Making Camille less unhealthy to play against (primarily her R)

WTBeGirl100EUhr··3 votes·700 views

Camille was pretty busted on release. Her kit is inherently pretty unhealthy, especially when it comes to her ability to lock down and kill AD champions (AP can deny her ultimate with Zhonyas, putting it onto full cooldown).

That said, after the changes made to her she has basically been completely trash, sitting at or below 45% winrate whilst still being unhealthy and frustrating to play against. The loss of the minion heal hurt her laning phase a LOT (which was intentional and a good change).

Regardless of how unhealthy her kit is to play against, I feel like they should be changing her to be more healthy, and returning power to her kit, rather than leaving her in the gutter.

The change I would make, personally, is thus: **Hextech Ultimatum is now considered a crowd control effect, and is removed by Cleanse, QSS and Mikael's Crucible. The on-hit damage granted to Camille by her ultimate, instead of being a debuff on the target, now empowers Camille and can be applied to a target not affected by Hextech Ultimatum. This buff is granted even if the target goes untargetable (Zhonyas, Fizz R, Xayah R). Additionally, Hextech Ultimatum no longer briefly silences. **

This: >Allows champions a way out from Camille's ultimate, in the same manner as QSS removes an Ashe or Lissandra ultimate. >Makes it feel less bad if Camille's ultimate is denied by QSS or untargetability. >What purpose did the interrupt/silence have other than very specific ability to crap on MF/Lucian? Stripping away unnecessary power.

Finally, please allow Camille to heal off of jungle camps. Camille jungle is not currently even remotely viable, at less than a 40% winrate, and was never as strong as its top-lane counterpart. Yes, it re-opens the play where you walk out of lane and W Scuttlecrab, Gromp or Krugs but frankly that's really not as powerful of a mechanic as you might imagine given how she has to leave lane to do it. It's a fun role to play her in, and just making that change would re-open that play style.

As for changes I've seen suggested that I do not believe would be a good direction for Camille. I've seen people advocate for the removal of the ability to stun multiple people. This hurts Camille's laning phase more than people currently imagine, as stunning the minions when using your E in trades (which makes you very vulnerable) or all-ins makes more of a difference than you are probably giving it credit for, and having a specific interaction for minions is very awkward. I do not believe that her E is problematic, since the dash is fairly slow, telegraphed, and the stun is very short. You are given some full 2 seconds nearly from when Camille casts her E to do something. It's also a very long cooldown.

I've seen people ask for the slow on her W to be removed. The slow is fairly necessary for her to function outside of the 0.5s stun of her E against anyone with any kind of dash, either by walking up and slowing them, forcing the dash, which she can then follow with her E or using her E to engage and re-engaging with her W (which is generally the worse option since it generally involves you missing your stun and wasting your AS steroid). Her ult does allow her to follow or deny dashes, depending on which dash and at what timing (often some combination thereof), but due to the long CD this isn't reliable.

Finally, people asking for her Q to not convert Trinity Force procs to true damage. This does not address her issues, and is simply a nerf to her already sub-par at best power. I understand that people find Camille frustrating to play against, but nerfing a weak champion is not a valid way to address health concerns.

14 Comments

Joxcab2 votes

no. you just asked to gut the whole point of her kit.

WTBeGirl100EUhr3 votes

Her R is unhealthy. Be it the whole point of her kit or not, it needs to change if she isn't to just be left in the gutter.

Joxcab3 votes

But it's not unhealthy. There is clear counterplay both before and during it.

WTBeGirl100EUhr2 votes

The counterplay after she uses it is pretty much kill her or die.

And if not her ult, what is it about her kit that makes people find her so frustrating to play against? Other than her ult, what does she do that she's not outclassed by other divers?

Her ult uses too much of her power budget, lacks counterplay and is the reason she is weak right now.

Joxcab2 votes

It doesn't matter if people get frustrated. No one cares.

You can 1, go untargetable, 2, stick with your team who will help you because the knockback only is extremely small and brief, 3, run from her while within said cage because she's still melee and needs to chase you and W is delayed, 4, flash while she's in the animation to drag the cage when it forms to wherever you want instead of where she wants, 5, build armor because most of her damage is still physical, 6, CC her, 7, knock her out of the cage or force her out, 8, kill her. Also, 9, Exhaust, Locket, and Redemption.

fuffychan1 votes

All youve done is list generic things that apply to everyone.

If someones ult did 100% true damage you would say "just cc him" "locket" etc

Flash out of the cage is counterplay. Flash so the cage moves is just stupid.

Joxcab1 votes

I'm not sure what's wrong with stuff that applies to everyone if it includes Camille too. Do you even think before you write that shit?

But there is nothing even close to as unhealthy as your supposed 100% true damage ult in the game.

No, it isn't. That limits it to only champions with blink or once every 5 minutes which either in the former case, makes it trash, or in the latter case, isn't proper balancing anyways.

No, it isn't when you can drag Camille into your whole team and get her killed in a second flat.

WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votes

People do care if she's frustrating to play against. She sits at 45% winrate because she was nerfed into the ground for being unhealthy and frustrating to play into. It's the same reason so many other champions have been reworked. Her kit needs to change - in some means or another - in order to allow her to be averagely strong. Giving people options to deal with her ult that aren't "My teammate will save me" or "build items that are terrible for me" allows you to add power back into her kit elsewhere. It could be damage on the W, it could be the CD on the E, it could be the on-hit damage from the ultimate.

Even if her ult IS the entire point of her kit - which I strongly disagree with in the first place - that's not good design either and power should be shifted away from it.

Joxcab1 votes

No, she was nerfed because she was actually too objectively strong. Not because she was frustrating. Not because she was unhealthy. Her numbers were too high. And as usual, Riot over nerfed her.

Other options that aren't the options I listed are unnecessary and just defeat the entire point. W damage is irrelevant, it was used for healing. A buff to jungle doesn't help her still being shit. She's just over nerfed across her entire kit in general.

Except it is perfectly fine design because there's literally 9 or so different ways to counterplay or play around it. Your feelings are irrelevant. Sure, not all 9 applies every single time. But at least around 3-4 will always apply.

WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votes

If the W does more damage it heals for more. If it's purpose is healing more damage is absolutely relevant. The damage on it is also not irrelevant in any way.

You come across as one of those people who likes to post in these threads with no real knowledge of how the champion plays.

Her kit is incredibly difficult to balance because her ult's gameplay is unhealthy and the theoretical counterplay is less available and effective in game than it should be on paper. Camille's ult is usually used for making picks. Camille split pushes. She is not effective in teamfights and avoids them where she can. As such, options 2, 4, and 9 are rarely available. The others are all dependent on your champion's kit. Sure, any champion COULD build armour but asking an ADC to build more than Ninja Tabi because of just 1 champion is absurd. Any time that Camille is strong she is overpowered and any other time she is weak.

Finally, my thread is from the point of view of the Camille player. Camille's pick rate is pretty low. If I was playing against Camille enough to get my jimmies rustled enough to make a thread about her it would probably mean that she wasn't the heap of trash she is now.

Joxcab1 votes

Yes I have no knowledge of Camille as a mastery 7 with about 682,000 mastery points. Yup.

You can increase the healing done without increasing the damage. All you have to do is just make it like "Camille heals for (insert a number over 100)% of the damage done to (champions?)."

Alright lad, whatever you need to tell yourself.

Her W is a utility ability regardless of what you want to complain. It is there for the slow and heal, not a damage focus. It doesn't need more damage.

You can claim her ultimate is unhealthy all you like. Doesn't change the facts. There are multiple ways to counterplay her entire kit including her ultimate and there are always multiple methods available out of the entire list.

You don't 1v1 almost any splitpusher anyways in the game regardless because most of them can kill any one target fairly easily outside of tanks. Your argument is irrelevant.

Guardian Angel has armor. Did you not play since the update?

Champions can be trash and still annoying to trash players. Illaoi is a great example of that. I'm not sure how that's any different from your complaints.

Ralanr1 votes

Or knock her out.

fuffychan2 votes

It has zero counterplay.

Are you dense?

InsaneKiller021 votes

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