Can we get Nerfmaster Sucktown back?

Rebonack·Oct 24, 2017·42 votes·1,923 views

I swear, it feels like the game has been steadily flagging since he stepped back to... wherever Riot moved him to.

We miss you, Nerfmaster.

34 Comments

Critmaster GarenOct 24, 201712 votes

if this game was still balanced by morello, then certain champions would never be touched.

theyd just put all their attention to the currently strongest champions, nerf them a little bit and have them rotate through being top picks.

the champions that have actually problems making themselves viable would be hit into the ground with the nerf hammer once every 3 years when every other champion around them has been nerfed, and they dared to creep back into viability.

i dont agree with the general design direction of the game, and how long it takes them to touch bot lane and nerf their game impact, how theyre still pushing for shorter and more snowbally games.

but the general approach of buffing weak champions and nerfing strong champions is better than the old approach where weak champions would just be forgotton, and not be bothered with for entire seasons.

the old approach to weak champions was "if theyre not a problem, we dont need to deal with them".

Spank the FoxOct 24, 201711 votes

All Morello will do is gut Soraka, Sona, Lulu and Janna again. Remove Redemption and make Ardent heal your opponent instead

Maybe kneecap Gnar and Renekton for good measure.

Nothing else will change

AirKingNeoOct 24, 20176 votes

Nice meme.

In all seriousness, he'd nerf supports because they do need serious nerfs. Also Gnar and Renekton do need nerfs (especially Gnar until he stops auto winning top whenever viable). He'd definitely nerf tanks too and probably a bit of ADCs.

Spank the FoxOct 24, 20172 votes

I can't remember any significant ADC changes under Morello

AirKingNeoOct 24, 20171 votes

Were ADCs needing nerfs at the time?

Spank the FoxOct 25, 20171 votes

Well, according to Boards, being omnipresent means deserving of nerfs.

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20171 votes

nerf all supports for overpowering the support role

Ariel the CruelOct 25, 20171 votes

You can remove them from the game by giving the support role laner-level income. This was demonstrated in pre-season 4.

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20171 votes

What do you mean? Supports would still be overpowered since they're the only ones allowed in the support role. /s

GayFluffyUnicornOct 24, 20173 votes

I wouldnt miss any of those champs you mentioned, kinda sick of the free dia egrill supps. Noone likes 40 base damage buffs on gnar leading to him winning every single fucking matchup on toplane. And renekton should never come back. Don't want another "only toplaners who can survive renekton are viable" meta.

ApocalypsicOct 24, 20179 votes

That would be a literal dream come true.

Remlap1223Oct 25, 20171 votes

So basically restart season 4?

As much as I hate the current state of balance, reverting back to another trifecta focused meta is hella stupid.

ApocalypsicOct 25, 20172 votes

My ideal league of legends balance state was right after they finally balanced cinderhulk in season five, that period right before the jug update where they fucked everything up again.

You could play anything on that patch(s).

ShadòwOct 24, 20171 votes

and that's bad why? ...

RebonackOct 24, 20175 votes

Blanket nerfs to Enchanters, Marksmen itemization, and Tanks are sounding like a pretty good deal right now.

Dextix LTOct 24, 20172 votes

No it does not, especially since the main problems are the adc's. Everything else is a "problem" because of adc's and the meta they are dictating.

RebonackOct 24, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FugLqjvy,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-10-24T16:03:17.385+0000)

No it does not, especially since the main problems are the adc's. Everything else is a "problem" because of adc's and the meta they are dictating.

Current state of the game is the result of:

Overbuffed Crit items
Overbuffed Enchanter items
Overbuffed Tanks
Nerfed lane bullies/kill lanes
Adding too much 'counterplay' to Burst, making it too unreliable for removing priority targets

It isn't simply a case of one champion class being over-tuned.

Dextix LTOct 24, 20172 votes

Okay, then question about supports. Why when supports support other classes from the adc, it is worse than supporting the adc? That alone shows that adcs ARE a problem. Because IF the SUPPORTS were the problem then they would be able to support EVERY class equaly good, but that is not the case.

Yes, other factors have a hand to play at this. But yet again, i have to ask. What is the only class in the game, that has been MANDATORY for at least 6 seasons. What is the only class that can go bot carry where no other class can?

It is the adcs. When i compare LOL to other games it is CLEAR to see that adc's in this game are overtuned and have ALWAYS been overtuned.

RebonackOct 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FugLqjvy,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-24T16:41:12.040+0000)

Okay, then question about supports. Why when supports support other classes from the adc, it is worse than supporting the adc? That alone shows that adcs ARE a problem. Because IF the SUPPORTS were the problem then they would be able to support EVERY class equaly good, but that is not the case.

Are you talking about the effectiveness of who is in a duo-lane or the effectiveness of casting a shield on, say, your team's Tank? Because the answers to those questions are different.

Yes, other factors have a hand to play at this. But yet again, i have to ask. What is the only class in the game, that has been MANDATORY for at least 6 seasons. What is the only class that can go bot carry where no other class can?

It is the adcs. When i compare LOL to other games it is CLEAR to see that adc's in this game are overtuned and have ALWAYS been overtuned.

Ah, okay, I got you now.

Short version: It's the way the map is designed. How minion aggro works, how XP and Gold are divided up, how scaling works, how the primary objectives are taken down, and where objectives are located.

Even when Marksmen are really weak (they aren't right now), they're still necessary. It's like a King in chess. Even though the King is the second weakest piece on the board, it's still an important part of your win-condition.

If the primary objectives were taken down via a channel like they were over in Dominionland (everyone counts as ranged against them, everyone does the same amount of 'damage') then Marksmen would be more situational. If Riot promoted the 1/1/1/J/R lane setup instead of mercilessly crushing it, then there wouldn't be a 2v2 lane (necessarily) and Marksmen would be more situational. If Riot made more melee champions with the tools needed to deal with a 2v2 lane (like Morde, who is pretty amazing and has been for a while now) then Marksmen would be more situational.

Because I can assure you, Enchanters can support other classes just fine. There's a reason why they're targeted bans over in Ascension where they aren't gold and level starved.

Dextix LTOct 24, 20172 votes

Are you talking about the effectiveness of who is in a duo-lane or the effectiveness of casting a shield on, say, your team's Tank? Because the answers to those questions are different.

Not really, in both cases the most effective thing is casting a shield on your adc and having adc bot lane. That is simply how it is.

Ah, okay, I got you now.

Short version: It's the way the map is designed. How minion aggro works, how XP and Gold are divided up, how scaling works, how the primary objectives are taken down, and where objectives are located.

Even when Marksmen are really weak (they aren't right now), they're still necessary. It's like a King in chess. Even though the King is the second weakest piece on the board, it's still an important part of your win-condition.

If the primary objectives were taken down via a channel like they were over in Dominionland (everyone counts as ranged against them, everyone does the same amount of 'damage') then Marksmen would be more situational. If Riot promoted the 1/1/1/J/R lane setup instead of mercilessly crushing it, then there wouldn't be a 2v2 lane (necessarily) and Marksmen would be more situational. If Riot made more melee champions with the tools needed to deal with a 2v2 lane (like Morde, who is pretty amazing and has been for a while now) then Marksmen would be more situational.

Because I can assure you, Enchanters can support other classes just fine. There's a reason why they're targeted bans over in Ascension where they aren't gold and level starved.

Again, a question arises. Why does literally EVERY OTHER MOBA not have this problem? Why can i take a mage/marksman/melle adc/assasin in lanes and still have a proper laning phase. Why in other moba games adcs are not the ONLY class that is allowed in a duo lane?

The only conclussion that i can see, is that marksmen in this game are overpowered and always have been. Again, your turret logic does not hold up, as in Dota those same objectives exist, yet marksmen are not mandatory, while in LOL they are.

There are only 3, i repeat 3 champions that have ever been played bot as carries instead of marksmen.

Yasuo - When he was released, which resulted in a failure, as even a champ that was DESIGNED to be able to lane against mages/marksmen could not lane against them.

Mordekaiser - Who was BROKEN when he was released and the ONLY reason why he worked for a time because Riot had to LITERALLY make him broken for him to have a chance at beating the marksmen due to brute forcing with free exp boosts.

Ziggz - Who only saw play for a month or so because first turret gold was insanely high and he coul cheese turrets and gethis team a MASSIVE gold advantage.

These are he only champs that have ever been taken on bot in place of marksmen, and they were either broken or part of a cheese strategy. In other Mobas, that is not the case, marksm en are not dominating like this.

This means that marksmen in LOL are simply broken.

Also you misunderstand my argument about enchangers. YES, enchanters can support other classes, but supporting an adc will ALWAYS lead to better results overall, meaning that enchanters support marksmen the best, instead of being able to support the entire team properly. This should not be the case. An ehcnater supporting a mage should yeld simmilar results as if he was supporting an adc, but that is not the case.

Adc's are not in a good spot, they need to either be nerfed across the board or COMPLETELY changed.

RebonackOct 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FugLqjvy,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-24T22:33:54.151+0000)

Again, a question arises. Why does literally EVERY OTHER MOBA not have this problem? Why can i take a mage/marksman/melle adc/assasin in lanes and still have a proper laning phase. Why in other moba games adcs are not the ONLY class that is allowed in a duo lane?

I answered that question. It has to do with how the map is designed, how resources are divided up, how things scale, and how NPC aggro works. Champion abilities factor into it, too. Over in DotA towers don't target you if you blast someone under them with a spell, only basic attacks. And creeps are out for you blood if you so much as click on someone to attack them. AND many melee heroes have tools to allow them to farm a lane against ranged opponent(s) without getting absolutely shat on, including a Doran's Shield on steroids that's practically useless on ranged heroes.

In short, melee heroes in DotA (can't really speak to HotS, haven't played it) have both systemic tools and kit tools to allow them to function against a ranged carry and their support.

The only conclussion that i can see, is that marksmen in this game are overpowered and always have been. Again, your turret logic does not hold up, as in Dota those same objectives exist, yet marksmen are not mandatory, while in LOL they are.

Towers in DotA drop even faster than the ones in League while dealing about half as much DPS, relatively speaking. They simply aren't a threat (at all). As a result, having someone dedicated to burning them down from range isn't as important. Also keep in mind, because of the way primary abilities work, EVERYONE will have pretty high AD for whomping on towers.

Dextix LTOct 25, 20171 votes

Towers in DotA drop even faster than the ones in League while dealing about half as much DPS, relatively speaking. They simply aren't a threat (at all). As a result, having someone dedicated to burning them down from range isn't as important. Also keep in mind, because of the way primary abilities work, EVERYONE will have pretty high AD for whomping on towers.

No, they do not. Towers in LOL drop faster than in DOTA. A LOT faster. And they are a threat until lategame. Again, i know how DOTA is balanced, i am not saying that LOL should go the same way, but they have to do SOMETHING because they simply are not tackling the problem.

I answered that question. It has to do with how the map is designed, how resources are divided up, how things scale, and how NPC aggro works. Champion abilities factor into it, too. Over in DotA towers don't target you if you blast someone under them with a spell, only basic attacks. And creeps are out for you blood if you so much as click on someone to attack them. AND many melee heroes have tools to allow them to farm a lane against ranged opponent(s) without getting absolutely shat on, including a Doran's Shield on steroids that's practically useless on ranged heroes.

In short, melee heroes in DotA (can't really speak to HotS, haven't played it) have both systemic tools and kit tools to allow them to function against a ranged carry and their support.

Again, you are not disproving my point, at all. Why can't RIOT do anything in at least 6 seasons to change the role? I know how DOTA is balanced, you do not need to tell me that. But that is not my point. My point is why RIOT with this time, to THIS DAY still cannot balance THEIR classes properly.

That is in essence my point. Riot to this day cant do what other games have already done. This means that they simply refuse to do anything or are incompetent. Make changes, make more balancing levers, experiment. Yet instead of that adc's are not touched as a class, scratch that, the ONLY time adc's were touched as a class they were made BROKEN!

Ariel the CruelOct 25, 20171 votes

Re-posting this; appears relevant.

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqQee7Nz,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-09-13T21:11:47.653+0000)

Personally, I agree that ADC's present an issue. But they're ultimately a symptom of larger problems.

range > melee. Riot doesn't do much to mitigate this at a macro level; and often band-aids melees to mitigate at a micro level.

AA damage > spell damage. Again, at a macro level and in a vacuum. AA's have high scaling 1.0 AD (up to 2.5 with crit), the lowest max (and average) cooldown in the game, and are resourceless.

Structures. Excluding Ziggs, there is no way to kill structures with abilities. Very few champions (and sheen) have abilities that can even affect structures.

~~ADC's~~ "Marksman" benefit from all three of these core game mechanics. That's why they will always be necessary. Before we even begin looking at individual stats and kits, ADC's have macro-level advantage.

And before "that guy" posts, supports aren't a core problem. Their state (role, class, champion, and itemization) are also symptoms of their own problems. But, for the most part, their influence applies equally to every one (regardless of game state). That's why they tend to vanish when ever the meta even remotely allows it.

Dextix LTOct 25, 20171 votes

I agree, it all comes down to how the game operates, unless some big changes are done to some core game systems, adc's are going to be dominating. That is why i am annoyed when they rework jungle every goddamn season and target game mechanics that are not a problem instead of focusing on the real problems.

I only disagree that support influence applies equally to everyone, support disproportionally affet adc's better than any other class they might support, due to itemization, skills and the prevalence and strenght of adc's.

GayFluffyUnicornOct 25, 20171 votes

Go to reddit, read what a certain riot designer thinks: i quote: "yes their role (support) is to multiply the adc. That is what riot designers think how this game works or should work. No wonder it is this way and it won't change as long as these guys are in charge. He also complains about sightstone not being exciting enough to buy

Dextix LTOct 25, 20171 votes

You can't be fucking serious..... Could you link it? I want to see such bullshit for myself.

Not exciting enough to buy, what game does he think he is fucking designing?

RebonackOct 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Go to reddit, read what a certain riot designer thinks: i quote: "yes their role (support) is to multiply the adc. That is what riot designers think how this game works or should work. No wonder it is this way and it won't change as long as these guys are in charge. He also complains about sightstone not being exciting enough to buy

Huh.

Well. That would explain the busted Support items they keep creating, wouldn't it?

Ariel the CruelOct 25, 20171 votes

I guess I'll re-post this as well.

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqQee7Nz,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2017-09-14T07:07:11.313+0000)

Support (role) aids the team just as much as any individual. Their job is to not be awesome so everyone else can soak up as much glory as possible. It's a result of insufficient income streams. That's why they buy all the team utility items and get no CS. The only reason they go with ADC is for income optimization. ADC's are the least level dependent, so they get the support. ADC's are more than capable of surviving in a solo lane though.

Support itemization is the same way. Effect doesn't discriminate. Best on ADC's (as opposed to other squishies) because they have the game's highest damage out-put (more healing for the builder). Shields everyone equally based on the user's bonus health. The CC removal benefit everyone equally. Except maybe Olaf. Doesn't get built. Heals everyone equally. Doesn't interact with allies. "Allied basic attack burns" don't stack; the duration refreshes. So attacking more than once every 2 seconds accomplishes nothing. Meaning that Raw AD is the only important factor on that part; crit and AS don't help (if I interpret it correctly; Riot is a tad ambiguous on this one). Like Zeke's, the healing doesn't stack; so high AS doesn't matter. This is the only item that does disproportionately favor ADC though, because the bonus AS benefits their raw AD and Crit. Except for Yasuo and Trynd, no one else really builds crit. MS bonus doesn't discriminate. Shield active benefit everyone equally. Doesn't interact with allies. (I'm probably missing something.)

Support champions also have mostly agnostic kits. (Can even us abilities on the front and back line simultaneously!) (Q favors ranged champions for ease of application) (E favors ranged champions for ease of application) (Biased towards Xayah by design) Passive favors ranged champions for ease of stacking. But allies don't directly benefit from anything in his kit. Shield favors ADC's because it benefit their high AS and crit. W AS bonus favors ADC's because it benefits their AD and crit. Interestingly, release Lulu also gave out bonus AP. But the AS and AP buffs were lost in the war against top lane Lulu. The AS came back as an effort to incentivize her to go back there.

The only reason supports get lumped into the mix is because people fail to distinguish between "core" and "meta" problems. Meta dictates that supports build items to benefit allies. Meta dictates that supports lane with ADC. Meta dictates that ADC's build glass cannon. Meta dictates that supports use their items/abilities so their lane partner can go glass cannon.

When you look at things in a vacuum, there's very little supporting that disproportionately favors ADC's over anyone else.

Dextix LTOct 25, 20171 votes

Ah, you misunderstand me. The argument i make is not that items are SPECIFICALLY geared to adc's (Although, you have to admit, that there are items/champions like that).

Due to the strenght of adc's, supporting one will be better than supporting any class.

You are right in the statement that the numbers that the support applies are equal to everyone, the value and the effect of the buff however, is not equal. Adc's disproportionally benefit and gain more value from buffs than any other class.

You CAN support a mage, you CAN support a skirmisher, you CAN support a bruiser, but in the end, support either of those classes will not be as srong as simply supporting an adc. You can't look at thing in a vacuum, because these games do not happen in a vaccum, the meta also does not apply in the vacuum.

While the numbers are equal, the value gained is disproportional on adc's, supporting them gains the most value, thus making supports favour the adc's over any other class.

It is very simple, if adc's were not disproportionately favoured by supporting. Me supporting a mage/skirmisher/bruiser should have the same value and effect, but we all know that is not true.

Ariel the CruelOct 25, 20171 votes

I agree that supporting ADC's is more valuable. But, as you said, it's because the ADC themselves is more valuable. Not because ADC's are disproportionately favored (With the noted exemptions).

Supports (generically) affect ADC's just as much as the mage and the tank. But as the greatest force on the team, ADC's make better use of that influence.

Dope SoloOct 24, 20171 votes

I lold

Friendly RamOct 24, 20171 votes

been awhile. Who is nerfmaster sucktown?

RebonackOct 24, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Friendly Ram,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FugLqjvy,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-10-24T16:43:08.730+0000)

been awhile. Who is nerfmaster sucktown?

It was a nickname Morello picked up. He used to be in charge of champ balance before Meddler took over.