@Riot, could you stop giving us 3 Air Dragons in a row?

DrCyanide·May 25, 2016·37 votes·10,775 views

Whenever an Air Dragon spawns, the general mentality seems to be "Gee, that sucks. Hope the enemy team clears it quickly so we can get a useful dragon next." This mentality seems to be mirrored by the other team, which results in the Dragon sticking around uncontested for a long time (20 minutes in my last game).

But you know what makes it worse? When one team finally caves and decides to clear the stupid thing, only to have another Air Dragon set to take its place.

You know what makes that worse? You guessed it, going through the whole process of waiting, one team giving in and clearing it, and a third Air Dragon being set to spawn.

It's at this point that the only dragon that can come next is the Elder Dragon, because everything has taken so long. Guess what? Even teams without a Dragon to their name at this point value the Elder Dragon, not as a denial, but as something actually decent to spawn in that pit!

Had a game where the Jungler was AFK at about the 20 minute mark, but thankfully we didn't need to care about securing Dragons because they were all Air Dragons. If that's intentional, then great, but if not, can Air Dragon please be made into something useful?

110 Comments

RiotRiot ScruffyMay 25, 201635 votes

IMO lets just buff air dragon :P

Seriously though, dragon balance is an ongoing process. Expect plenty of changes over time.

darkdillMay 25, 20166 votes

Any thoughts on how to buff Air Dragon? Maybe it could give faster recalls, faster respawns, or something else?

RiotRiot ScruffyMay 25, 201620 votes

Ideally we wouldn't have to add an additional mechanic and we could just amp the effects.

If we had to add stuff, things that synergized with the ooc movement speed would be the best. River speed, better homeguard etc.

hopeful4May 25, 20168 votes

There are 2 problems with just amping the effect with Air:

Diminishing returns after you hit the 415 ms cap, which in the current season is hella common and ordinary
If lets say you want to rotate quickly to a sidelane in order to utilize the effect, nothing will happen if there isnt a minion wave close to the enemy tower

Solutions i would propose:

Increase the ms cap or lower the overall mobility in the game (changes to items basically)
Make Air an aura that affects nearby allied minions
Your ideas about river speed etc are also good

Also i personally think that Ocean dragon needs a slight buff (in this case just amping the effect will suffice)

warpenguin555May 25, 20161 votes

did you guys ever think of adding a super rare dragon and gives a really nice effect (maybe permanent, maybe timed)? IDK i think that a hyper rare drag would be cool XD

QuephaMay 25, 201621 votes

{quoted}

did you guys ever think of adding a super rare dragon and gives a really nice effect (maybe permanent, maybe timed)? IDK i think that a hyper rare drag would be cool XD

The only reason people are willing to put up with the RNG element of dragon spawns is the regularity and how telegraphed it is. A hyper-rare, hyper-powerful dragon spawn would be incredibly swingy and every game it appears in would just come down to who gets the dragon at that moment instead of all the things that are supposed to matter in a game of league.

Illâoi Evê SiônMay 25, 20162 votes

How about a Gold Dragon who gives everyone on your team 100 Gold :D

KüramaMay 25, 20164 votes

I'd much rather a permanent buff than 100 gold and too much gold granted from a dragon (if the gold given was increased) would probably be problematic as it would give a team that's already ahead a direct and significant increase in power.

If the team that's behind gets it well good for them, they're back in the game but it's one sided as stated above.

DefendedMay 25, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Ideally we wouldn't have to add an additional mechanic and we could just amp the effects.

If we had to add stuff, things that synergized with the ooc movement speed would be the best. River speed, better homeguard etc.

Just leave air dragon the way it is... People dont realize how good boots of mobi are

Doctor JarvisMay 25, 20161 votes

Mobis give 90 MS for just spending 600 gold (I'm assuming Brown Boots are a given). When you fight for Air Drake, the story goes, there's supposed to be combat; the other team is going to try to stop you, or take it themselves. And the Drake itself is probably going to do some pittance of damage. And it detracts from time you could be spending doing something useful. And after all that, if you've put in the time, effort, and risk, you get...NOT EVEN FUCKING CLOSE TO THE AMOUNT FROM MOBIS

PartholonianMay 26, 20162 votes

Mobis also take up your boot slot, preventing you from buying any other kind of boots. Dragons don't take up inventory slots.

Also, 600 gold per person is way more than old dragon, so I don't see why you'd be surprised that a new dragon is less powerful than that. 3k from a single objective would be nuts; even baron power plays don't always top that and that's including baron itself plus collecting standing gold. 3k worth of stats that don't even take up inventory space would be beyond nuts.

In fact, if you consider mobis as the baseline for valuing out of combat movespeed, then one air drake is worth 1/4 of mobis, or 150 gold per person, about as much as the old dragons.

Is a non-Elder dragon even more difficult to take than a tower? It almost certainly does less damage (although you won't have minions to soak it unless you're Elise or something). Fighting in the pit doesn't seem to be any harder than fighting under an enemy turret and possibly easier. And the enemy doesn't automatically have vision as soon as you start your attempt. A tower, also, is worth way less than upgrading everyone on the team's boots (to any version).

Kaiser RienhardMay 26, 20161 votes

The ooc is garbage, remove the qualifier and it will stop being garbage. There you go

redfeenixJul 4, 20161 votes

Hey scruffy,

Have you considered having 1 of each elemental dragon spawn per game, but in a random order?

What are the pros and cons of having 1 of each drake spawning in a random order, vs having any drakes spawn.

I feel like having 3 infernos is really snowbally and isnt fair to late game teams , etc. 3 infernos is such a huge power buff.

However, having 1 of each dragon might be more balanced.

Thanks for reading

abadhaikuMay 25, 20163 votes

Any chance that rift herald could be replaced by two of the dragons? Say something like only fire and air spawn in dragon pit, water and earth spawn in baron pit until 20 minutes.

Crowe StalkerMay 25, 20161 votes

Problem with that is those dragons stop spawning at 20 minutes and you have to either A) change them to spawn at Dragon pit when those 20 minutes are up, or B) force Elder Dragon to spawn at 20 too.

Also knowing Riot, it would be Air and Earth up top, because they need to make sure Bot has plenty of incentive for camping.

abadhaikuMay 27, 20161 votes

Or they could make the buffs from those two stronger to make up for you only being able to get 1 or 2.

QuephaMay 25, 20164 votes

{quoted}

IMO lets just buff air dragon :P

Seriously though, dragon balance is an ongoing process. Expect plenty of changes over time.

What about just guaranteeing that you don't get the same dragon twice in a row?

RiotRiot ScruffyMay 25, 20165 votes

Getting 2 or 3 of the same dragon has some of the best gains though (from a design perspective). When you are multi stacked with a buff the sharpness in your power is enough that it really starts influencing strategy and decision making.

"We have 3 water, lets get into a poke war and heal up to full before diving that tower."

warpenguin555May 25, 20163 votes

yeah because people can actually use a water dragon, unlike cloud which is just bad

DaenMay 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Getting 2 or 3 of the same dragon has some of the best gains though (from a design perspective). When you are multi stacked with a buff the sharpness in your power is enough that it really starts influencing strategy and decision making.

"We have 3 water, lets get into a poke war and heal up to full before diving that tower."

I think the key here is that Cloud Drake is consistently viewed as by far the weakest variant, and almost not even worth taking unless it's completely free.

It's very possible this is just a perception problem, but it's hard to pit 15 flat Movement Speed against 4% missing health and mana sustain. The value for the second is just so much higher when considering the visibility and noticeable impact, Cloud can't even compare.

RiotMeddlerMay 26, 20164 votes

We've been looking into the dragon buffs a lot this weak and come to the conclusion that, overall at high skill play, they're very close in power. Statistically each of the four buffs has a period in the game where it's strongest, in terms of influence on your chance to win. Air's power's harder to track, and therefore take deliberate advantage of/play against though, which means it doesn't feel as good as the others tend to. We're going to keep looking at the four buffs, particularly in pro play since we usually see the most organized teams there, to see what opportunities there are to improve each of them. Overall though it doesn't look like it would be appropriate to make air feel better using raw power though.

HellioningMay 26, 20162 votes

Okay, now how about at medium to low skill play?

I don't want to get into the whole 'which playerset to balance towards?' debate, and I understand that dragons, as a neutral objective that are not necessary to win the game, are generally a coordination thing over anything else, and as such are better appreciated by more coordinated teams, but I get kinda pissy if changes are made for a playerbase that I'm not in, especially massive, gamechanging stuff like dragon changes.

RiotMeddlerMay 26, 20163 votes

High skill in this context's actually just the top third of the player base (not top third of ranked, but all games, which equates to somewhere in Silver upwards from memory). You personally are certainly in the group dragons are being balanced for as a result, though yeah, the discussion of who to balance for in general's a pretty complex one.

We don't have a good read yet on buff performance in what a lot of people define as 'high skill' (pro play or high diamond plus), so it's not yet clear how air performs in those circumstances overall. That's on our list of things to look at, we can't balance solely for that skill level though certainly.

HellioningMay 26, 20161 votes

...Right. Sorry, I honestly keep forgetting most people are in silver and below.

Generally, the problem with air is that it is, basically, the one that requires effort. Even if you're a bunch of badly coordinated randoms, you can use fire, water, and earth, because they're just passive boosts. Sure, you might not use them optimally, but anyone can use plus AD/AP.

Air, on the other hand, requires coordination to make useful. Out of combat move speeds only matters for roaming and getting back to lane, and given how often roaming is hard if you can't trust your laners, having a dragon be 'you get back to lane faster' is immensely disappointing.

RiotMeddlerMay 26, 20162 votes

Yeah, air does demand more execution to get its benefit. I suspect we might see its effectiveness increase slightly over time as a result as people get more familiar with it.

Statistically Earth and Water also show noticeably increased power with skill level, given the need to poke/delay and focus on objectives respectivelly. Fire's the strongest by a noticeable margin in a context where 'run straight into a full on fight with the enemy' is really common.

HellioningMay 26, 20161 votes

You're just not gonna get people to roam better at low MMR by giving them higher move speed. Yes, people will improve at using air dragon at all skill levels, but until and unless splitpushing becomes meta in bronze, you're going to have air be a disappointment.

Hell, even if I'm playing a roam heavy, rotation heavy champion, air is a disappointment. Everything's a disappointment next to fire, really.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 26, 20164 votes

can you make it out of combat with champions instead of completely out of combat. I mean nobody runs around ignoring jungle mobs. in higher elo all I see is if minions are pushed. they clear jungle mobs. for the most part this is for champions that roam. support or assassin . as the jungler is getting scuttles and csing all the time

Sad TyrantMay 26, 20162 votes

couldn't you pull an ocean drag on it?. make the ooc movespeed only affected by champions. damaging a champ/getting damaged by a champ

KoboldMay 26, 20161 votes

Are you looking at adding Pre game Champ select icons denoting the three Types of dragons that will spawn (not which order just type) to allow teams to have a bit more decision making in champ select so that a team can't get lucky and be a MS/Roam based team and get lucky with a dragon type that is great for them but does next to nothing for the enemy team? (this is a mostly moot point) It would be interesting to see what the addition would change in the professional play level for champion selections based on knowing the dragons that are going to be in the game.

ShadowatomMay 26, 20161 votes

I somewhat agree, and somewhat disagree, because it technically wouldn't have an impact on champion select other than to say what a team could plan for, but if a team can recognize that the enemy team would want to take a dragon that synergizes, then regardless, it would be in the team's best interest to take the dragon whether they can use it or not just to deny it. (That was my disagree).

On the flip side it could potentially continuously shift through several different groupings of champions (at pro play) in which the teams would be focusing around taking dragons in their comps, and since only 3 can spawn in a game, that leaves 4 combinations, so 4 groups of champions (probably a small batch) with several very strong and/or very consistent champions.

From a design perspective though, I don't know if it would work. Most things in the gamespace (in a vacuum) are constant except for the dragons now. The idea in champion select is to build against your opponents and attempt to beat them with bans and picks. Adding the dragons may dilute that by getting teams to instead build around the dragons that will spawn instead of around their opponents/teammates. It also may not be possible (no idea, it depends on how Riot set up the client and PvP.net) to set this up to begin with since the dragons might not have even been selected when champion select comes around. They may be determined right when the match begins.

DaenMay 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Overall though it doesn't look like it would be appropriate to make air feel better using raw power though.

Air has a really nice particle effect when it hits maximum stacks; would it be possible for something like this to be present with one and two Cloud Drakes? I feel like the rotation power of Cloud is actually fantastic, but it's so hard to notice in-game that it's never actually a noticeable effect.

Mandang0May 26, 20161 votes

When movement speed has soft caps that are already very easy to run into with just items, this is less true for Air than for all of the other drakes.

John 13 34May 25, 20162 votes

Give minions a minor movement speed buff/spawn rate. And I mean pretty minor as this would otherwise be game-breaking. Think of it like a mini zz'rot. That would get it to be a little more valued, especially in defending against split pushing compositions.

MhihnjMay 26, 20161 votes

How about extra attack speed?

Captain AishiMay 26, 20161 votes

has it been suggested yet that two dragons of the same type should not be allowed to spawn in a row? pretty annoying to play against a team of snowbally assassins who have early game control only for them to get 3 infernal drake spawns in a row so there's no way to ever get back into the game due to that

KillerKellMay 25, 20166 votes

So... you're telling me the Enemy Team decides to gift wrap you a Free Objective... and your decision is to ignore it?

How about go get the Uncontested Dragon?

Hell, if no one wants it then it should be rather simple to Solo it, right? Wouldn't even have to miss out on other objectives for it.

Then people wonder why they don't know how to close out games and comebacks happen on them... it's because they never learned to take what is given for free.

And if you can't figure out how to make increased move speed out of combat beneficial for you... then that's a you issue. Your 'teams' seem to be rather ignorant.

It's free, uncontested, and gives you a Benefit while denying a Benefit to your Enemies. Take the damn thing and move on. Then you can take the next damn thing because, viola, your team can Rotate way faster thanks to the MS Boost. So now you can rotate Mid for that Open Turret, and they can't stop you because they don't move as quickly.

Duh.

DrCyanideMay 25, 20163 votes

Hell, if no one wants it then it should be rather simple to Solo it, right?

Xerath Veigar Viktor Ziggs No, not really all that easy to solo it.

How about go get the Uncontested Dragon?

I don't think I've seen a team completely ignore the Air Dragons, more that they'll set up wards and go back to their lane, trying to use it to force a team fight. It just feels less valuable than trying to get some damage down on the enemy tower or picking up another jungle camp.

So no one wants it, and they don't really care too much if the enemy gets it, but if the enemy is trying to get it they want to fight it as a way to get gold/pressure other places... Low elo life.

It might be worth pointing out that while Sated Devourer was a thing, it was 50/50 (optimistically) on if your Bronze/Silver Jungler knew that killing Dragon would give them 5 stacks. I think that the other dragons have done a better job of drawing Jungler attention, but the Air Dragon just doesn't have the pull to make it worth the Jungler prioritizing it.

Supreme Senpai69May 25, 20162 votes

I think it's less that "nobody wants it" and more nobody wants to risk dying for it

Hinagiku33May 26, 20161 votes

The issue is that it is not uncontested.

The very act of taking an objective like dragon carries risk. It's an objective that both teams keep warded (even in my low level, normals games it's always warded). If you go for it, you're letting the enemy know that you'll be in a space that's easy for them to surround and force you into a team fight you may not want or be ready for.

Dragon is a non-essential objective; it has nothing to do with winning the game on its own. Fire dragon and Earth dragon at least help you take objectives that actually matter, fire dragon also helps you win fights, and water dragon kinda sorta helps you siege or heal up after a good fight to keep pushing. Air dragon does nothing to affect structures and literally stops working during the most important phase of the game - actually fighting for towers and inhibitors needed to win. Air dragon is not worth dying for and risking the enemy snowballing and/or taking towers while you're waiting to respawn.

KillerKellAug 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H4UIAdHw,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-05-26T04:03:42.524+0000)

The issue is that it is not uncontested.

The very act of taking an objective like dragon carries risk. It's an objective that both teams keep warded (even in my low level, normals games it's always warded). If you go for it, you're letting the enemy know that you'll be in a space that's easy for them to surround and force you into a team fight you may not want or be ready for.

Dragon is a non-essential objective; it has nothing to do with winning the game on its own. Fire dragon and Earth dragon at least help you take objectives that actually matter, fire dragon also helps you win fights, and water dragon kinda sorta helps you siege or heal up after a good fight to keep pushing. Air dragon does nothing to affect structures and literally stops working during the most important phase of the game - actually fighting for towers and inhibitors needed to win. Air dragon is not worth dying for and risking the enemy snowballing and/or taking towers while you're waiting to respawn.

Umm... no. Dragons are NOT always contested. In fact, most Dragons are not contested in Early Games at the Pro Level. If a Team isn't in position, they concede the Dragon and ATTEMPT to pressure a different objective.

Also, you say Fire Dragon and Earth Dragon helps you take Objectives... does Cloud Dragon and the benefit of Non-Combat Move Speed not help you Rotate and Position better, giving you a clear advantage of being first TO these Objectives you value? Which is the entire idea behind the Cloud Drake.

So I'd argue that the most important part of the game isn't the actual fight, but the build up and positioning BEFORE the fight. Executing the proper flank, or having the speed to avoid the dive attempt wasting an Engage attempt by the Enemy. It's these things, the little things BEFORE combat, that usually decide the fight.

Bird GirIJun 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So... you're telling me the Enemy Team decides to gift wrap you a Free Objective... and your decision is to ignore it?

How about go get the Uncontested Dragon?

Hell, if no one wants it then it should be rather simple to Solo it, right? Wouldn't even have to miss out on other objectives for it.

Then people wonder why they don't know how to close out games and comebacks happen on them... it's because they never learned to take what is given for free.

And if you can't figure out how to make increased move speed out of combat beneficial for you... then that's a you issue. Your 'teams' seem to be rather ignorant.

It's free, uncontested, and gives you a Benefit while denying a Benefit to your Enemies. Take the damn thing and move on. Then you can take the next damn thing because, viola, your team can Rotate way faster thanks to the MS Boost. So now you can rotate Mid for that Open Turret, and they can't stop you because they don't move as quickly.

Duh.

I know this is a month old, but you seem to not understand what "tempo" means.

KillerKellAug 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nuke Overlord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H4UIAdHw,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2016-06-20T23:48:02.642+0000)

I know this is a month old, but you seem to not understand what "tempo" means.

I get Tempo. Which is why a lot of Dragons only fall to who ever has Bottom on a Lane Swap, while Rift goes to who ever took Top in a Lane Swap. It's an easy flow to the Objective without having to commit extra Resources because the Resources were already used to be there for the Turret in the first place.

But what people are saying is that Cloud Drake is literally ignored... which means it can be Solo Killed by your Jungle. Because if they send Resources to stop it... then they aren't taking advantage of you being at Dragon, they are instead reacting to your play. So either they Respond, in which case they lose the advantage stop you from getting an advantage, or they stay and push while you Solo Cloud Drake.

Take the Objective... for a reaction, and if no reaction occurs take the free gift.

Ignoring the Cloud Drake, if you consider it useless, just means the Enemy Team never has to respond to your threat of taking Cloud Drake... because you never threaten it. So they get to continue to push what ever advantage they may be looking for instead of having to adjust to your actions.

Also, ignoring Cloud Drake means you are delaying the time until you see a Drake you might actually consider a priority.

Before you get to 4th and 5th Dragon, most of the Dragons aren't even really contested anymore at Pro Level Play... because they don't want to run head first into an Engagement that they weren't already in proper position for. If they are 'Late' they simply concede and move to another objective.

BluePolarizerMay 25, 20164 votes

Cloud is actually extremely strong for my type of playstyle while nerfed Ocean doesn't do much.

I realize that lower elos do not understand many alternative playstyles and think that LCS or solo queue 'carry' is the only way to win.

That is not the problem of the game.

Chess should not be changed to fit the 1200 elo players. It should have rules that make it balanced at the grandmaster level.

Icestar1186May 25, 20164 votes

Chess hasn't had a rule change in hundreds of years. That's a balanced game right there.

I am PacmanMay 25, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Chess hasn't had a rule change in hundreds of years. That's a balanced game right there.

Yeah it is, thats why is so boring to play in almost any level. Thats because after whatever whites piece moves there is always a best next move for both sides and it now comes down to who can memorize all of the different starts.

Their is a thing call "perfect imbalance" for gaming. Look it up its pretty cool.

Icestar1186May 25, 20162 votes

Actually, that's not quite the case. Openings are worth studying, but there are usually multiple openings that work in each situation, and even a basic understanding of opening strategy is enough to get you pretty far.

Live2LetDieMay 25, 20163 votes

You wouldn't be complaining if you were a horse ;)

DREADN0UGHTMay 25, 20163 votes

Whenever I see an air drag pop, I usually focus on getting towers or herald instead. Its just so useless... I got a game with 3 cloud drakes at some point. Sure, I move fast out of combat. But I don't feel the tactical advantage really..

LycanoonMay 25, 20162 votes

When I have enough Life Steal and decent damage, I will go and take the dragon. IDGAF what type it is...I, WILL, CLAIM, IT! Easy 5 ip to add to the tally. Towers swarmed with minions? Lanes completely flooded with enemy minions? Easy CS + Gold...om nom nom. Got a JG being mindless of his/her surroundings?...and their HP is low? Bet ima spank that ass! Got some moron on my team tower diving outta rage, and he manages to drain the HP of the enemy....but the enemy is still in eye sight? I'm taking that KPA for myself!

Gotta be rude, crude, BUT QUIET!...or you get banned, and ruthless in Ranked and PVP. Don't give your enemy the chance to stack that dragon buff regardless of which type it is...PERIOD. That buff stacks and could ultimately make it or break it...especially if you're chasing that penta/ace... HerpaDerp!

[slayer-jinx-unamused] And you're ranked?...really? I'm unranked and I take any and every dragon I can get my hands on! Soraka "Let me guide you..."