Champions That NEED to be Updated

Frosted Tips··9 votes·5,161 views

Champions That are Obvious:

  • Amumu

  • Dr. Mundo

  • Fiddlesticks

  • Nocturne

  • Pantheon

  • Shaco

  • Udyr

Not so Obvious:

  • Brand

  • Diana

  • Hecarim

  • Janna

  • Karma

  • Kayle

  • Malphite

  • Master Yi

  • Morgana

  • Nasus

  • Volibear

  • Wukong (people just figuring this one out)

Disclaimer 1: I want this to be a discussion I did not explain myself because when I explain people do not contribute any of their own thoughts.

Disclaimer 2: The changes range from minor ability changes like adding something unique to 1 or 2 of the champions previous abilities all the way up to full on reworks.

79 Comments

TillIceCream8 votes

lol where is mordekaiser

ZackTheWaffleMan3 votes

I'm downvoting the post until it's edited in

Frosted Tips1 votes

I have responded to someone else already who asked about Morde, but I will reiterate. Imo Morde is super unique and has an interesting kit. I truly believe if Riot spent the time to fix his coding so he was riddled with bugs he would be in a good spot to just look at is base and scaling numbers.

Ralanr4 votes

While it can be argued that his kit is unique, it fails to fulfill his fantasy of being this evil warlord/Sauron like character because of how much he benefits from having allies around.

Edit: It could be argued that Amumu needs less help than Mordekaiser, as Amumu's kit actually fits perfectly with his character.

Frosted Tips1 votes

I can see that, but I guess I personally weighted certain aspects of each character differently. Some I feel as if their theme/lore is huge and others I feel not so much. And same goes for all other reasons like game health, fun to play as, fun to play against, etc. So I can understand that point of veiw.

Ralanr3 votes

Yeah. Sometimes it’s hard to balance the two. I usually focus thematics first.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Yeah I can completely understand that perspective. Just curious do you have any other thoughts on the list ones you agree or disagree with?

Ralanr1 votes

No, not really.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

There are some champs missing: Rammus Corki Mordekaiser

AMADEUSdotEXE3 votes

Nasus is literally just a timed stat check. Is that a bad thing? You tell me.

Serevas3 votes

Honestly I'm surprised Tryndamere isn't on that list. I personally think his playstyle is entirely toxic to the game as a whole and has been for a very long time.

I think the only one I don't agree with is Karma. She has a lot of depth that requires a lot of playtime to figure out how to utilize her fully, but I think she's solid.

Frosted Tips2 votes

He is annoying and maybe not the most healthy thing in the game I just think everyone I said is more so unhealthy in some way or another.

Karma has nothing unique about her. She just doesn't feel like she needs to be apart of the game rn. I love her but she is just so bland now. And imo she is super surface level on what to do and when to do it.

Serevas2 votes

I dunno I personally feel Tryndamere's ability to ignore that there are champions in the game at all once he gets out of laning phase is more unhealthy than Karma feeling basic.

I suppose I simply don't think champions that can ignore anyone else is in the game, be that offensively(Tryndamere Nasus ) or defensively(Janna ), belong in the game at all. One of my major gripes is that other players should feel like a force that needs to be dealt with or avoided through skilled macro play. Pressing R and standing under tower ignoring them, or being unable to be killed doesn't fit with that.

That's just how I feel about the game personally. I know there are people who entirely disagree, especially people who main Nasus and Tryndamere. I've tried to play both in recent years, but I just can't find the fun in it.

SilverSquid4 votes

I think the only one I don't agree with is Karma. She has a lot of depth that requires a lot of playtime to figure out how to utilize her fully, but I think she's solid.

Excuse me? Karma is an absolute nightmare! She has not a single unique spell. Basic damage spell, basic enchanter shield, a budget LB tether. An "ult" that enhances the basic spell, like so many others, but doesn't even offer good choices (depending on your build only one is good) and her passive is the blandest, unthematic and least imaginative thing possible.

Once you have read her abilities and know how to hit Q you have basically mastered Karma. Anyone that is good with other enchanters or mages can pick her up in no time.

And the worst part? Karma doesn't even have a visual identity. Or character. There is a reason she can't be found in any animations or shorts of any kind. They haven't decided what she is at all. There are hints of twindragons in her kit, in the gamefiles, in her visuals, but they didn't go through with it, now she has green blobs.... instead of her much beloved fanweapons. Instead of those twindragons she could have.

I have played and mained her ever since season 2, but for the past 2-3 seasons, after the mindless removal of her one unique spell (shieldbomb), she is really such a bland mess. I really don't get how people can see any depth in her current kit... Especially since it gets consistently patched out. Meddler called her functional but bland years ago and now they are gonna give her a Rengar/LeBlanc sized update. If you think she is solid, you have to argue with those guys too...

Stray Kat3 votes

Only smack me lightly with the stick, please.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Lol

Stray Kat2 votes

Well I mean, it's not wrong to say Diana needs changes. As she currently sits, it's either I can dive in and blow you up before you even know I exist, while also being deceptively tanky due to my shield on W... Or I can't.

If I can, it's no fun for you(Ask the Liss I played against yesterday, we all felt terrible for her)... And if I can't, my team thinks I'm a troll.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Yeah she suffers from what talon suffered from before his rework

Lunar Lunacy1 votes

Diana is fine, leave her alone.

Stray Kat3 votes

She really isn't fine once you take into account the fact that she's a Diver - AKA the same subclass as J4, Irelia, etc. Her current job is to dive in and literally delete you before you know she's there... Which is fine for a regular assassin, except she's not one. I feel some of her power should be shifted a little bit more defensively, rather than front loaded damage. It all really started with her passive changes making her AS/DPS builds not quite as efficient anymore.

Frosted Tips2 votes

Yeah and I was really looking forward to the Diver update that Riot canceled (unwisely) because she was a prime candidate for getting fixed. Plus many other divers including, Wukong, Jarvan IV, Nocturne, Pantheon, Hecarim, etc. Kinda see how alot of them are on my list also.

Stray Kat1 votes

Indeed. I was afraid of the Diver update, but looked forward to it nonetheless. Then it got nixxed. I don't think Diana needs extreme changes, but maybe something light like targets pulled with her E cause her to heal for 5%-15(Based on level of her E) of the damage she deals to them afterwards, instead of her current AS based passive. Or really anything that replaces a little bit of her "Let's kill things" with "Let's survive while trying to kill something".

Lunar Lunacy1 votes

That AS passive does help her shred towers though. She works really well as a split pusher because of it, especially with lich bane.

Also, ravenous hunter is a good rune.

Stray Kat1 votes

I agree fully, it's amazing for splitting and she still DOES work quite well with a Nashors build, especially for splitting. It's just not as fluid as it once was, and seems the most "Forgettable" part of her kit, to be able to replace it with a little bit of defense instead. Her passive 3rd strike will still tear towers down.

Lunar Lunacy1 votes

My name might not be Diana, but I am a Diana one trick, and I play her 100% as an assassin. Better off just changing her subclass.

In my opinion it's not worth building her recommended ROA+Nashor's first because it's just more effective to go more bursty and one shot people. Mana+attack speed are practically wasted stats when you could just go more AP and penetration, since the AP also makes her W provide a bigger shield... So the more AP you have, the "tankier" you actually are.

Also, AP items aren't REALLY designed for bruisers, and if they are they kinda suck at it. It's either sustain+poke mages, or assassins.

Abyssal mask is a good item I will admit, I do like it. The problem is that it's only really worth taking into heavy AP compositions, or when you have a lot of AP on your own team.

Most of the enemy mid laners and junglers I'm facing lately have been AD, and most enemy teams I face have 3+ sources of heavy AD damage. There is no armor equivalent of Abyssal Mask, pretty much the ONLY option for counter building AD is to build a Zonyahs, which delays other important power spikes.

IN CONCLUSION,

I think we AP users need more options in terms of armor. AP users can stack merc treads+abyssal mask+banshees (some even build spirit visage too, looking at you Vlad and Swain).

But where do we go when we're against Zed, Talon, Yasuo, Jayce, hell even DARIUS mid?

Or what do we do against teams with one AP champion where the rest are all AD, so it wouldn't be wise to build magic resist just to help win lane?

All we can do is rush pure damage and hope to burst them down with nothing but a Zonyahs as a lifeline.

Therein lies the problem with Diana, in my opinion. It's also a problem that I believe exists with Ekko, and Fizz, two "similar" champions (but to a lesser degree because they both have more reliable ways to escape). It's the shop that forces us to play a certain way, not Diana's kit.

A Rod of Ages is sup-par in terms of tanky stats and damage. I want more armor. I don't want to sit here wondering if I should upgrade my Sheen into a Icebourn Gauntlet, or if I should do something silly like build a sunfire cape late (that actually might synergize pretty well with her E, but I mean... I'd really rather have better choices xD).

So yeah, if they want me to switch builds and playstyle from bursty to more bruisery, they first need to give me some tanky items that are actually worth building.

And I repeat, the magic resist items are fine, I DO use them when against heavy AP compositions. The problem is, most games I am against heavy AD compositions.

One more thing to add to this long rant here, is that I have attempted to remedy the situation using runes. You know where that got me? At first I was taking Iron Skin and Second Wind, and Iron skin got removed from the game and Second Wind got nerfed. Next I was using Chrysalis and Bone Plating, both of which got nerfed.

ELECTROCUTE, however, hasn't been changed. Oh, and guess what, they also buffed ignite.

Well okay Riot, I WANTED to build tankier and play safer, but you've doomed me to play glass cannon because it just works better.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Yes I think items are subpar for bruiser ap champions that needs to be fixed too but Diana can't be an assassins because she has no way to escape all assassins can escape sense the assassin update. So she is now classified as a diver so she shouldn't be balanced around being able to one shot people because she has one skill shot that doesn't even have a ton of her damage in it so the rest is point click.

Lunar Lunacy1 votes

To be fair, her ult is versatile and I use it a lot to jump to minions or over walls to jungle camps, so she technically does have an escape, just a conditional one. It works in enough situations that I'd say it's semi-reliable

Frosted Tips1 votes

You can never guarantee those camps are over the wall so at best it is a very unreliable escape.

Linna Excel2 votes

You forgot every champ whose rework I didn't like.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Could you let me know who and we could discuss what we think was successful and not successful in their reworks.

Linna Excel3 votes

Galio - my biggest problem with him is they thematically changed him from a gargoyle grotesque into a golem. He went nuts at the end of last season which screwed up worlds too.

Poppy - overall I liked the rework but her passive is wrong and I think they could have given her a better ult.

Karma - worst rework ever until

Evelynn - I really hated this one on every level. I was hopeful for it, but after seeing it I realized people shouldn't get invested in champs on the rework list.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Galio - Riot was trying to attempt something that imo was beyond stupid. But it did one thing right to the game as an overall. It diverged mid lane. But I agree Galio rework was an udder failure and he should be looked at, but in the time being sense now they would have to think of a whole new concept yet keep what makes Galio , Galio I think they should focus on some neglected champions.

Poppy - Top 3 rework only miss imo is passive. Her ult is fine adds alot to her playstyle. She is a cc machine.

Karma - Agreed and they have had their time to rethink her so they should rework again imo

Evelynn - I like her ult it is weird yet unique and interesting. I like her Q. Main problems are her W and E but I think they still need some more time to work on neglected champions.

Linna Excel2 votes

That's a fair opinion to ask them to work on the neglected champs.

TheMysticWar2 votes

How is Karma not obvious

Frosted Tips2 votes

I'm saying for the general person that plays this game she doesn't have super obvious signs that someone like Pantheon has.

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

I think Blitzcrank should be in the list tbh

Frosted Tips1 votes

I would like to know your reasons why?

C9 Squeeky 2 votes

imo he's a one-ability champion. Some might say the same for other 'Catcher' champions like Thresh/Naut but Thresh has way more utility and Naut has CC. Morg has pushing power and black shield. Pyke I feel is a better version of blitzcrank. Some might also argue that just using his W and walking up is a type of mind game but he more or less needs to land Q to do anything, otherwise your other 3 abilities are useless. Idk, I just feel he's unsatisfying to play unless you land his Q. I won't argue that Q is powerful and potential game-changer, I just think the rest of his kit could use some love. Heck, even just adding a 'Rocket Punch" version of Q if you channel it to knockback the 1st enemy hit adds more dynamic to his gameplay.

Reklaimer1 votes

I think a lot of these champions could use character model, ability visuals and animation updates.

Otherwise, most of these champions do well with what they have, in my opinion.

For instance, I am a Diana main, and I think her kit is well balanced. Her mobility and escape potential is low, so in return she has a lot of damage and sustain. This is a very fun and satisfying play style. However, I don't think a lot of time was put into her animation. When running and then coming to a stop, her character model just jerks into position unnaturally. When using her R, the way she reappears on collision is visually unappealing. She just appears in a default pose.

I would say Malphite could use some love, but I'm afraid if he is given more options in playstyle, with how powerful his ult is, Riot would nerf him as hard as they have nerfed Ornn.

Frosted Tips1 votes

First, I'm only discussing balancing changes visuals are not in mind here.

Second, Diana's kit is unhealthy it has the same problems pre-rework Talon had. Pure feast or famine kit which is not healthy even if it seams ok time to time. I love Diana I think she is super fun but I'm not blind to her being unhealthy. I'm not saying broken I'm saying unhealthy.

The reason Malphite needs to be changed is the same reason Sejuani needed to get changed 99% of their power is in their ults. They need that power spread around or else they will never get to a point of balance and also be healthy for the game.

Reklaimer2 votes

{quoted}

First, I'm only discussing balancing changes visuals are not in mind here.

Second, Diana's kit is unhealthy it has the same problems pre-rework Talon had. Pure feast or famine kit which is not healthy even if it seams ok time to time. I love Diana I think she is super fun but I'm not blind to her being unhealthy. I'm not saying broken I'm saying unhealthy.

The reason Malphite needs to be changed is the same reason Sejuani needed to get changed 99% of their power is in their ults. They need that power spread around or else they will never get to a point of balance and also be healthy for the game.

Good points.

Bobloser35551 votes

Malph is already balanced...I really dont understand what you are trying to say you say you want champs balanced you dont need to change their kit to make them balanced.

Frosted Tips1 votes

First Malphite is not healthy is what I'm saying. Sejuani got reworked because her ult was 95% of her power. Malphite should have the same luxury. He can never be healthy with his current kit. Game health =/= balance only, it also means to have a full kit that has power distributes throughout it.

Lunar Lunacy1 votes

Using your body as a projectile is a lot less safe than using a long range projectile like Sejuani's though. Remember to take that into consideration. When I'm playing Diana, activating W+R+E often accomplishes the exact same thing a Malphite ult would.

Frosted Tips1 votes

{quoted}

Malphite is not healthy and needs change because Sejuani didn't matter if she was safe or not she does just as long as she got a good ult off and same goes for Malphite after that nothing that he does or happens to him really matters so it doesn't matter that he puts himself in more danger.

Same thing I said to Bobloser

Bobloser35551 votes

IMO it is good that Malph has a lot of power in his ulti, because it gives him definite weaknesses and strengths, so in the right hands he can be op but there are ways to play around it if the enemy is smart. IMO it is not a flaw to have champs that can be underpowered or overpowered depending on the situation it gives the game more diversity. you know when you play against a Yasou where you think this champ is weak and other times you think he is so op because of the player behind it.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Malphite is not healthy and needs change because Sejuani didn't matter if she was safe or not she does just as long as she got a good ult off and same goes for Malphite after that nothing that he does or happens to him really matters so it doesn't matter that he puts himself in more danger.

Bobloser35551 votes

man this is how its supposed to be, its what makes Malph unique, he doesnt have to win his lane and he can still win you the game.

Frosted Tips1 votes

There are plenty of champions with ok or not so good laning that are amazing at teamfight and or just in late game in general that don't have ults that take all of their kits power like Vladimir , AurelionSol , Rumble , etc.

Lunar Lunacy1 votes

{quoted}

Champions That are Obvious:

  • Amumu - Disagree

  • Dr. Mundo - Agree

  • Fiddlesticks - Disagree

  • Nocturne - Agree

  • Pantheon - Agree

  • Shaco - Agree

  • Udyr - Disagree

Not so Obvious:

  • Brand - Disagree

  • Diana - Disagree

  • Hecarim - 50/50 on this one, I love his gameplay but he only has two gameplay states, OP and never used

  • Janna - Agree

  • Karma - That depends on what direction we want to go with this champion. Do we want her to be more of a support, or do we want to make Faker happy and make her a more viable midlaner? If we want her in the midlane more, I think she needs the ability to "all-in" make her tether take less than two whole seconds to CC them, 2 seconds is an eternity and she usually ends up walking swiftly away without the cc connecting... But if they buff that, the tradeoff should probably be weaker shielding. Endless kiting and shielding can only get so far. If we want her identity to be mainly support, reduce the range or radius on her Q, or the damage instead. Also look into the strength and duration of her slow. She is both oppressive and safe, but tip it too far either way and it might break her.

  • Kayle - I like Kayle as a champion, but when I tried playing her I ran into this problem pretty often... in spite of her strong slow, speed boost, and ability to increase her range, she is TERRIBLE at kiting because of her immobility and her range isn't increased enough by her E to really make her safe enough to get in range to auto. That's where her ult comes in, it's supposed to keep her alive long enough, but it only really does that job well if she builds bursty instead of AS dps which we like to see. Or, you know, she can build Ardent Censer and focus on using her heal and ult to keep your ad carry alive, but then she's sliding into an entirely different niche...

  • Malphite - Disagree

  • Master Yi - Disagree

  • Morgana - Disagree

  • Nasus - Does his ult make him just a littttttle bit too tanky early, so he becomes a monster before he even gets enough stacks to really BE one? Perhaps. But he's immobile and can be zoned off of minions, so... Maybe just change his passive and weaken wither a bit. His passive shouldn't be lifesteal, wtf?

  • Volibear - Agree, because a voli level 3 charging under you tower and flipping you out of it, then running away after taking like 5+ turret shots is insane.

  • Wukong (people just figuring this one out) - Disagree

Disclaimer 1: I want this to be a discussion I did not explain myself because when I explain people do not contribute any of their own thoughts.

Disclaimer 2: The changes range from minor ability changes like adding something unique to 1 or 2 of the champions previous abilities all the way up to full on reworks.

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