Can we talk about Veigar?

manliestdino·Jul 18, 2015·40 votes·3,225 views

Because in my opinion, I think he's ok as he is. Thoughts? Agree? Disagree? Why? Just wondering because many of you want Veigar buffs but I think he's fine the way he is.

153 Comments

TrídentJul 18, 201528 votes

He isn't considered "fine" because he relies on his opponents mistakes in order to use his kit well, among some other things. That's my opinion ^-^

EDIT: I went completely wacko(forgot bout 1 major problem), here are Veigar's two problems:

a) Reliability b) Identity

manliestdinoJul 18, 20152 votes

Could you perhaps elaborate on the "some other things you said"? Just curious. I do believe it's true that Veigar relies on opponents mistakes, I'm just wondering what other things make him not fine.

TrídentJul 18, 201510 votes

Actually, the other problems are so minor, I shouldn't have talked about them xD

It's mostly just that Veigar's reliability is awful ^-^

EDIT: I went completely wacko, here are Veigar's two main problems:

a) Reliability b) Identity

Zenthon PrimeJul 18, 20154 votes

His reliability actually isn't that bad. The cage is still extremely powerful as a control tool (and contrary to popular belief it's actually rare for people to just "walk out of it" when you drop it right on top of them), second to only a few spells (namely Azir's ult). His Q is insanely fast and ult is still a targeted instakill.

His W, though......yeah. Still bad.

TrídentJul 18, 20156 votes

contrary to popular belief it's actually rare for people to just "walk out of it" when you drop it right on top of them),

that only happened in 5.4, that statement was true only then. I took a break from playing Veigar that patch :P

Its reliability as a stun is pure awful, but as cage, it is fine... which brings up another issue people talk about:

What is Veigar's E? A cage? A Stun? A banana? ?!?!?!?!!!

What s Veigar? A zone mage? A burst mage? A poke mage? A short ugly kid? ?!!?!!!!

Hinagiku33Jul 18, 20151 votes

I can't agree that his Q is "insanely fast" - I'm on the East Coat with ~100 ping and I regularly dodge it

Heck, even in ARAM half my team gets stunned by accident because the map is so narrow and it doesn't help much unless his team immediately jumps us. I'm not even afraid of being trapped in the cage, I just dodge his Q then wait for his W and dodge that too.

That cage is so spacious it's ridiculous.

And yeah, his W is possibly one of the worst skills in the game to me

Zenthon PrimeJul 18, 20154 votes

You can dodge almost any skillshot if you play the mind games right. It doesn't change the fact that Veigar Q travels as fast as Ezreal Q (2000).

TyaldanJul 19, 20151 votes

a good veigar will w then wait for you to move to q the free spot, ensuring you get hit by at least one

Loken StoneheartJul 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

a good veigar will w then wait for you to move to q the free spot, ensuring you get hit by at least one

That is actually more than half of his mana pool to land a 60% AP scaling ability.

LlaniteJul 19, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Loken Stoneheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GvsAONo3,comment-id=0001000000000000000100010000,timestamp=2015-07-19T05:00:52.697+0000)

That is actually more than half of his mana pool to land a 60% AP scaling ability.

Free Ap lets him afford mana and low scaling.

Loken StoneheartJul 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Free Ap lets him afford mana and low scaling.

No. No it does not. He doesn't get "Free" AP. He has a trash early/mid game, and has to devote all of his time farming his Q, hoping you don't engage on him and automatically win the fight. It "allows" him to have lower scalings (Read as: Have a weak early game for an average late game)

I don't know any Veigar builds that build mana items. Maybe ROA since its rework? But what does that matter? Its not mana when it matters-- Early/Mid game. Its mana far too little and far too late.

His 60% AP ratio still isn't any better than yours until 50 minutes in, when it does-- what? Maybe like 100-120 more damage? Oh god, 120 damage late game, we're all gonna die~ Oh wait, no we're not. We killed him in laning and he never ended up getting 1k AP.

LlaniteJul 19, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Loken Stoneheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GvsAONo3,comment-id=000100000000000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-19T08:12:48.129+0000)

No. No it does not. He doesn't get "Free" AP. He has a trash early/mid game, and has to devote all of his time farming his Q, hoping you don't engage on him and automatically win the fight. It "allows" him to have lower scalings (Read as: Have a weak early game for an average late game)

I don't know any Veigar builds that build mana items. Maybe ROA since its rework? But what does that matter? Its not mana when it matters-- Early/Mid game. Its mana far too little and far too late.

His 60% AP ratio still isn't any better than yours until 50 minutes in, when it does-- what? Maybe like 100-120 more damage? Oh god, 120 damage late game, we're all gonna die~ Oh wait, no we're not. We killed him in laning and he never ended up getting 1k AP.

1/ Veigar does NOT have low scaling. Some other 4-second CD long-ranged spells for references:

Ziggs: 255 + 0.65 Galio: 300 + 0.6 Kennen: 255 + 0.7 Syndra: 230 + 0.6

0.6 ratio is the standard, not really 'low'.

2/ As said, Veigar hits harder than other mage, his ult can easily hits 2000 dmg with minimal effort. he can afford to build mana, matter of fact, tears->AA is a popular choice, if you choose not to, it's totally your business.

TrídentJul 19, 20153 votes

no.... that's an awful idea.

Q is quite easy to hit, why waste mana for W?

CicoteJul 19, 20152 votes

Yes I completly agree. Veigar has the potentioal to utterly wreck the enemy team, but - as you said - he relies on his opponents mistakes.

Senatus Populusque Romanus!

TrídentJul 19, 20153 votes

Nice FEK Icon x)

_SPQR! _

PhifeJul 20, 20151 votes

Have you played a single game where you dont rely on your opponents mistakes to win?

TrídentJul 20, 20153 votes

No, but other champion's kits aren't as dependent on the enemy making a mistake

PhifeJul 20, 20151 votes

People keep forgetting veigars Ult one shots people. And that his W is an aoe 1:1 ap scaling ability and his Q can hit two targets for .6 ap

Now, given all this information you want him to have an AOE, instantaneous stun? you've got to be fucking kidding me! Look at his raw damage, with recent buffs to ap itemization Veigar can be the most unstoppable force in this game because of his ap stacking mechanic and should be played as a backline squishy who basically says "if you come next to me or this ADC you will die because of it."

If you're playing him and trying to get picks on enemies while sitting in the front you're playing him wrong,

Q: MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 60% AP) W: MAGIC DAMAGE: 120 / 170 / 220 / 270 / 320 (+ 100% AP) R: MAGIC DAMAGE: 250 / 375 / 500 (+ 100% AP)

LOOK AT HIS BASE DAMAGE AND LOOK AT HIS SCALING AP. It's simply retarded, stop trying to play him like azir, and try playing him like veigar.

Side note, Dependancy is a bad term to use for saying a champion can engage a fight or not, one is a defensive champion and others are offensive and, there are others who are supports. Thats how it is simple and plain.

Play Veigar more as a Defensive lineman who doesn't let the other team touch his QB and you'll start seeing more results sooner rather than later.

TrídentJul 20, 20153 votes

Now, given all this information you want him to have an AOE, instantaneous stun?

You're assuming things... I don't want Veigar to have an instant stun, as he's mostly fine balance-wise and is in no **need **of buffs, but some changes(not necessarily buffs) to make more people submit to the Evil Overlord (make him more popular) would be nice. At least, that's my opinion.

You've wrote all of your post for nothing... don't assume things. :P I just responded to the OP as to why people say Veigar needs buffs,

I have no trouble with Veigar; he's a fun champion to play, which is why I main him.

PhifeJul 21, 20152 votes

All im saying is if you love that champion as much as i think you do. You dont want him to become popular or else all these threads will become "nerf veigar" threads.

Thats what happened to my sweet sweet talon....

TrídentJul 21, 20152 votes

Thats what happened to my sweet sweet talon....

item 3070

ItsStoutJul 18, 201513 votes

He needs dark matter to be reliable without using event horizon, or a new spell to push him in a more control mage position.

ShuffledPancakeJul 18, 201510 votes

He isnt good or Fine Mainly cause most mid laners have enough ms to get out of e at all levels (unless in a bush even then flash and dashes will get you out before it drops) He would be good if karthus - vel'koz were good but ekko-ahri-zed-yasuo-etc are fotm

manliestdinoJul 18, 20155 votes

Ah. The thing is, Zed and Yasuo aren't fotm right now. We are now revolving around champs more like viktor, azir, and other immobile mages. We hardly ever see assassins now, except Leblanc and Diana. And remember, his niche is as an AP counter. Lot more AP top laners too, such as Rumble, Ryze, and Vlad. Nidalee jungle is coming back. His niche as an AP counter was one of the reason why he was brought as a support.

ShuffledPancakeJul 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ah. The thing is, Zed and Yasuo aren't fotm right now. We are now revolving around champs more like viktor, azir, and other immobile mages. We hardly ever see assassins now, except Leblanc and Diana. And remember, his niche is as an AP counter. Lot more AP top laners too, such as Rumble, Ryze, and Vlad. Nidalee jungle is coming back. His niche as an AP counter was one of the reason why he was brought as a support.

Azir - nidalee arent immobile same with ryze, they have high ms boost or dashes/leaps

manliestdinoJul 18, 20152 votes

However, Azir loses two abilities at the least or risk getting stunned, and NId loses her gap closer on say, a Hunted high priority target.

ShuffledPancakeJul 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

However, Azir loses two abilities at the least or risk getting stunned, and NId loses her gap closer on say, a Hunted high priority target.

Nidalee has a very short cd gap closer though -

manliestdinoJul 18, 20152 votes

3 seconds cd with 40% cdr, i think that's enough time for a veigar to kill nid provided he land q.

ShuffledPancakeJul 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

3 seconds cd with 40% cdr, i think that's enough time for a veigar to kill nid provided he land q.

He needs to land q w and r to kill her, unless hes fed asf

manliestdinoJul 18, 20152 votes

If nid has a lot of ap, and veigar farmed right and has 1000 ap, he will one shot her with q and r.

The Bearded BardJul 18, 20155 votes

I make a thread like this like every other week and it always gets downvoted into oblivion. +1. Honestly people don't understand the point of a rework. The champion reworked is SUPPOSED to feel different. It just means you need to adapt and relearn how to play it. And occasionally it doesn't work out for you specifically and you end up hating the champion, that's what happened to me with Maokai and now I'm stuck with the name :(

Davy CrockettJul 18, 20152 votes

Most people are upset because we view it as a nerf, rather than a rework. To my information, it wasnt classified as a rework.

TrídentJul 18, 201510 votes

It's classified as a "compensation buff"

TotalJerkJul 18, 20152 votes

I'm guessing it was always supposed to be a rework, but Rioters have a habit of putting their foots in their mouths when it comes to properly articulating what they plan to do.

ZombeezyJeezyJul 18, 20155 votes

Veigar is fine, anyone trying to argue otherwise just aren't good with him.

His E isn't even hard to land, I think people are still like "ermagerd muh delay" and try to use it as if it was instant like it used to be, but if you're any good you'll place it ahead of your enemy's movement and either get them trapped or make them burn flash or mobility.

Once an enemy is trapped there is really not much an enemy can do to get out of it.

IMHO I never liked playing against Veigar for the same reason I hate playing against Nasus - infinite scaling. He has a very passive laning phase that EVEN IF you get a lead on them, they will eventually outscale you by focusing on farming and eventually 1-shot you lategame and this is especially true if you try to play an AP mage against Veigar.

People just need to grow a pair of balls and adapt to Veigars changes, because I've seen a lot of really good Veigars still playing and a lot of bad ones who just don't play around his weaknesses.

TrídentJul 18, 20157 votes

Well, that's quite a rude comment.

ZombeezyJeezyJul 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well, that's quite a rude comment.

Rude? Am I talking to a bunch of kindergarten girls or something?

And this is why I said people need to grow some balls.

TrídentJul 18, 20157 votes

"anyone trying to argue otherwise just aren't good with him."

great logic, great etiquette

ZombeezyJeezyJul 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"anyone trying to argue otherwise just aren't good with him."

great logic, great etiquette

Sorry if the truth hurts but maybe you should man up.

TrídentJul 18, 20157 votes

Rammus ok

TrídentJul 18, 20156 votes

You kinda haven't played him at all this season.

ZombeezyJeezyJul 18, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You kinda haven't played him at all this season.

I don't have to. I'm well aware of his kit and numbers before and after his rework.

God forbid Veigar be balanced, no he has to be overtuned so low-intellect kids like you can faceroll with him.

Please just stop.

TrídentJul 18, 20158 votes

You have no say until you actually play that champion, especially if you're throwing out that "you're bad, you're stupid" card.

ZombeezyJeezyJul 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You have no say until you actually play that champion.

And you're unranked.

LOL.

I've been playing League since it came out of Beta over multiple accounts.

I'll ask you once again -

Just stop.

TrídentJul 18, 20155 votes

Ok Mr. Elitist.

Neo CyrusJul 18, 20152 votes

Sadistic Veigar climbed to Diamond using him, he has alright win rates, and fits certain team comps. That leads me to believe he's alright, but right now there is a ton of changes going on including to his itemization so I would wait until the dust settles to decide if he needs any minor buffs in the new meta.

Phil FlyJul 18, 20151 votes

I personally want dark matter to be hard to hit (like now). But it needs to deal WAY more damage. How come a stray nidalee spear coming from the jungle (that you can't react to) does more damage than something enemies could easily walk away from?

TrídentJul 18, 20156 votes

It already hits like a truck... o.o

It just doesn't do much early game.