because of placements taking new players into silver more people are coming into bronze than leaving it. Having a 50% winrate in bronze corresponds to having a 52-54% winrate elsewhere, garen stomps low elo

Sure he might need small adjustements but nothing major, and in high elo he is crap because he is so predictable and counterpicked so hard. If he cant q onto somebody he is useless, and he has one of the strongest ults in the game

im not sure that argument holds.

if garen was exceptionally strong in bronze, hed still win a lot more games down there than he loses, and people would use him to climb out of that elo, not drop into it by playing him.

his winrate should still reflect his actual strength fairly accurately.

NovaDisk1 votes

Follow the OP's link. You'll see that, according to League of Graphs, in Bronze, Garen is 69/132 in winrate (at least at the time i checked it). This makes Garen a slightly worse than average champion, even in Bronze.

Lugg2 votes

Garen is fine, it's just that so many tops right now are OP or broken.

Dominick Destine3 votes

{quoted}

Garen is fine, it's just that so many tops right now are OP or broken.

By definition that means OP is right.

If everyone else is stronger than Garen, that means Garen needs buffs.

Yordle Hentai3 votes

That just leads to power creep, what we need are nerfs to the champions that are too strong atm

Dominick Destine3 votes

{quoted}

That just leads to power creep

Irrelevant.

If Garen was overnerfed then it is not power creep to fix him, if everyone else was overbuffed then the power creep already happened anyway and Garen is just being brought up to current level. Your argument is garbo.

Lugg2 votes

Garen DEFINITELY hasn't been overnerfed. He is still pretty strong since he only needs to build one MR item and one armor item to be a tank. The rest of his items can be pure damage.

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

He is still pretty strong

Nonsense.

He is incredibly weak and needs buffs, the statistics support this.

Lugg2 votes

His stats suck because idiots blind pick him him top and end up facing Kayle Ryze Jayce Kennen Quinn .

If you pick him against Tryndamere Riven Irelia Yasuo Jax etc, he's freelo.

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

If you pick him against Tryndamere Riven Irelia Yasuo Jax etc, he's freelo.

Maybe in extremely low bronze. But Garen is pure garbage against anyone that is even remotely competent.

Every single one of those utterly obliterates Garen in lane and doubly so late game.

NovaDisk1 votes

Jayce is actually a much easier matchup for Garen than Tryndamere or Yasuo (At least in higher brackets).

Garen's tough enough to absorb Jayce's poke, then be useful later.

In bronze, though, Garen can wreck Tryndamere, Yasuo, or any toplaner that isn't ranged.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Jayce is actually a much easier matchup for Garen

Jayce is an extremely hard counter to Garen.... what are you even talking about?

The moderators always delete my posts and give me a warning when I refer to rank, but in this case I don't think they will have an issue with me saying; Garen is only effective in bronze or similar brackets. He is absolute garbage against anyone that even remotely knows what they're doing.

NovaDisk2 votes

Here's the thing:

Garen loses lane to Jayce, Tryndamere, Yasuo, and many, many others.

Jayce can win every trade and deny Garen almost all his farm, but he won't be able to kill him under turret unless he's fed (assuming Garen manages his health properly).

Also, Garen reaches a point that he gets too tanky for Jayce to kill.

So while Garen loses lane to all 3 of those champions mentioned, Garen is less susceptible to getting killed over and over by Jayce, and Garen has a point in the game where he's tanky enough to clear waves safely and provide his team with a useful front-line.

Yasuo and Trynd are stronger than Garen early, mid, and late, and Garen can never have any hope of countering their split push.

So while Jayce is an extremely hard counter to Garen (As many champions are), Jayce is not as oppressive to Garen as Trynd or Yasuo are.

The same thing goes for other lane bullies that Garen has no chance to trade with or kill, such as Kennen and Pantheon. Their poke is oppressive, and can deny Garen farm, but cannot deny him exp or kill him, without jungle help. Similarly, Garen can wave clear against these champs in the mid-game.

An example of a lane bully that Garen has no win condition against is Quinn. She gets to poke Garen all lane long and can win the mid-game before Garen gets the items he needs to be useful. A good Teemo can also shut Garen down basically all game long.

Garen's strongest in Bronze, and viable up through Plat, although he starts to struggle around P1/P2 and becomes generally unplayable above Low Diamond.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Garen loses lane to Jayce, Tryndamere, Yasuo, and many, many others.

The prosecution rests.

Jayce can win every trade and deny Garen almost all his farm

Lol. Beating a dead horse.

We already know Garen is garbage, he needs buffs.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

{quoted}

His stats suck because idiots blind pick him him top and end up facing Kayle Ryze Jayce Kennen Quinn .

If you pick him against Tryndamere Riven Irelia Yasuo Jax etc, he's freelo.

Tryndamere and Irelia (with her W) can sit in Garen's spin and out-damage him. In the case of Tryndamere, he also doesn't give a single shit about Garen's silence. Jax may be able to as well, but he can just play safe and farm against Garen easily. Yasuo out-maneuvers Garen and pokes him, and of course outscales him. The only one Garen actually "beats" in lane is Riven, but Riven will outscale him and be more useful. Might even be able to duel him as well. The other four will definitely destroy him 1v1 late game.

NovaDisk3 votes

Garen DEFINITELY hasn't been overnerfed.

In Bronze.

He is still pretty strong

In Bronze.

The Deckowner1 votes

What is wrong with a champion having medicore performance and 50% win rate? That is balanced.

redniwediS5 votes

50% is his bronze win rate, and it goes down as the rank goes up. If you're using win rate to describe how balanced a champion is you have to look at the overall win rate, not just the win rate for bronze.

The problem is that his win rate has been falling for quite some time. Other champions have had buffs to compensate for problems they are having, but Garen has been ignored. Garen used to be fairly competitive in good hands, even in higher ranks. If you really wanted to you could put time and effort into making him work as far up as diamond. He is just not competitive anymore.

To put it simply it's fine if a champion has a low win rate, and even when they have a low play rate. When it becomes a problem is when the small group of people who main said champion all start to see their win rate go down at the same time. That is not a sign that things are balanced.

The Deckowner1 votes

You know, most players in bronze has like a 40% win rate, a champion with 50% win rate in bronze is actually very op.

redniwediS4 votes

Those two win rates rarely even correlate with one another. To say they have some sort of causal relationship would just be silly.

The Deckowner1 votes

if the average wage of doctor is higher than the average wage of all workers, it means doctors are richer than the average workers.

if garen's win rate in bronze is higher than the average win rate of all champions in bronze, he is stronger than the average in bronze.

your math is very bad.

redniwediS4 votes

It has nothing to do with math and everything to do with you not knowing how numbers correspond to one another.

Player win rates do not directly correlate to champion win rates.

The Deckowner1 votes

Bronze players having 40%(made up number) winrate over all=EVERY CHAMPION played by these players has an average win rate of 40% in bronze.

Did you even graduate high school? no actually this should be taught in middle school.

NovaDisk1 votes

If you check LeagueOfGraphs, following the OP's link, you'll see Garen is 69/132 in winrate (Lower than the average champ).

While it's possible that less than 50% of Bronze games are won, the difference is small i.e. 49.5% probably being a more realistic number at this point in the season.

And, I thought I'd add, using ad-hominem attacks to counter a mathematical argument not only invalidates your argument, but makes you appear not very intelligent. You might want to fix that.

redniwediS1 votes

Don't bring in insults unless you're prepared to back up what you're saying with something that is correct.

You just said that a player with an average win rate of 40% has an average win rate of 40% on every champion they play. Take a good, hard look at what's wrong with this and just let the thread end. Neither of us need to continue this.

The Deckowner1 votes

Bronze players having 40%(made up number) winrate over all=EVERY CHAMPION played by these players has an average win rate of 40% in bronze.

The total average winrate of bronze player=total average win rate of all champions in bronze is what im saying.

it is sad people don't read carefully before pointing the finger at others.

redniwediS2 votes

How dense are you...

What exactly does the average win rate of all champions in a given rank have to do with the average win rate of one champion in said rank? You could have a champion well above the average so long as there is also one well below.

We are talking about one champion here. We're talking about a champion who has seen his win rate fall at all levels of play, though most dramatically at the higher end, and has been passed by when it comes to compensation. That is the topic of this thread.

You can view a 50% win/loss rate as overpowered if you like, but I'm going to stick with the facts.

NovaDisk1 votes

50% win rate

In Bronze.

Lower winrates at higher brackets.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Guys. Riot has already said they plan to nerf Rylai's in the preseason. Garen doesn't need a buff, he's punished by the current meta. Once Rylai's gets nerfed, Garen will be just fine again.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho7OzpqW,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-10-06T15:11:22.309+0000)

Guys. Riot has already said they plan to nerf Rylai's in the preseason. Garen doesn't need a buff, he's punished by the current meta. Once Rylai's gets nerfed, Garen will be just fine again.

its not just the current meta.

even if we took rylais out of the picture, he loses a lot of lanes early on after his rework. that in itself wouldnt be an issue, but due to nerfs to a lot of his items over the course of the season, his 4 to 6 item effectiveness also took a huge hit to the point where his weak early game isnt compensated by a decently strong mid to lategame anymore.

basically he gets beaten in lane by other top lane carries, and outscaled by them later.

there is no reason to ever pick garen, when champions like fiora, yasuo, riven or irelia have a better early, mid and lategame.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The reason you pick Garen is for the long-duration point and click silence. Irelia got nerfed, so her stun isn't as relevant anymore.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho7OzpqW,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-10-07T04:21:56.933+0000)

The reason you pick Garen is for the long-duration point and click silence. Irelia got nerfed, so her stun isn't as relevant anymore.

garens silence was shortened to 1.5 seconds after his rework.

if you want a silence, youd pick chogath instead, who brings a 2 second aoe silence.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

I don't think Cho is particularly good in top lane. I've seen him have more success mid or jungle than top.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho7OzpqW,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-07T04:56:50.345+0000)

I don't think Cho is particularly good in top lane. I've seen him have more success mid or jungle than top.

whenever hes decent, hes also a regular top laner.

top/jungle are usually chos main roles. i cant even remember when ive seen one being played mid.

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