Adcs complain about Swain and Vlad

Project omen·Jun 24, 2016·49 votes·5,566 views

when they could buy , which guts their healing in fights to the point that they can outdamage their sustain, but they don't, because "it ruins their build", and they would rather come to the boards and complain about these 2 champions's sustain being "broken". It's the same senario with stealth and pink wards, only in this case you can actually inflict grievous wounds in mid and late game. So before you claim something is "op", maybe you should try looking at its counters first.

104 Comments

Over InnsmouthJun 24, 201648 votes

Speaking as a Vlad main/avid Swain player, I'd rather see Grevious Wounds removed entirely and have healing-based Champions (Vlad, Swain, Soraka, Mundo, etc...) rebalanced.

The current "healing is super strong w/o GW and basically nonexistent with GW" is awful. It's only ever fun for one party at a time.

Also ADCs complain about everything. They're the complainer class, this isnt anything new.

Project omenJun 24, 20163 votes

I don't think gw will ever be removed. But yeah, the situation is as you said. Healing is super strong but super weak with gw. My point is that adcs should, for the time being, build gw, since it's easy to do so, since Swain and Vlad are basically as tanky as Brand or Malzahar without the sustain.

Over InnsmouthJun 24, 201612 votes

I honestly don't mind ADC's building Mortal Reminder for GW, since it's a full item and ADC's cannot rush it if they want to have any kind of early game.

What I fucking hate is the fact that GW is so accessible for AD Champions (no health threshold like Morellos, only 800g, applies on both AAs and ability damage), and can really fuck up my laning with little impact into their own builds.

Project omenJun 24, 20162 votes

I don't see it often. I might see a Fiora or a Wukong rushing executioner's calling when they b, but that happens rarely. And even when I see it, it's not that bad. I mean I make it out of the lane phase and then they sell it.

Guyy FieriJun 24, 20164 votes

I've bought Executioners Calling on Gnar before just to deal with a Swain. It's like how tanks used to pick up QSS to deal with the Trundle ult.

Blue Moon WolfJun 24, 20161 votes

If I'm top, I take item 3033 if I see enough healing on the enemy team. If I see a team of MasterYi DrMundo Swain Soraka and ADC with item 3072 , then I'm taking and it's staying unless the game gets really long and I think I'd get better use out of something like item 3812 or . I'm not the marksman, so I'm not expected to deal as much damage as the marksman half the time anyway, plus the 45% bonus armor reduction is great for the tankier champs.

Ariel the CruelJun 24, 20164 votes

Had a game kinda like that a while back. Naturally Shen (me) was the only one to build grievous wounds. item 3033 item 3748 Naturally, they complained how it was a shitty item. Oddly, I was the only one to ever kill Mundo. (>_>)

MelledoneusJun 25, 20161 votes

Well, when you're playing Shen, you normally are the only one who can take down health stacking titans.

Volibear, Mundo, and the juggernauts fear a good Shen.

Ariel the CruelJun 26, 20161 votes

Should probably clarify: this was pre-rework. Back when he didn't deal %health damage.

MelledoneusJun 26, 20161 votes

Ah.

This makes more sense. I would sometimes have to deal with that, although usually we'd have a Vayne on our team or a Brand to deal with Mundo as I locked down their team. Otherwise, Mundo would wreck all the squishies.

And it proves that the rework made him a better duelist overall.

Ariel the CruelJun 26, 20161 votes

Better Duelist, worse tank. I never picked Shen for damage, I picked him to be an immovable object. The changes made him more "different" than "better". Not necessarily a bad thing, but I preferred his function pre-rework. Unfortunately, it leads to a bit of confusion when people see he is my highest mastery champion, but I never play him. XD

MelledoneusJun 26, 20161 votes

The funny thing is he was tanky because his shield was on-demand and he had a health drain mechanic. Even though it was lackluster, the health regained per auto was ~120 with a full tank build.

New Shen is more centralized around creating pressure, in my opinion he's shifted from semi-drain tank to shield tank. He uses his abilities, and when timed right he can be rougly 2-3 times tankier than old Shen with the combination of his W and passive shield procs.

HOWEVER.

I feel his scaling armor should not have been reduced that much. Only Gnar, who gets free armor when he transforms, gets lower armor scaling than Shen. That, and Thresh, who has infinitely scaling armor.

If there was one thing I could give Shen right now, it's some scaling armor. It's way too low for his laning phase and mid game.

Ariel the CruelJun 24, 20162 votes

Speaking as a Vlad main/avid Swain player, I'd rather see Grevious Wounds removed entirely and have healing-based Champions (Vlad, Swain, Soraka, Mundo, etc...) rebalanced.

Removing it entirely would still make sustain champs/comps (vlad, Goat, Mundo, etc.) disproportionately difficult to deal with. However, I do agree with the principle. Grievous Wounds should be a rare situational effect, similar to what they did with spell-vamp. Keep it places where it holds a particular strategic value beyond "Buy Executioner's = Vlad AFK's"; Such as Varus' Desecrate, Ignite, Kat and MF ults. That way if the other team locks in a Soraka, Vlad and Mundo, you still have the ability to counter-act them to some extent. Having it as a rare effect for high value moments, still lets Riot safely gut sustain across the board.

Probably worth noting (since I'm sure someone will bring it up): Riot half-assed this once before when they originally removed executioner's but left in Morello's. Having GW as a passive refreshing application (even when limited to 40% health and less), does not solve the problem. Because they still have to balance sustain champs around the idea of being under permanent GW. If they leave it in as an item, then it should be an actively applied effect, not passive.

Example: Mortal reminder ~~Passive: Applies Grievous Wounds on physical damage for 5 seconds.~~ Active: Target champion suffers grievous wounds for 5 seconds. (60 second CD) or Active: Target Area (think Soraka Silence) applies Grievous Wounds to all enemy champions inside it for 5 seconds. (120 second CD)

That would still allow Counter-building those types of comps/champs without forcing a pass/fail dynamic around the mechanic.

PeelGodDamnitJun 24, 201615 votes

The problem with grievous wounds even existing is that it allows healing to be so strong that I have to alter my build drastically to counter it.

Some comps don't need armor pen. Entire enemy team building squishy? More crit and AS please! oh wait they have swain? booo...

Entire enemy team stacking mad HP and armor? Oh boy, giant slayer passive is great! Oh wait, theres a vlad, I have to get the other one and do less damage to the other 4 enemy champions.

I understand how to counter it. I couldn't have gotten to play without learning how to adapt my builds to the situation. The problem comes when there is only one option for dealing with a situation, and that option removes better options. And before you disagree, look what happened with zed and QSS. Way back when, before mercurial scimitar was actually good, zed had to be nerfed pretty hard because ADC's were forced to build a magic resist item to deal with a physical damage assassin, and that item wasn't even good. Fast forward a bit and mercurial scimitar is buffed and (I can't remember if zed got buffed or if the meta shifted to favor him) zed started to come back. Key word though is "started" to come back. People quickly began building the new and improved merc scimitar and zed was essentially useless. And finally, they nerfed QSS to not remove zeds mark, and now zed is back.

The problem with 1 item fixes is that they are either too strong and nullify the champions they were designed for, or they are too weak except when dealing with that one specific champion, but because that champion exists, you have to forgo the superior option. Right now Mortal Reminder is in the second camp. You're unable to get giant slayer passive (which is FAR better) because vlad and swain simply exist. If riot buffs mortal reminder to not suck so much we'll never see vlad and swain again.

The real underlying problem is the AOE healing these champs do, even during stasis. Zhonyas should disable or reduce self healing, and AOE healing should be massively reduced after the first target.

Project omenJun 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The problem with grievous wounds even existing is that it allows healing to be so strong that I have to alter my build drastically to counter it.

Some comps don't need armor pen. Entire enemy team building squishy? More crit and AS please! oh wait they have swain? booo...

Entire enemy team stacking mad HP and armor? Oh boy, giant slayer passive is great! Oh wait, theres a vlad, I have to get the other one and do less damage to the other 4 enemy champions.

That's the thing with builds. They vary with every matchup and you have a choice depending on who's more of a threat. Swain/Vlad are not tanks, they only have one thing to keep them alive and that is sustain, which can get gutted with grievous wounds, reducing their survivability to a decent level. If a champion used one build for every matchup ever, then something's wrong. Tl;dr: Swain and Vlad without sustain are as tanky as Brand or Malzahar. Champions's builds should adapt to the matchup, or else we'd have 20 items in total.

Over InnsmouthJun 24, 20167 votes

Swain and Vlad are absolutely tankier than an average Mage. Vlad is head and shoulders harder to kill than a generic RoA + Rylai's mage, even without his sustain, because he typically builds resistances. Swain is only less tanky than Vlad due to lacking Vlad's passive.

PeelGodDamnitJun 24, 201612 votes

You're either missing or ignoring a key point I made. Building Mortal Reminder removes my ability to by an item that would be better suited to the rest of the enemy team. For instance. Braum > Ezreal > Vlad > Hecarim > Shen on the enemy team. I really really want Lord Dominiks as an adc because I know the giant slayer passive will deal massive damage to 4 out of 5 of the enemy team, but because of Vlad, I have to take Mortal Reminder instead. An item that literally only effects 1 of 5 enemy champions in a meaningful way. Despite the other option being better for 4 out of 5.

You see the problem there?

Lets try a different, slightly rediculous hypothetical. If the enemy team had four AP champions and 1 AD, but that AD had a steroid that doubled both his Attack Damage and critical strike, how pissed would you be that you have to stack armor despite the enemy team being full AP otherwise? If you don't get armor this 1 champion is going to roll over your team by himself, but if you ignore magic resist his four AP teammates are essentially dealing true damage.

Now I know the analogy isn't perfect, but its good enough to show the problems with mortal reminder.

TL;DR: Healthy build adaptation is building armor pen vs a tanky team, double lifesteal vs thornmail, or more damage and AS vs a squishy team. Being forced to build a sub optimal item because ONE champion will single handedly destroy your entire team without it is not healthy.

KING 5HARKJun 24, 20162 votes

Building Mortal Reminder removes my ability to by an item that would be better suited to the rest of the enemy team

80% of the time that would be LDR so its not that big of a difference unless youre the Kind of AD main that doesnt build LW and does no damage

literally only effects 1 of 5 enemy champions in a meaningful way

Wait so you cant afford to be selfish and have to help out the team? Thats new...

You see the problem there?

ADCs are no exception to the "build situational" philosophy so no, I dont see the problem

TL;DR: Healthy build adaptation is building armor pen vs a tanky team, double lifesteal vs thornmail, or more damage and AS vs a squishy team. Being forced to build a sub optimal item because ONE champion will single handedly destroy your entire team without it is not healthy.

Set your priorities right, is the Vlad the problem -> MR, is the Tank the problem -> MR/LDR, are both behind and useless -> go ahead and build something else, but dont complain about getting shit on by Vlad if you refuse to buy an item for 800 gold that makes half his spells weaker

PeelGodDamnitJun 24, 20165 votes

Ok lets try a different track, see if you get it.

Do you remember when mundo and soraka were both OP? Mundo's sustain immediatly after the mastery rework was rediculous, and soraka after her rework was rediculous. They were both considered highly oppressive during their time despite have a winrate that would suggest otherwise.

No one complained about grievous wounds despite executioners calling being removed in patch 4.20 and being useless before that. There was NO option for AD's to get grievous wounds. Morellonomicons passive back then was

Dealing magic damage to an enemy champion below 40% health inflicts Grievous Wounds to them for 4 seconds.

Its currently 35% with an 8 second duration. In the end the oppressive champions were nerfed, and both of them are in a healthy place since.

The problem with leaving swain and vlad as is and saying "just build mortal reminder" is that you can build comps that take advantage of the fact that you can't get Lord Dominiks. Believe it or not a 15% damage boost to targets with greater health is a HUGE increase in damage for a late game adc.

Or we can look at it from a gold efficiency point of view. Both items have a gold efficiency WITHOUT their passives of %64.81. Lord Dominiks is gold efficient with 160 armor and even HP or 110 armor with 500 HP difference. Meanwhile Mortal Reminder is only gold efficient with 160 armor. The passive can't accurately be calculated, but considering the passive won't have an effect on anyone but sustain champs its safe to say its gold efficiency is garbage in a full on 5v5. In the past riot has removed items that only had very specific use cases, along with completely altering any item/strat/champ that you are forced to buy/play due to it smothering out other choices. They used phrases like "players were being forced to do X because its just flat out stronger than any other choice. That doesn't feel good and we want to introduce meaningful choices to players item builds/champ pools/strategies.

M Dragon14Jun 24, 20161 votes

An item that literally only effects 1 of 5 enemy champions in a meaningful way.

Ezreal most likely has heal and some form of LS, hecarim also heals from his W, and vlad as you pointed out. That's 3/5. Most if not all adc's in the game have LS of some sort, so item 3033 is almost always more effective vs adc's than item 3036 , since other adc's are going to have similar hp to you. Yes, you may lose some damage vs the tanks, but you stop their sustain significantly, which directly reduces the damage you need to dish out to said targets. It's situational, which item builds should be based around anyway.

PeelGodDamnitJun 24, 20163 votes

Ok lets be realistic here kid. Hecarims heal is practically non existant. And an ezreal that builds any more lifesteal than a bork in todays meta isn't playing ez right. Regardless, I don't need more damage vs the squishies. If I wanted more damage vs squishies I'd buy more AD or AS. Not ArmPen.

You do realise no one ever bought mortal reminder before vlad and swains reworks. Mundo and Soraka, previously the two champions that would immediately come to mind when you think of sustain, weren't even worth buying mortal reminder for. Its such a garbage item against one hundred and twenty nine champions, that you wouldn't even bother buying it against the two strongest healers in the game.

The fact that an item designed to counter healers was completely ignored for however long the item has existed tells you its a bad item. The fact that people are buying it now in desperation just to keep 2 champions in check is rediculous.

To look at it from YET ANOTHER ANGLE. Riot has said before that balancing a champion around the existance of a single item that makes or breaks the champ is not healthy for the game. The argument I'm hearing for not nerfing swain and vlad is literally "They're balanced, you just have to buy mortal reminder." Thats not balanced! Thats like balancing EVERY mage around 40% CDR. If you do that you're going to nullify mages that don't normally buy any CDR.

And lets just remember, this isn't a little bit of sustain healing we're talking about. This is going from 10% to 90% in a single burst heal. Thats the textbook definition of anit-fun.

ShonjlJun 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The problem with grievous wounds even existing is that it allows healing to be so strong that I have to alter my build drastically to counter it.

Some comps don't need armor pen. Entire enemy team building squishy? More crit and AS please! oh wait they have swain? booo...

Entire enemy team stacking mad HP and armor? Oh boy, giant slayer passive is great! Oh wait, theres a vlad, I have to get the other one and do less damage to the other 4 enemy champions.

I understand how to counter it. I couldn't have gotten to play without learning how to adapt my builds to the situation. The problem comes when there is only one option for dealing with a situation, and that option removes better options. And before you disagree, look what happened with zed and QSS. Way back when, before mercurial scimitar was actually good, zed had to be nerfed pretty hard because ADC's were forced to build a magic resist item to deal with a physical damage assassin, and that item wasn't even good. Fast forward a bit and mercurial scimitar is buffed and (I can't remember if zed got buffed or if the meta shifted to favor him) zed started to come back. Key word though is "started" to come back. People quickly began building the new and improved merc scimitar and zed was essentially useless. And finally, they nerfed QSS to not remove zeds mark, and now zed is back.

The problem with 1 item fixes is that they are either too strong and nullify the champions they were designed for, or they are too weak except when dealing with that one specific champion, but because that champion exists, you have to forgo the superior option. Right now Mortal Reminder is in the second camp. You're unable to get giant slayer passive (which is FAR better) because vlad and swain simply exist. If riot buffs mortal reminder to not suck so much we'll never see vlad and swain again.

The real underlying problem is the AOE healing these champs do, even during stasis. Zhonyas should disable or reduce self healing, and AOE healing should be massively reduced after the first target.

No offense but I dont wanna hear it about healing being so strong when an ADC just buys BT which is standard in nearly every ADC build and each auto heals them for 200-300 every auto which you can get roughly 2-5 per second.

Thornmail was meant to counter that but we see how much of a joke that item is now since boo hoo ADCs didn't like that it was meant to counter auto attack champs and ADCs fall into that catagory.

PeelGodDamnitJun 25, 20161 votes

Oh give me a fucking break, it takes 1 mis-step and adc's blow the fuck up. Vlad and swain get STRONGER healing, MORE healing, AND they can heal during zhonyas + vlad gets his W invulnerability heal. They're fucking broken.

ZT XperimentorJun 24, 20167 votes

Meanwhile marksmen build; item 3153 item 3812 item 3072 item 3156 item 3139 & item 3031 (with masteries) But riot removes will of the ancients because it was 'too strong'. Yet the morellonomicon requires chunking marksmen down to 1/3 hp before it's anti-sustain becomes effective. The blatant favoritism is disgusting.

Project omenJun 24, 20163 votes

This is hardly news.

FantasySniperJun 25, 20162 votes

Shouldn't it be item 3031 item 3046 item 3072 item 3036 item 3812 item 3139

BluePolarizerJun 24, 20166 votes

ADCs are the complainer class:

tanks strong: too OP I get bursted while I can't even dent them bruisers strong: too OP I get bursted, and even if i escape I get chased down, and I can't dent them. mages strong: too OP I get instantly deleted from offscreen assassins strong: too OP I get instantly deleted and can't touch them supports strong: too OP I get zoned in lane and can't even farm ADCs strong: too OP I can't even farm against that enemy ADC

SwiftKitten88Jun 24, 20166 votes

i agree, adc complaining about them is stupid.. they do have item 3123 and item 3033

however that donest make Vladimir and Swain "not op"

just because 1 person on the enemy team can deal with them shouldn't mean that they can be allowed to be able to 1v4 the other 4 players

Mad King HadesJun 24, 20165 votes

Upvoted, there are too many whiners. Don't nerf something, because he is good. Go look for a different way to play.

Project omenJun 24, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Upvoted, there are too many whiners. Don't nerf something, because he is good. Go look for a different way to play.

I mean, to this day, I still rub my eyes with Vlad's healing, but I went into ranked with him recently and I saw adcs building item 3033 and I couldn't believe how much my healing went down. I could barely make it out alive. Grievous wounds are very effective on sustain champs, but people prefer to not use them, because reasons.

5050BSJun 24, 20165 votes

Its not just that. AD complain about Swain/Vlad healing and yet AD can heal for 100% of damage done. ADC can heal for 20-30% of their MAX HPs in one auot attack. Its BS. Why cant AP do that? Its not like AP have more burst then AD. They DONT. Riot has lost its sh^&.

YumaS2AstralJun 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Its not just that. AD complain about Swain/Vlad healing and yet AD can heal for 100% of damage done. ADC can heal for 20-30% of their MAX HPs in one auot attack. Its BS. Why cant AP do that? Its not like AP have more burst then AD. They DONT. Riot has lost its sh^&.

Well, ADCs have to build lifesteal to do that, while Swain and Vlad have healing built into their kits. Also, lifesteal is reduced by armor, but Swain and Vlad's heals are not reduced by the enemy's magic resistance because their heals do not rely on damage done to an enemy (they used to, though).

I agree that ADCs have too much lifesteal, though, and this is partially because crit multiplies the health regained by lifesteal. This is part of the reason why assassins are designed to deal insane amounts of damage in a combo, because if they don't kill an ADC, this ADC can just lifesteal through their damage. Also, with lifesteal, ADCs can outduel mages just by auto-attacking, which is pretty ridiculous.

Lady HammerlockJun 24, 20164 votes

True i just watched a Swain Struggle when i simply bought item 3123

I hate when the ADC mains complain tho,it doesn't ruin your build very much either because your actually making duelling other AD's easier because they can't lifesteal as much to

MirkhailJun 24, 20163 votes

or only a item 3123 is enough for the mid game

HateDaddyJun 25, 20163 votes

Most ppl who complain abou vlad/swain aren't ADC players, it's people who have to lane against them.

FantasySniperJun 25, 20163 votes

"Because they're building health, and I need to do damage, so item 3036 is better."

You know, because they're entitled little shits.

Project omenJun 25, 20162 votes

Adcs think they are entitled to a build that works for every matchup ever. Problem is, if all roles had a build like that, we'd have 20 items in total and every game would be the same. Then the adcs would complain... again. Adcs complaining is hardly news.

ThePartyLeaderJun 24, 20162 votes

I just main an adc that has grievous wounds on his kit...

Cookimonster316Jun 24, 20162 votes

OOO a varus main

OmiwomJun 24, 20162 votes

I'm an AD main and I love to play against Vlad and Swain. I have to keep proper distance and DPS them down. In my experience the ones complaining about those two are the poor souls who have to lane against them, not the ADC.

warpenguin555Jun 24, 20162 votes

Because most adcs mains have the IQ of 5.

Wiz the GreatJun 26, 20161 votes

[deleted]

warpenguin555Jun 26, 20161 votes

ive played 11 games of ranked this year and you are an obvious adc main. find me a bridge if you want but your jumping with me

hoes and bowsJun 25, 20162 votes

I'm an adc main and I have never found these champions problematic. But I still can't see an actual case that I should get item 3033 against Swain or Vlad, because they need to get in the range of ignite in order to actually do damage, and in the correct meta someone in your team will almost always have ignite, and even if they don't, Mortal Reminder still doesn't seem so good.

BârdJun 25, 20162 votes

It's because 15% damage amp against anyone who is remotely durable, along with all that armor pen, is good enough that most ADCs see it as the only option, even if it isn't.

TWITCHTV ERONATEJun 25, 20162 votes

Thing is, vlad was reworked for him to not be balanced around WotA, now he's balanced around mortal reminder, and as a mostly mage player that fucking sucks. Morellos is garbage cuz you'll barely ever get them below 40% health

PhDs NutsJun 24, 20161 votes

Just brainstorming.

What about item 3036 item 3123 ?

Would suck to use 2 spots like that, and you'd have to get rid of something come full build. I'm just wondering how it would fare mid-game if I had an extra 800g laying around.

Project omenJun 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Would suck to use 2 spots like that, and you'd have to get rid of something come full build.

You just answered your own question haha.

Kuroi86Jun 25, 20161 votes

Pretty certain Vlad and Swain have always dumpstered all over any ADC that gets within range (unless they have half their team backing them of course). Truthfully unless you're a fed assassin or bruiser it's actually a good idea to stay away from these two.

Project omenJun 25, 20161 votes

The only thing that keeps them alive is sustain, nothing else. They don't have the resistances of a tank, but the ones of a generic RoA+rylai's mage, except that Vlad also has his passive. GW gut their healing power and reduce their survivability in fights.