@Riot Possible Changes Elise Rework

LankPants··3 votes·2,399 views

Elise as a champion has always been near impossible to balance, She went from being considered useless at launch to being the number one top lane, receiving heavy nerfs and being considered useless again before being picked up in the jungle, once again receiving nerfs and dropping to a sub 45% win rate in solo-que, despite still being an OK competitive pick. Most of her damage is point and click which serves to make her oppressive when ahead and practically worthless when behind. A point and click style also create much of a gameplay identity for Elise, she should be a champ who wants to stay at a range and poke then go in with her spider form to finish the enemy. She doesn't actually play this way however, she builds tanky and often uses repel to get within point blank range before transforming into her human form to land a nearly guaranteed cocoon. This pattern doesn't make sense for Elise, turning into a human at melee range should be a last resort, not a basic combo. I've came up with some ideas to help fix some of Elise's problems and hopefully make her less of a tank and more of an AP mage/assassin hybrid who relies on leading her poke into an assassination from her spider form.

Neurotoxin (human q) It never made any sense to me that this ability does instant damage rather than applying a poison DOT, as it stands it's basically a re-skinned Mundo cleaver. The move has no poisonous properties and in fact Elise has no poisonous properties, which makes no sense considering Elise is based of of black widow and red back spiders, two incredibly poisonous spiders. In order to fix this I am suggesting heavy changes to q to make it a more fitting ability, as well as basing her kit around it to make her better fix her original vision.

  • Nuerotoxin is no longer a targeted ability, rather a narrow (about 30-40 missile width, to put that in perspective Nid's spear has 50 now), single target skillshot
  • Neurotoxin on hit damage reduced from 40/75/110/145/180 +8% (+3% per 100 AP) to 0 damage
  • Neurotoxin range increased to 800 from 625
  • Neurotoxin mana cost reduced to 60 from 80/85/90/95/100
  • Neurotoxin cooldown decreased from 6 seconds to 3.5/3/2.5/2/1.5 seconds
  • now applies a DOT
    • Deals 15/25/35/45/55 (+10% AP) damage per second for four seconds, additional applications of this DOT stack up to 5 times.

Volatile Spiderling (human w) This ability is far better than Elise's q in terms of feel, and as such it only requires minor changes to help it tie into the proposed kit.

  • Cooldown changed to 16/15/14/13/12
  • Damage reduced to 50 (+60% AP) from 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275 (+80% AP)
  • now applies a stack of Nuerotoxin
  • Mana cost changed to 80 from 60/70/80/90/100

Cocoon (human e) Overall probably the ability with the best feel, it fits her kit and it makes sense for Elise to have it, its power is also the main reason why jungle Elise can't be strong. As an on demand, incredibly quick and fairly wide stun it is on of the best ganking tools in the game. I'm aiming to bring down the power somewhat when ganking but keep it at about the same power during sieges and trades.

  • Stun Duration standardised to 1.5 seconds from 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds
  • Stun duration now increases by 0.2 seconds per stack of Neurotoxin on target
  • Missile width increased to 70 from 55 (the change from 70 to 50 was really overkill)

Venomous Bite (spider q) This is Elise's execute ability, this ability has a decent feel but does very little to drive Elise's gameplay. I think that by allowing it a greater range of power, from absolutely worthless to one of the strongest assassination abilities in the game depending on Elise's ability to land her human form skills Elise can become a much more interesting champ.

  • Damage Reduced to 40/65/90/115/140 +5.5% of missing HP (+2.5% per 100 AP) from 60/100/140/180/220 +8% of missing HP(+3% per 100 AP)
  • Damage now increased by 20% per stack of Neurotoxin on target
  • Damage cap VS monsters increased by 10% per stack of Neurotoxin

Skittering Frenzy (spider w) This is another ability that never made much sense to me, looking at the rest of Elise's kit it's clear that she is meant to be played as an assassin/mage hybrid, then there's her w which fits perfectly with a tank or bruiser play style. In an attempt to make tank Elise less appealing I think that shifting some of this moves power should be shifted to a burst pattern and away from her tank play style

  • Attack speed reduced to 30/40/50/60/70% from 60/80/100/120/140%
  • Healing per attack reduced to 2 (+3% AP) from 4 (+4% AP)
  • New effect Elise's next auto attack deals 20/40/60/80/100% increased damage (Increases the physical AA damage and the damage from her ult's passive effect does not interact with on-hits other than ult, would cause the next auto to have 0% crit chance regardless of actual crit)
  • now heals for 40% AP on first Auto Attack

Rappel (spider e) Overall not too bad as an ability, I feel it's in an OK spot at the moment, but it is also one of the reasons that Elise builds tank at the moment, once she uses it to go into a fight she has no way to survive or escape the fight. By allowing an extremely situational partial reset on the ability and reducing the invincibility duration it would help an Elise with a squishier build survive fights

  • Cooldown increased to 26/25/24/22/21 from 26/23/20/17/14
  • Now applies Queens mark to champions that are rappelled to
    • Queens mark causes all spiderlings to focus the target as long as they remain within Elise's vision range, spiderlings gain a small MS bonus running towards marked targets
    • If a target with Queens mark on them dies Elise is refunded 8 seconds of rappels cooldown
    • Queens mark lasts for 6 seconds

Spider Form/Human Form A fundamental ability, not much can be done to change this ability, overall the only change I think should be made is making her spider form CD (not her human form) longer so that her spider form is much more all in and once she transforms back she is vulnerable to engages without the stance change. Also some resists back on her ult, but not the same as they used to be.

  • Spider form CD increased to 20 seconds from 4 seconds (Human form unchanged)
  • Now gains 5% of AP as bonus Armour and MR in Spider form

Overall I think these changes could help to shift Elise away from a Tank and more towards a Mage/Assassin and hopefully allow opponents more ability to play against her (as opposed to I click on you and you lose 10% of your HP with no way to retaliate) and allow a well played Elise to do more damage with a greater chance of surviving a team fight without being a tank.

Sorry about the wall of text, for a TLDR feel free just to read the dot points, they'll probably get the point of the post across just fine. Also the numbers could be very wrong very easily, I've obviously never had a chance to test so I can't really gage the actual power very well.

5 Comments

Saevum1 votes

Read all of it,

The missile width on [E] seems to much. If she cocoon's you, you're dead or will receive a heavy HP loss (Personally, i feel it like a big buff. Just saying). I liked the poison DoT idea on her [Q] Human form. Spider form [W] could synergize with Q's DoT poison. Suggestion: [E] cooldown could be doubled/Tripled (Rappel Spider Form), but with range increased and not needing to "select" an enemy target or neutral target.

Currently:

Its true that if she 'falls back' the 'comeback' its a real struggle if your team is also failing. This is a big problem. And That's why she is not picked so much, she relies on team effort.

About the New Jungle and Elise: She's viable, but only to "control" jungle (for counter-jungle also), objectives, good clearing after lvl 7-9, etc. You cannot carry with her. Takes time to master her skill set/combos. Decent sustain also.

Minor tweaks: The only problem (minor one, but problem) i got with her is the 'minion clearing' (big waves only), those require much more time, and sometimes, you don't have that time at your disposition. Other than that, she's ok.

Try to re-direct the Rework suggestions to her actual weaknesses. The CDR its something, but let's be real, thats the only thing keeping her to be nerfed again. So, im cool with the CDR nerfs.

LankPants1 votes

The ideas for her weaknesses were in her inability to deal damage without landing multiple skillshots and her spider form being a completely all in form.

I don't think a non-targeted rappel would ever work, if the CD was to long it would feel unrewarding and like there will always be a better situation to use it in, and if it's to short it would make fizz look fun to play against.

I did consider Synergy between spider w and human q but it would make her spiderform almost completely useless without poison on targets, meaning after 4 seconds the form becomes worthless, by allowing it to always have full power it gives her spiderform options outside of 'go back into human form'

I understand that Elise can be a powerful competitive pick, but that was part of my original point. She isn't a champ who can be balance for both competitive and casual, she'll always be broken in competitive or worthless in casual.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Every button does 3 things. CertainlyT would be proud.

Your hQ and sQ plan is pretty interesting. Certainly would like to test it.

Your hE change reverts the ability to the state it was before Elise's nerfs, then buffs it further for each Neurotoxin stack. Sounds dangerous.

Your spider form CD change breaks her jungling. I think transformation champs don't play well if they have too long a cooldown on transformation.

LankPants1 votes

I can see your point with the spider transform, I just think that balancing mid/top Elise over jungle Elise is better for the game, since jungle Elise has a habit of becoming a walking stun.

With the E I might have numbers too high on stun duration, but it's not buffing back to pre-nerf, she had a flat 2 second stun pre-nerf and in fact still has a 2 second stun once E is ranked, you would need 3 stacks to get a longer stun than current rank 5. But I can see your point it could easily be dropped to even an 0.5 sec stun wit +0.3 sec per stack if you wanted to make her more relent on q or just to a 1.25 or 1 second stun with +0.2 if it turned out to powerful and you don't want to make her more Q reliant.

Also in some cases more complexity can be used as a power bar, like on Spider Q, you cant just use it as an execute against a guy on 10% hp any more, but if you've landed skills you probably can execute from 15-20%.

Balancee1 votes

I honestly still want Elise to be in the jungle. In my opinion she should definitely still be a bruiser, just not some walking stun bot with low AP ratios. The problem with Elise isn't really her playstyle or the way her abilities WORK, but the way her damage is calculated and the fact that she has no real itemization paths, which leads to her low damage and her being equivalent to that of a stun bot. Elise has no real spikes that anyone should be afraid of. She isn't on par with amazing early - mid game champs (Lee Sin) and she is pretty damn terrible late game too. Elise doesn't really feel like she has a place, and, regarding the meta as it is right now, I don't think the mage/assassin would really fit in anywhere at this point. Honestly, if you really want her to be playable, increase her ap ratios to greater affect the early game and add a passive onto one of her abilities that resets the cd of spider form, much like Nidalee. Make her a counter to tanks. This would absolutely bring her back into the meta and cause a huge shift. Also, make her transformation an auto reset. I do like the fact that her human Q is a skillshot. That would sound fun to use.

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