@Riot, @Meddler, Does Irelia lack a sense of identity?

Over Innsmouth··32 votes·2,191 views

In both a gameplay and thematic sense, Irelia seems to lack any kind of identity. At best, the most I could muster up is "really, really, really good synergy with Triforce"

Looking at the other two top-lane, melee-carry, bruiser-slayers; Jax and Fiora, it's quite easy to say who they are and what they do. Jax is (stop me if you've heard this before) a dark and mysterious individual with similarly unknown origins, but is known within Runeterra as the guy who can and will beat your ass with anything from a spiked mace to a fishing pole. His gameplay revolves around on-hit, mixed, sustained damage and hyperscaling into a raid boss that will either clean up and ace you ruthlessly, or backdoor all your inhibs and end the game. Fiora stands for honour, discipline, and pretty pictures and draws (at least part of her appeal) from being a no-nonsense matriarch of a noble household with immense pride, and who can best any man in a duel with little effort. Her gameplay revolves around manipulation of vital proccing, outplaying your opponent with good use of Riposte, and being a threat to absolutely everyone with her %health true damage.

And they both have downtime. Fiora and Jax are both (relatively) vulnerable when their Riposte and Counterstrike respectively are down. Due to the nature of their kits being heavily based on auto-attacking, they're also weaker in 2v1's against them.

Irelia is...really, really, really good at abusing Triforce. She also has innate sustain so it's harder than usual to push her out of lane. If you manage to keep her health low and harass her, you're giving her free access to her completely fair and reasonable stun which she will use to win the trade or all-in. If she's caught low, she can just slurp up a tonne of health back by ulting the wave, whereas Jax and Fiora are either forced back or have to play a risky game in order to get their health back.

I imagine a more dedicated Irelia player could come up with something better, and more flattering.

But my point is, Irelia is an incredibly generic AA-based Fighter-type with an overloaded kit that boasts unfair designs. You could call Fiora overloaded too, but her mechanical ceiling extends beyond aggressively clicking on the enemy and pressing buttons. I have yet to play a lane where Irelia gets her Triforce and I am still able to even match her, let alone beat her - something that doesnt happen with any other Champion in the game.

I'd like to say that she should be Old-Poppy'd and put into such a trashheap state that playing her is a detriment to her team until full build, but I won't, because no Champion deserves that.

I will say that I think she really needs changes, or at least needs to be looked at and should absolutely be one of the "big 6 or 4" that Riot tackles in the eventual Diver Update.

80 Comments

Skias8 votes

Morello had stated in the past that she was designed before they had refined some of their "guidelines" to making champs. She was made to try and make melees able to fight ranged etc and was given every mechanic in the game as compensation. Now obviously, everyone can see the flaws in that design. She's a generic auto attacker who isn't fun for players or opponents. She's a walking pile of stats who's favorite item is also a ball of stats. She has no theme. Its hard to even say floating blade user is her theme because very very little in her kit reflects that.

She needs a Sion level remake. Don't even try to save her current kit. Throw it out and make a new champ out of the telekinetic blade concept because she's wasting a cool design opportunity.

Ralanr4 votes

{quoted}

Morello had stated in the past that she was designed before they had refined some of their "guidelines" to making champs. She was made to try and make melees able to fight ranged etc and was given every mechanic in the game as compensation. Now obviously, everyone can see the flaws in that design. She's a generic auto attacker who isn't fun for players or opponents. She's a walking pile of stats who's favorite item is also a ball of stats. She has no theme. Its hard to even say floating blade user is her theme because very very little in her kit reflects that.

She needs a Sion level remake. Don't even try to save her current kit. Throw it out and make a new champ out of the telekinetic blade concept because she's wasting a cool design opportunity.

"Hmm. Melee seems to be outclassed by range in every way. What do you think we should do?" "Nerf ranged damage?" "Buff melee durability?" "Why not make a single champion who by design alone can win against ranged champions. That'll show that melee can deal with range. This one champion can fix that divide!"

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/010/277/069.jpg

BastionKross1 votes

Even though you have a point, having one champion that inverts the ranged/melee domination is probably he best we can hope for from Riot. The discrepancy between ranged and melee champs in the laning phase has been the subject of contention for years now, and Riot has shown no initiative to tackle this problem.

It would require such a large scale reworking of so many champions that it would only be a preseason project so as to not completely screw over the pro scene. However, as we've seen so far, Riot is going to have their hands full this coming preseason with trying to make DQ work, the assassin class update, probable keystone tuning, and a few choice champion reworks (Warwick, maybe Galio). With all that on Riot's plate, I can't imagine they'd be able to fix ranged/melee interaction until at least next year's preseason.

And let's be real, Riot probably won't be doing it then either.

Until the day comes when ranged champions get some early game damage nerfs or Doran's Shield is made into an item that melees can actually purchase with confidence to keep them safe, I'm completely fine with Irelia hard countering ranged champs in lane.

Ralanr2 votes

Honestly that's why I don't think they should have ever made her. Having a single champion being an answer to a problem of that scale is only going to turn that champion into a problem child. Just look at Mordekaiser's rework when they wanted him bot!

I can understand trying to shake the meta, but trying to build champions for a lane that their class usually doesn't belong too or to heavily combat the meta is going to have disastrous effects! Granted this is a common design idea (Ivern as a support jungler for example) but it usually doesn't go well.

I think it'll probably be around divers where Riot might try to fix the huge advantage ranged has against melee. Or not because we can't push marksmen out of botlane viability.

BastionKross1 votes

Having a single champion being an answer to a problem of that scale is only going to turn that champion into a problem child. Just look at Mordekaiser's rework when they wanted him bot!

Gnar is probably a better example. When he's strong, there's a distinct lack of an entire class in the top lane.

Granted this is a common design idea (Ivern as a support jungler for example) but it usually doesn't go well.

This is true. For as much crap as I give CertainlyT, his want of a melee champion in bot lane is something I support. However, the execution of this idea so far (Yasuo Mordekaiser) has been disastrous at best. All it demonstrates is that:

  1. In order to compete directly with ranged champions, a melee carry champion will require an overloaded kit just to survive the laning phase.
  2. If a champion with an overloaded kit designed for the bot lane isn't specifically forced into the bot lane, they will take their kit to mid or top and unfairly bully opponents there.

Until these two issues are taken care of, melee carries in the bot lane are going to remain a pipe dream unless the entire meta shifts.

I think it'll probably be around divers where Riot might try to fix the huge advantage ranged has against melee.

We can only hope. I wouldn't hold your breath though, Riot has been known to completely drop the ball. And then let it sit in the ground for months before maybe stooping to picking it back up. And then throwing the ball out because it was on the ground too long and buying a new ball to replace it.

To hell with efficiency! - Riot Games Unofficial Motto

Or not because we can't push marksmen out of botlane viability.

We can! We just have to make marksmen viable in other roles outside of being babysat in bot lane (the marksman class update kinda did this with things like Quinn jungle and Corki mid), reduce the value of dragons so that control of the lower half of the map isn't as important early game, convince the pros to start running team comps that have marksmen in a non-bot lane role and the bot lane replaced with two bruisers or something, and finally have those pro teams do well enough against teams playing the current meta that people on the ladder will adopt the new formation as the meta!

Simple![slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Ahristocats4 votes

what stats irelia has to be a ball of stats?

thefuck

Skias5 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HTOhT4h2,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-10-03T14:26:46.714+0000)

what stats irelia has to be a ball of stats?

thefuck

Tenacity, on-hit true damage, free healing, high base stats, gap closer/stun, magic/physical/true damage, good base movement speed. I mean, do I need to keep going?

You literally can't itemize against her if she has the slightest lead. CCing her doesn't even work that well unless you can dogpile her.

Ahristocats4 votes

that's not stats, holly shit. Go look at Gnar if you want a ball of stats champion.

"ccing her doesn't work" yeah it works, if it didn't i wouldn't win against her 100% of the time with darius/singed/nasus.

Skias2 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HTOhT4h2,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-03T16:17:18.015+0000)

that's not stats, holly shit. Go look at Gnar if you want a ball of stats champion.

"ccing her doesn't work" yeah it works, if it didn't i wouldn't win against her 100% of the time with darius/singed/nasus.

Bro, base stats and 100% right click delivered attack steroids are stats. She either has higher stats than you and becomes unbeatable because of the nature of her stun, or she falls behind and becomes a worthless champ. She's poorly designed. Riot has admitted she's a badly designed champ. CCing anything will eventually work, but she has built in tenacity which she can stack more of with merc treads. Tenacity makes CC automatically a worse solution to beating her.

I understand you are super passionate about Irelia for some reason, but like it or not, she's a bad design and will get reworked one day.

Ahristocats1 votes

So darius is a ball of stats too? he gains armor pene passive too, what about alistar?

i don't fucking care about irelia cause i don't main her, she's just a champ i destroy in the morning as a top laner. She's poorly designed? if you say so She's frustrating? if you say so She's a ball of stats? hell no, jax is a ball of stats, ryze is a ball of stats, vladimir is a ball of stats, but someone not gaining any stats via spells isn't a ball of stats.

and the fact that she has tenacity doesn't make you unable to slow her after she uses her Q to run and wait that her W finishes, that's what i always do as darius. Tenacity also doesn't stop you from using permaslows against her, like singed with Rylai making your adc able to fight irelia in teamfight, you also have fling if she uses her Q.

irelia's passive and sustain are so overrated, holly shit.

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HTOhT4h2,comment-id=000300010000000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-04T14:55:41.178+0000)

So darius is a ball of stats too? he gains armor pene passive too, what about alistar?

i don't fucking care about irelia cause i don't main her, she's just a champ i destroy in the morning as a top laner. She's poorly designed? if you say so She's frustrating? if you say so She's a ball of stats? hell no, jax is a ball of stats, ryze is a ball of stats, vladimir is a ball of stats, but someone not gaining any stats via spells isn't a ball of stats.

and the fact that she has tenacity doesn't make you unable to slow her after she uses her Q to run and wait that her W finishes, that's what i always do as darius. Tenacity also doesn't stop you from using permaslows against her, like singed with Rylai making your adc able to fight irelia in teamfight, you also have fling if she uses her Q.

irelia's passive and sustain are so overrated, holly shit.

Those champs don't deliver their entire payload by right clicking you to death. She has no counterplay outside of dogpile her. Darius has free shit he probably shouldn't have, yeah. Vlad, definitely isnt. Jax also is, but his stun has a large telegraph and isn't instant like irelias kit.

Riot has had multiple designers admit she's badly designed, hard to balance and a missed opportunity.

Ahristocats2 votes

jax rightclick you to death lol same for Volibear Vi like i don't know how many champion rightclick you to death

i don't care that riot said she is badly designed, i'm still right against everything you said, she isn't a ball of stats, her passive doesn't make it impossible to play against her

they can rework her, but what i said is still right.

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HTOhT4h2,comment-id=00030001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-04T17:06:41.176+0000)

jax rightclick you to death lol same for Volibear Vi like i don't know how many champion rightclick you to death

i don't care that riot said she is badly designed, i'm still right against everything you said, she isn't a ball of stats, her passive doesn't make it impossible to play against her

they can rework her, but what i said is still right.

You can think that all you like, but there is a reason why she rises from obscurity whenever Trinity Force, the games biggest stat stick, becomes strong. Her base stats are high and everything she has is free shit glued to her autos. She has no purpose.

Ahristocats1 votes

yeah, you can also think all you like that irelia suddenly rises from obscurity when she has triforce, just like 80% of league's champ not buying a trash first item.

biggest stat stick, fucking rofl, Nasus Singed Gnar what are they then? stat collumn? LOL

MEMEME6702 votes

You're misinterpreting what a stat stick is. A stat stick is a champ that just stat checks you in order to determine who wins a fight. They're going to do their (relatively simple) thing, which will generally involve a lot of autoattacking, and if they have high enough stats they win, and if they dont they lose.

Irelia is like that. So is Jax and Nasus (after a point. His gameplay is varied enough in the early stages to not warrant him being called a ball of stats imo, but I digress).

Gnar and Singed? They're not. Singed has moments of being stat-checky, but that's usually when he's either extremely far ahead and can do whatever he wants, or thinks he is and runs into 3 people and dies quickly.

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

You're misinterpreting what a stat stick is. A stat stick is a champ that just stat checks you in order to determine who wins a fight. They're going to do their (relatively simple) thing, which will generally involve a lot of autoattacking, and if they have high enough stats they win, and if they dont they lose.

Irelia is like that. So is Jax and Nasus (after a point. His gameplay is varied enough in the early stages to not warrant him being called a ball of stats imo, but I digress).

Gnar and Singed? They're not. Singed has moments of being stat-checky, but that's usually when he's either extremely far ahead and can do whatever he wants, or thinks he is and runs into 3 people and dies quickly.

A ball of stats champ is a champ. If you read the post, I was obviously referring to Trinity Force, the greatest stat stick in the game.

MEMEME6701 votes

You are not the person I responded to...

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

You are not the person I responded to...

Ah, it showed up as a response to my account. My apologies.

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HTOhT4h2,comment-id=0003000100000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-04T17:56:49.543+0000)

yeah, you can also think all you like that irelia suddenly rises from obscurity when she has triforce, just like 80% of league's champ not buying a trash first item.

biggest stat stick, fucking rofl, Nasus Singed Gnar what are they then? stat collumn? LOL

A stat stick is an item not a champ nub. I was referring to Trinity Force.

Best princess EU1 votes

love how you went from talking of stats, to talking about a champion's kit when you just have to admit that you fucked up by listing irelia as a ball of stats, when gnar and olaf exists

i also love how everytime you get screwed you come up with a new shit like "she's frustrating" (what if people aren't frustrating because they don't suck like you?) "she's badly designed" (why is it you who decides what is bad what isn't?) "she has no purpose" (lol)

Skias2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HTOhT4h2,comment-id=0003000100000000000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-04T18:05:19.030+0000)

love how you went from talking of stats, to talking about a champion's kit when you just have to admit that you fucked up by listing irelia as a ball of stats, when gnar and olaf exists

i also love how everytime you get screwed you come up with a new shit like "she's frustrating" (what if people aren't frustrating because they don't suck like you?) "she's badly designed" (why is it you who decides what is bad what isn't?) "she has no purpose" (lol)

She is a ball of stats. I never said Olaf and Gnar aren't. I didn't realize I was dealing with a butthurt Irelia fan boy that is angry his champ is gonna get scrapped one day. This conversation is pointless. Her rework will happen because she's boring, stat heavy and is just loaded with passive power.

Best princess EU1 votes

yeah i know, cause you're getting bored by playing her means that she is boring XD

Ralanr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HTOhT4h2,comment-id=000300010000000000010000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-04T19:20:46.613+0000)

yeah i know, cause you're getting bored by playing her means that she is boring XD

That's the general understanding yes. I also find her boring.

Ralanr1 votes

Darius isn't a ball of stats because he has to angle his Q and E correctly. While Irelia's ult is the only thing that isn't point and click for her (not targeted I mean).

Ivern and Irelia1 votes

Nunu Nasus Malphite Volibear item 3110 item 3110 item 3110
item 3143 item 3143 item 3143

These are her hardest counters. If you see an irelia just use a combination of these. You will beat her in lane and if you follow her tps you will keep her weak in fights.

sincerely, 2 year irelia main.

Akali is SO HOT4 votes

Her passive got basically gutted for teamfights unless she can isolate herself from the rest of her team which is actually really hard to do unless the ADC is really far away to begin with.

Skias2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HTOhT4h2,comment-id=0003000100000002,timestamp=2016-10-04T04:07:06.524+0000)

Her passive got basically gutted for teamfights unless she can isolate herself from the rest of her team which is actually really hard to do unless the ADC is really far away to begin with.

Yeah, she got gutted because she was building triforce as a top pick and suffocating top lane a few patches back. I never want to live in a world where Irelia is a top 3 pick.

it be lìke that3 votes

now this is right, this is what the OP shoulda said.

It Hertz When IP3 votes

Ironically she would have been a great candidate for Shen's new Spirit Blade mechanics.

Kuiper Cliff8 votes

Her identity is as a comeback champion, even in her lore she only rose to her power after nearly suffering defeat. With her stun mechanic, reliable healing abilities, and incredible burst potential with sheen she is very capable of winning fights where the enemy champion is at an advantage.

That being said, she is closer to the feast/famine aspect of the game than some other champions so if she starts to snowball she snowballs hard and you lose that impression of her. Especially in laning though, she is definitely the comeback queen.

MEMEME6702 votes

This makes no sense.

You're saying a champ that beats you when she's ahead, but also beats you when you're ahead, is balanced?

Kuiper Cliff1 votes

Firstly, this has nothing to do with balance, and everything to do with identity. For example: Rengar's identity has nothing to do with how successful he is at bursting you, it has everything with how you do it(or fail to do it).

Secondly, you are thinking too broadly, if you put her behind you by killing her, and getting more cs, of course she will most likely lose regardless unless she carefully farms up and deny any more kills. What I mean is, during an engage in an even lane she has the ability to turn losing fights around especially due to her stun, and thanks to her healing. You know, making a comeback.

FalconPawwwwnch7 votes

Irelia shouldn't be changed until certain ranged champions get massive nerfs in the laning phase

Not all ranged champions obviously but the ones that can abuse melees hard like Jayce and Kennen

Irelia's one of the only melee champions who can fight them without dying

Akali is SO HOT3 votes

Even then I've been having a ton of trouble against ranged champions lately as Irelia. Idk I just feel like laning against ranged champion as melee this season has been worse than any other season so far, aside from the jayce, kennen, and elise top lane meta (season 2 I think?). Part of it is probably because creep block is worse than ever before so I guess there's that.

Akali is SO HOT5 votes

I've also thought of Irelia as the underdog champion who relies on making comebacks against her opponents to win fights. Her lore and stun reflect that very well. She's also known as the destroyer of ranged laners which has been her "theme" since her release. What I find very iconic about her is her Q and E because of the unique mechanics on both of them.

The conditional stun on her E makes it so both her and her enemy need to make decisions for the most optimal outcome. If Irelia wants to stun her opponent she needs to keep herself at lower health and risk being CCed and bursted down or she can use the slow instead to help chase down or run away from her opponent. Likewise her enemies can risk all inning her and being stunned or timing their burst just right and giving her the slow instead of the crucial stun. The reset mechanic on her Q is probably the most fun thing about her because it gives her the ability to lane against ranged champions as well as dash to minions to catch enemies out.

I feel that what separates her from Jax and Fiora is that while they always want to have the upperhand in a fight she is the mobile fighter that always wants to be at a disadvantage to make the best use of her kit while manipulating her blades to get the job done. Some people feel like the blades don't really fit into her theme with her kit, but in my opinion I think they do just fine. -Surfing on her blades to get from place to place -Activating her hidden power to give her blades energy to deal more damage and heal her -Using her blades to cripple her enemies -Flinging her blades at opponents to weaken them while gaining energy from their damage

Her blades don't need to be flying all over the place to fit her theme. As an avid Irelia player (since season 3) I think her theme is just fine. Those are just my thoughts.

MEMEME6702 votes

Some people feel like the blades don't really fit into her theme with her kit, but in my opinion I think they do just fine. -Surfing on her blades to get from place to place -Activating her hidden power to give her blades energy to deal more damage and heal her -Using her blades to cripple her enemies -Flinging her blades at opponents to weaken them while gaining energy from their damage

Her blades don't need to be flying all over the place to fit her theme. As an avid Irelia player (since season 3) I think her theme is just fine. Those are just my thoughts.

Sure, but telekinetically controlled blades have SO MUCH potential that Irelia just wastes.

Imagine how cool her autoattack animation could be, her blades flying around her like Syndra balls and swooping through the enemy, or something.

And, if her blades were flying around her all the time, they could be passively parrying attacks while she was fighting. This could be represented ingame through a variety of mechanics, but currently it's just ignored.

Irelia just uses stuff that would fit on Warwick and be just as thematically fitting, if not more (except the ult).

it be lìke that4 votes

was on board until you said overloaded. so sick of this term being thrown about willy nilly.

her stun is probably the most balanced in the game tbh, she has to have lower hp than you. it actually has a condition attached to it, it isnt "she pressed w and stunned me"

and once triforce is nerfed, she will be dead again. When it's bad, she is bad. rinse and repeat.

best way to beat her? dive her with your jungle all damn game, force her to sit on her tower. she will inevitably miss a lot of cs until she can get item 3057 her sustain is minimal at best before triforce as well. dive her, farm her, stall her tri force forever.

Nuparu2 votes

Diving an Irelia?

What the fuck? That's like Maokai levels of terrible ideas lol...

it be lìke that4 votes

low level before she has trinity force? she cat do shit. all in her, kill her.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

So the only way you list to beat her is to have your jungler camp her. All game.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that kind of a counter to everyone?

it be lìke that3 votes

no thats the EASIEST way.

she is a bruiser who excels in 1v1 fights once trinity force is made. just bully her early when she is weak and cannot out trade.

every one of these posts is just a circle jerk calling a champion "overloaded"

Skias2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bish im saucin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HTOhT4h2,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2016-10-03T23:39:58.224+0000)

no thats the EASIEST way.

she is a bruiser who excels in 1v1 fights once trinity force is made. just bully her early when she is weak and cannot out trade.

every one of these posts is just a circle jerk calling a champion "overloaded"

This is hilarious. So far, she's had all these themes listed in this thread: comeback champ, bruiser duelist, tank assassin, diver, purposeless.

Noone has any idea what her "intended design" play is because... There isn't one. She's a blank slate. She's whatever items you build on her after trinity.

If you ask people what Fioras theme is in a thread like this, everyone says duelist. That's what she is.

Irelia has no theme.

Evewynn2 votes

If she ever gets a rework I hope she keeps her Triniry Force identity.

Because you're right, that's who she is. Generic bruiser + tri.

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

I know Meddler said she is a high contender to be focused on for the Diver update (though I suppose that goes for about half the other divers are as well), but she has seemed to always be one champ they've had problems balancing her while keeping the psychic blades theme they want out of her. I believe if they can't get her to do what they are looking for after the Diver update, they will probably just give her a VGU, like they are doing with Swain.

Baunjo2 votes

You answered it your first paragraph.

Irelia = item 3078

Ahristocats1 votes

the only thing that makes me bothered is when irelia stuns me just because she has 1 or 2% less hp than me

i don't know, maybe riot can do something for this?

Linna Excel3 votes

I hope they don't. The point of the stun is to punish people who are a little too aggressive against her.

Ralanr2 votes

Or for fighting back and almost winning....

Sorry. Irelia tilts me.

Nuparu4 votes

The stun punishes people for winning trades.

With such a low cooldown and high base damage, that skill needs a change.

No reason for it to function as is. If she's winning, the slow allows her to kill you, and if she's losing, the stun turns the fight so she can then kill you. That's just not quality gameplay.

Ahristocats1 votes

No it's fucking not, the point of the stun is to make you win if you're greatly losing, that's the equilibrium strike

not to make you massively win if you just have 50 less hp than your target

change it to "stun the target to 0.5 seconds then slow for 1.5 seconds, stun duration is increased based on the difference of %HP between irelia and her target capped at 50% hp difference increasing the duration to 2 seconds".

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