Some funny things I noticed about Armor Penetration (Part 2)

TehNACHO··13 votes·1,394 views

The first part of this thread can be found in the Tips and Tricks Section, where I talk about some major differences between Flat Penetration and Armor Penetration. I really hope you check it out, as it provides some context for this second point about Armor Penetration.

So, onto the second point: Assassins and Penetration. I just explained to you guys how Flat Penetration is the weapon you use against targets with low armor values, and what happens to be the general class in the game who's entire job is to shoot down low armor targets?

I just find it close to outright hilarious that item 3035 Percentage Penetration item 3135 items, items designed and mathematically reinforced to be best against targets with high resistances, tend to be so damage per gold efficient on most assassins in the game against low resistance targets. I mean, why is this? Numbers prove that there should be distinct niches for both kinds of penetration in this game; where Flat Penetration is the stat that you invest into to punish people who don't build tanky or for Assassins to optimize for seeking out their squishy targets but falls off towards high armor targets, and where Percentage Penetration is the stat that you invest into to keep the damage dealers capable of fighting tanks and giving people the option to be dedicated tank busters should they itemize for it while sacrificing their viability to fight low armor targets. Why is it then that the Last Whisper or the Void Staff seem to be catch all items to fight any kind of enemy regardless of how much armor they have while still being extremely cost effective against even the squishiest of targets?

13 Comments

Sire Hippington3 votes

the main reason is the change to penetration stacking in S3. In S1/2, flat pen was calculated before %pen and also had slightly higher values over all. Which means if you have 20 flat pen and 25%pen vs 100 armor your total pen is 100-20-((100-20)25%)=80-(800.25)=80-20=60 armor remaining With the new system, % befor flat, you have 100-20-(100*25%)=55 instead. In short, befor S3, X% pen reduced the flat pen by X% aswell, so stacking both pen forms wasn't to effecktive. Now you can go ham on pen, thus Assasins Start brut, go BC or Yomuuns + LW and kill squishys easily while still shreding tanks. There is also the thing with base armor, most squishys will have ~80-90 with runes at lvl 18, so LW with 35% already gives ~28-31.5 arpen, which is 50% more than the highest flatpen item, while also granting 10 more ad. It also makes it harder to further counter the damage by building tanky.

Learn341 votes

Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, someone else who remembers that change.

LankPants3 votes

Just going to quickly drop some maths to reinforce the OP's point.

A character with Pen runes, Last Whisper and Youmuu's running 21/X/X masteries has 38.1% pen and 32 flat pen. If said character hits a squishy with 75 armour

  • 75*.619=46.425~46
  • 46-32=14

This becomes even more stupid when a Black cleaver is thrown in.

  • 75*.46425=34
  • 34-42=-8 Thankfully pen can't reduce armour to negatives so you have 0, but all the way up to 90 armour this combination will reduce you to zero armour.
iamthegoatofwar1 votes

Fun fact you CAN go into negative armor normally nasus has an easy time helping in this quest.

LankPants2 votes

You can, but only to armour reduction not armour pen. And flat armour reduction is the first thing applied so it's pre hard to drop any to negative armour past the early game.

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

True that I'm just showing how fucking retard it can be hahaha. nasus e late game on squishies while your team is focusing them is just so troll.

Done252 votes

Because Riot never got around to making it scale off of bonus stats like they said they were thinking about doing.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

item 3035 : Base Armor is high enough to make the item eventually gold-efficient at their current price point against almost everyone.

item 3135 : item 3020 (which every mage and assassin buys) synergizes incredibly well with %-based penetration, and allows you to basically punch through 50+% of anybody's MR if they did not build two high MR items.

To counter that, it should be possible to increase both items prices by some 300 to 500 gold.

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

No, balance them like Yasuo's ultimate. 35~50% BONUS Armor/Magic pen.

MPendragon2 votes

% based penetration scales into late game. The entire reason behind getting them mid game, is to be prepared for when the opponents begin to build a resistance towards it. Since is scales linearly no matter how much reduction your opponent gets.

People build flat penetration to increase the damage that they do immediately, and people build scaling penetration to increase the damage that they will do - later on.

Delioth1 votes

Problem in that %pen gives more armor pen without them building any resistances. Look it up- the only champion who doesn't end up with 60 armor (the point at which %pen does exactly the same as youmuu's) is Thresh, but he's a special case because he gets his souls. He'll end up with 60 armor no problem.

So it doesn't even counter building resistances, it counters leveling up.

ImHerVoice1 votes

trundle can make a champ like rammus go into negative armor :p

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