Why doesn't Trundle's R only affect bonus resistances?

LegenDariusGaren·Jul 22, 2016·16 votes·1,749 views

If you cannot use against it anymore, why is it not changed to only steal the target's bonus resistances?

48 Comments

LadyRenlyJul 22, 20165 votes

because then you cant ult adcs

LegenDariusGarenJul 22, 20167 votes

First of all, you should not being ulting them. Second, 9 armor and 12 mr from runes, plus 22 armor and 11 mr from a support with Windspeaker's blessing. That would be 12 armor and 9 mr stolen from an adc in the late game.

TequilaZombieJul 22, 20164 votes

And that's a pretty lame value.

LegenDariusGarenJul 22, 20165 votes

At least it adds counter play since qss does not work against it anymore.

TequilaZombieJul 22, 20167 votes

Being a downright worse choice to use on high priority targets is not counterplay, it's just a bad design.

LegenDariusGarenJul 22, 20163 votes

Just because the enemy Talon is a higher priority target does not mean you should be ulting him instead of someone like Renekton.

NarasimhaJul 22, 20165 votes

It's meant to be that kind of choice. Ulting a squishy means the target becomes much easier to kill, but Trundle receives less stats in return. Ulting a bruiser or tank doesn't impact them as much, they're still tanky, but Trundle becomes much more bulkier himself.

Sire HippingtonJul 22, 20162 votes

Ulting a bruiser or tank doesn't impact them as much, they're still tanky

that'S just not true at all. It's a very, VERY noticeable reduction of their tankiness ontop of getting the defstats. That's like saying voidstaff of (old) LW had little impact vs tanks....

NarasimhaJul 22, 20161 votes

Lets say a squishy has 100 armor and a tank has 300

If you take away 30% of the squishies armor, he only has 70. That's a big difference If you take away 30% of the tank's armor, he has 210. Not as much, but still a lot.

Yes, the reduction can be noticeable, but the effect itself is much less.

Sire HippingtonJul 22, 20162 votes

The effect on tanks is bigger than on squishys.

If we asume 2k health for the squishy and 4k health for the tank. The squishy gets his effective hp reduced from 4k to 3.4k, so he looses 600(15%) effective health(equals 300 true damage vs 100 armor) The Tank gets his effective hp reduced from 16k to 12.4, so he looses 3600(22.5%) effective hp(equals 900 truedamage vs 300 armor),

So the tank looses a higher % of his effective hp than the squishy, and loosing nearly one quater of your effective hp is quite noticeable, especially as it comes on top of high %hp damage.

AptestJul 23, 20161 votes

yes but sometimes you want that squishy to really die and having that squishy's damage not available to his team anymore is worth trading in your ult.

NineTailedMysticJul 23, 20161 votes

Every point of resistance is 1% of their effective HP. Ulting that squishy for 30 Armor just reduced his effective HP vs physical damage by 30%, but ulting that tank just took 90% effective HP against physical damage off him.

Shrek LuigiJul 22, 20162 votes

That's bull.

Hyrum GraffJul 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

At least it adds counter play since qss does not work against it anymore.

Counterplay means there's something you can do in response to it. You're right that the ability doesn't have much counterplay: your only options are to stay out of range so he can't cast R on you or wait to fight until the duration is over.

Making the ability steal only bonus resists doesn't change your options against it. It's a straight-up nerf, not an increase in counterplay.

If you think Trundle is too strong right now, and in particular you think he's too strong against carries because he should be an anti-tank champion, then nerfing his low-counterplay ult in this way might be the right way to nerf him. That's basically what you're saying here:

{quoted}

Trundle already deals 35% of the target's maximum health as magic damage. You can use that offensively against anyone and it deals a crap ton of damage. [Garen deals 40% of the target's missing hp (and it deals a lot of damage), while Trundle deals 35% of their max hp.] However, the enemy champion lost a major counter play ability when qss was nerfed. That is why it should become bonus resistances being stolen.

And this is a fine argument. But please don't claim it increases counterplay, because it doesn't.

LegenDariusGarenJul 22, 20164 votes

If you decrease a low counter play ability then you are by definition increasing the counter play.

The Yetii RiderJul 22, 20162 votes

Leona Braum TahmKench Annie Zyra Blitzcrank Thresh Zilean

Nearly half the supports in the game can't even use Windspeaker's. (And I'm not counting the ones who will likely still take Bond of Stone like Taric and Alistar). Windspeaker's is not a given in a game by far.

And yes, you absolutely should be able to ult anyone. Just like you can ult anyone with Mordekaiser, or Lux. Or Xin Zhao, or Lee Sin, or literally every other champion in the game who has an offensive ultimate.

LegenDariusGarenJul 22, 20161 votes

He said that you cannot ult an adc. I responded that of course you can because they can have/get bonus resistances from runes, items, supports etc.

I am discussing the stats being stolen. Trundle already deals 35% of the target's maximum health as magic damage. You can use that offensively against anyone and it deals a crap ton of damage. [Garen deals 40% of the target's missing hp (and it deals a lot of damage), while Trundle deals 35% of their max hp.] However, the enemy champion lost a major counter play ability when qss was nerfed. That is why it should become bonus resistances being stolen.

The Yetii RiderJul 22, 20162 votes

It only deals 35% of their max health of Trundle stays in leash range for the full duration. Against marksmen, that requires a LOT of armor. So the bases should be included.

Hyrum GraffJul 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

First of all, you should not being ulting them. Second, 9 armor and 12 mr from runes, plus 22 armor and 11 mr from a support with Windspeaker's blessing. That would be 12 armor and 9 mr stolen from an adc in the late game.

If it's so little, why does it matter to you?

LegenDariusGarenJul 22, 20162 votes

I am saying that it should be little against a target that has low bonus resistances. If it was changed to say 40% of the target's bonus resistances, then he would be getting the 12 armor/9 mr from an adc. Currently, he steals 35+ armor from them.

SkiasJul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

because then you cant ult adcs

It's not for Ulting ADCs.

LadyRenlyJul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's not for Ulting ADCs.

sure, but if its a situation where it's "ult or die", may as well but in this case using it would literally even be more useless than it already is.

SkiasJul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

sure, but if its a situation where it's "ult or die", may as well but in this case using it would literally even be more useless than it already is.

If all there is to ult is the adc, then yes it should be ineffective.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If all there is to ult is the adc, then yes it should be ineffective.

so.. punish trundle for fighting adcs? even harder?

oh look trundle is splitpushing, just send up the adc :P

SkiasJul 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

so.. punish trundle for fighting adcs? even harder?

oh look trundle is splitpushing, just send up the adc :P

Yes? His 1 counter is he's melee and can be shredded. Or you want the simple as shit steroid monster to be good against everyone with no drawbacks?

AlutrosityJul 22, 20165 votes

The amount of armor and magic resist he would receive from an ad carry is extremely negligible unless it's Graves, the ADC has built guardian angel, and even then it's not really worth ulting them over the tank. If you're looking for magic resist, the only time you want to use it on a mage is against someone like Swain who will typically have abyssal scepter due to his close ranged in-your-face combat-style and sometimes spirit visage for fending off magic damage while increasing his own healing, Galio as it would actually reduce his ability power as well due to his passive. Otherwise, I always go for the support if they're a tank like Braum, or Leona, and wait for them to use their defensive buffing spells so I can get most of my ult.

LegenDariusGarenJul 22, 20165 votes

Currently, the average adc lategame has 79.4 armor, plus 9 from runes make it 88.4. He should not be stealing 35+ armor from them or any other champ that builds glass cannon. By changing it to bonus resistances and maybe even upping the value stolen, it will allow for more counter play since qss does not work against it anymore.

Shrek LuigiJul 22, 20164 votes

The cooldown on it was pretty much doubled a few patches ago. I'd be pissed if they just kept gutting his ult over and over.

LegenDariusGarenJul 22, 20162 votes

This happened on patch 6.1: Cooldown increased to 110 / 90 / 70 from 80 / 70 / 60. They evened out the playing field among almost all top laners in regards to their R cool down. It only adds counter play and punishes Trundle if he ults the wrong target.

CaptnJakSparrowJul 22, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shrek Luigi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GQqig8ul,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-07-22T18:19:01.287+0000)

The cooldown on it was pretty much doubled a few patches ago. I'd be pissed if they just kept gutting his ult over and over.

Why? lol

He's the only champion whose literal game play strategy is run at people and press Q that can actually climb to challenger in a realistic pace with very little gameplay knowledge, and also be usable in 3 positions.

DeathBot666Jul 22, 20161 votes

MasterYi

(Or is he considered meta in high elo?)

CaptnJakSparrowJul 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

(Or is he considered meta in high elo?)

Trundle is recommended to climb to challenger by basically every high elo coach out there, because he offers everything you could possibly need with very simplistic gameplay. There isn't a single champion out there as simple and effective as Trundle is, which is why he's really really easy to get diamond + with.

Jeddy017Jul 23, 20161 votes

To be fair, his ult will still do it's job......against tanks & bruisers. It will only gut his ult when using it against squishies.

ReikkenJul 22, 20162 votes

to even out his power, making him more generally useful and less niche. instead of making it only affect bonus resists but making it stronger against that, giving him more uneven power, super punishing against tanks and useless against everything else.

LegenDariusGarenJul 22, 20162 votes

If the value stolen changed to 40/45/50% of the target's bonus resistances (with each point in R), it would become more balanced. Say a champion has 200 armor. Currently, it will steal 80 flat armor. If it is changed to bonus armor, then if the target has 80 base armor, the value stolen becomes 60. If the target has 300 armor, then the value currently stolen is 120 whereas it would become 110 instead.

This makes Trundle less appealing in the support lane since supports are generally lower in exp, but it also adds more counter play since qss does not work against his R anymore.

Slamurai JackJul 22, 20161 votes

Because he's Trundle so fuck you. Why don't you go create a Zed QQ thread instead of drawing attention to the blatant ridiculousness that is Trundle's ult.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 23, 20161 votes

why does it need to be bonus resistances exactly?

SkiasJul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

why does it need to be bonus resistances exactly?

So it is anti tank like it was designed instead of anti everyone.

LatetotheRaceJul 23, 20161 votes

Could we just give him another ult? lol

killd0zerJul 23, 20161 votes

I read your post like 3 times trying to figure out how you reach the conclusion that because QSS doesn't work on it it MUST be changed to only affect bonus resistances.

My conclusion is that english isn't your first language.

LegenDariusGarenJul 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I read your post like 3 times trying to figure out how you reach the conclusion that because QSS doesn't work on it it MUST be changed to only affect bonus resistances.

My conclusion is that english isn't your first language.

First off, I can speak 5 different languages fluently and I have a Master's from a prestigious university in California. I also teach English as one of my subjects.

When I play a squishy champion against Trundle, I used to buy qss to return the 35+ armor being stolen from me. That is why I proposed it to being changed to bonus resistances being stolen.

killd0zerAug 25, 20161 votes

I just found this message in my inbox.

Cringed hard as shit. College is gonna be rough kid.

SouL1essJul 23, 20161 votes

Because it's not fair design?

same reason as why rubick doesn't steal upgraded spells if his target has aghs but rubick doesnt. Trundle R stealing percentage resistances is not fair design.

MLDzXnRRRJul 23, 20161 votes

Trundle was port of Doombringer from DOTA. They nerfed him long time ago with the rework. After the meta changes, Trundle will become again trash tier...

Meep ManJul 23, 20161 votes

If we are gonna nerf him, why not just nerf the amount stolen instead of nerfing it to bottom tier?

RogueWillJul 23, 20161 votes

So he can duel early game.... Trundle is an early game champion most of the times so he needs it to be able to duel peole before they get their tank items

BloodyTomponJul 23, 20161 votes

There are edge cases where that steals no resistances. By having it deal against total resistance the fail case is higher and the acceptable high case is lower. If it were changed to bonus, it would need to be buffed against bonus and make him closer to a hard counter: Not an desirable trait.