Admit it. The new season is just gonna pawn tank champions all over again, especially putting 
in the dirt all over again. At least let the Cinderhulk have its original stats back, like its 25% bonus health & the damage it used to dealt.
Ignis024 votesI think we should just see how these changes play out a bit. If it goes how we predicted and tanks are shit then I saw buff cinder again and revert sion and sej nerfs. Trundle needs some special work tbh
Silents4298 votesTrundle is fine?
Confron7a7ion73 votesHes really under appreciated. Some of the new tank items really helped him out and hes was already an excellent split pusher/ tower melter.
Yuumi or Lose3 votesTrust me.
Trundle is perfect.
Malicious Fury2 votesTrundle is great atm. Not weak. Not op. :)
KaisadiIIa1 votesRIOT don't usually revert nerfs. They just buff other things.
FistOfSharkiesha8 votesThey need to make up their mind if they want to nerf an item or a champion. They ruined Sejuani and Sion because they were among the best with cinderhulk, and then they nerfed cinderhulk and left them nerfed. They really should just revert the cinderhulk nerf and Sion and Sejuani would be useful again.
WhiteGuyWannaBe1 votesThey really didn't ruin sej, just took from stupidly OP to a little UP. The addition of titanic hydra and the other new tanky item's also helped her as she already scales off HP. I don't play sion so I can't really comment there.
WickedCrow1 votesSion, who is supposed to be a gigantic meat shield, wants every little scrap of HP and survivability he can get, so the Cinderhulk nerf hurt him a lot. Unlike Sej who has more instantaneous and reliable damage wasn't hurt as hard, though missing some of that %hp damage on her w kinda sucks, while Sion suffers more since his Q can be easily interrupted and his shield can be popped easily, negating a huge portion of damage. Nautilus also got hit very hard, ever since the beginning of season 5 it's been a downhill slope for him as a jungler, and with his shield getting less health from personal and cinderhulk nerfs.
Manwalrus4 votesRiot revert a nerf? Good one. Remember this from last preseason?
That said, we're not quite sure how Rammus will be affected in the preseason. If the Armordillo's eating a healthy portion of struggle salad in 2015, we'll double back to make sure he's staying healthy
KingWanahakalugi3 votesArmor items are going to be receiving a nerf, due to the fact that Last whisper is also being nerfed.
Erockandroll2 votesArmor items are going to be receiving a nerf, due to the fact that Last whisper is also being nerfed.
not likely, as they are making it a component item. This would only be true if whatever LW builds into, is a nerf compared to the old LW.
Considering that LW is now only going to work on bonus armor, it's definitely a boost to light fighters, and other glass cannons who won't get bursted down by a sustained DPS so easily.
Steelflame2 votesIts a nerf after that as well though, even then. It currently is 35% total armor, it is being changed to 40% bonus. Literally only champ negatively effected by this change for defense on the defending side is Thresh, who has his almost entire armor pool being based on bonus armor due to how his passive sets it. LW items still are at 40 AD, and the two unique passive routes on it still make you have to chose between stopping healing, or stopping health stacking. You don't get both out of it.
Also, now LW items ONLY work on ADCs, as AD casters who frequent mid lane have no use for bonus penetration compared to the total pen from current LW iteration, except in extreme situations where the entire enemy team is building/stacking armor.
And remember, if AD casters are having a worse time dealing with you, compared to now where they just laugh at you building armor at all, it is a one worse to the other being better case.
Kitten of Evil5 votesLiterally only champ negatively effected by this change for defense on the defending side is Thresh, who has his almost entire armor pool being based on bonus armor due to how his passive sets it
There's that Thresh nerf everyone's been clamoring for!
xFrostKnightx1 votesYAY!!!!!! - Everyone who is sick of seeing thresh every game
Get 
hashinshin2 votes40% bonus is a flat increase to it's power. It's absurd to me that nobody is willing to even do basic math. Almost everyone that builds tank items is using armor/level right now, and with a mere Dead man's and Omen you end up at ~250 armor. LW ALREADY shreds more armor than it did before. Now factor in things like Shyvana passive, Jax ult, Malphite W, etc. When you're looking at mega tanks that actually build for example thornmail LW is getting RIDICULOUSLY buffed. They're basically adding an addition 15-20 pen on to it and people are saying "nah it's pretty much worse!"
Not to mention that you can buy a 1300 gold item and sit on it for the majority of the game and have that fuck tanks.
Oh and that one last thing... what was it... oh yeah LW now also adds 15% damage to tanks/bruisers/anythingthatisn'tanADC. Have fun tanks, get fucked.
sreggad1 votesyes your right it's a buff when your fighting a tank... it's a nerf when fighting someone who doesn't build any or very little armor. Before LW could be built on any AD champion and it would increase damage done to all champions. Now it's only going to be effective against teams that have lots of tanks or the ADC whose job it is to sustain damage on tanks.
LankPants3 votesIf looking at just the numbers, 35% flat armour pen to 40% bonus armour pen it's weaker VS everyone not named Thresh.
The numbers on pen aren't the problem though, the problem is that Riot decided to stack an extra 15% damage onto ADC VS tanks because fuck tank players right?
sreggad2 voteshow do you get an extra 15% damage?
LankPants2 voteshttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DSpM0CNzaoY/VjKF1f0kN-I/AAAAAAAAzWM/7zWRcaVd1Z4/s1600/lordR.jpg
By your opponent having 500 or more max HP than you.
sreggad1 votesthat's not LW. That's a new item. We were talking about LW.
wanting to talk about that item being broken or not is completely separate from LW. Also you have to choose between dealing more damage or stopping healing.
LankPants2 votesIt builds from LW.
It fills the exact same role that current LW does.
Here's LW on the PBE
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eVdVc88andA/VjKp4JyAjHI/AAAAAAAAzdk/DIOBpswydQ8/s1600/lastwhisper.jpg
Note that they have the same unique passive, just with LW's being a little weaker.
Also you have to choose between dealing more damage or stopping healing.
That's not a choice. If you're against Mundo, Swain or Vlad you buy it. If you're against anyone else you buy increased damage.
sreggad2 votesthe increased damage is part of the upgrade of LW the other one is a grevious wounds passive. Yes they both have the new armor pene passive. No shit sherlock.
the comment I responded to was talking about how the new passive is buff not a nerf becasue "fuck tanks" So my comment was saying yes LW is a buff against tanks when they build enough armor but it's a nerf for everyone else. My comments had nothing to do with the upgrades till you decided to bring it up.
Now on the note of "That's not a choice. If you're against Mundo, Swain or Vlad you buy it. If you're against anyone else You buy increased damage." This is not only a stupid statement it's also incorrect. While yes those champions will warrant you to build it without second guessing it. it's also a good item to build if your against a life steal heavy champion like WW or Aatrox. Or if they have a sorakka or a sona. you would want to build it against any champion or group of champions that have good sustain. It's also not a bad item to fight against an ADC with lifesteal. especially if you don't have an assaassin or burst mage to take care of them and you are gonna have to kill them through their sustain. League is black and white. There is a lot of gray areas.
LankPants1 votesSo my comment was saying yes LW is a buff against tanks when they build enough armor but it's a nerf for everyone else.
That number is huge. Assuming you're fighting a tank with 80 base armour the new LW doesn't break even until they have more than 550 bonus armour. That doesn't happen.
Now on the note of "That's not a choice. If you're against Mundo, Swain or Vlad you buy it. If you're against anyone else You buy increased damage." This is not only a stupid statement it's also incorrect. While yes those champions will warrant you to build it without second guessing it. it's also a good item to build if your against a life steal heavy champion like WW or Aatrox. Or if they have a sorakka or a sona. you would want to build it against any champion or group of champions that have good sustain. It's also not a bad item to fight against an ADC with lifesteal. especially if you don't have an assaassin or burst mage to take care of them and you are gonna have to kill them through their sustain. League is black and white. There is a lot of gray areas.
You're drastically overestimating Grievous Wounds.
It's not that strong, rememberer Executioners Calling? No-one ever built that hunk of crap, because IE's damage was so much better. A 15% boost to DPS is huge actually close to IE's passive which is around 25%, what makes you honestly think that in most scenarios Grievous Wounds would be better?
sreggad1 votesexecutioner's calling was a shitty item. Greavious wounds is a great effect. but not good enough to warrant an item slot for only 25 AD and 20% crit. Now choosing between greavious wounds and 15% extra damage it willl make choices.
LankPants1 votesI think Grievous wounds is worth 3-4% damage unless you're against a super heal heavy team.
It's just not going to be as good in the majority of situations, a 15% damage boost is going to allow you to make tanks completely irrelevant, which is honestly something ADCs don't need more help with.
sreggad1 votesaside from the fact that your just pulling numbers out your ass. I'm not saying that most games the damage won't be chosen. However different team comps and different champions the other one will be better than the 15% damage. If your playing against a team that has a bunch damage dealers who don't build health your better off getting grevious due to it halfs the life steal also. if yoru against a vlad and swain on a team your gonna go gravious. if it's a Yi and tryn on the team your gonna go with grevious. It's not going to be "omg this item is broken" but it's giving a good alternative to deal with heavy sustain teams and champions. and not just mundo swain and vlad.
FantasySniper2 votesUsing some simple math, you should be able to tell that the new LWs are way worse until serious amounts of armor, making them pretty much worthless late game.
Edit: Excuse me while I fix the graph, because I made it in like 10 minutes in the middle of the night...
Brohan462 votesl2math bro
how are you going to comment on people not doing basic math when you, yourself didn't do the math in question?
lets take a level 18 sion with 74 base armor. add ninja tabi, thornmail, and dmp (25+100+50) armor for a total of 175 bonus armor. 175*0.6=105+74=179 total armor against attacks. you ignore 70 of his armor.
now, current lw is 35% total armor, so 175+74=249*0.65=161.85 total armor. so you shred 88 armor. thats 18 more armor ignored with the current lw than the new lw and that is with a substantial amount of bonus armor...
T RexHasTinyArms1 votesThe amount of mastery buffs for ADC in the new offense tree looks stupid strong though so it should be an interesting new power spike for adc. If the masteries stay the same that is.
RocketRelm1 votesArmor items are going to be receiving a nerf, due to the fact that Last whisper is also being nerfed.
Didn't they ALREADY do that? Nerf armor items across the board? Randuins used to give 70 Armor, like the fact that AD is harder to get across the board from what I see on these items is what I'm calling "equalization" with that.
Commando Yi3 votesdon't think trundle ever climbed out of the dirt for them to put him back into it
junglerboy163 votesThen you see that they finally went through with it and nerfed LW to only penetrate bonus armor.
That and the other tank items are getting brought back up instead (although a couple are just getting cost increases from what I've seen).
hashinshin3 votes40% bonus armor is better than 35% total armor. Also, new LW adds 15% damage to targets with more health.
The amount of people not actually doing simple basic math are why I recommend anyone who enjoys LoL to take a month long break. Let Riot suck off ADCs for a month or so, then they'll do sweeping nerfs and we'll hopefully be back to balance land,
LankPants8 votes40% bonus armor is better than 35% total armor.
It's not. If you have 75 base armour and 200 bonus armour, which is a large number but the larger the armour the more in favour of bonus pen this goes.
With 35% ArP 275*0.65=178.75
With 40% bArP 200*0.6+75=195
Base armour pen is better until insane amounts of bonus armour.
Also, new LW adds 15% damage to targets with more health.
This is a big worry, it more than offsets the difference in armour. There's also a mastery which gives 7% (base) armour pen, which also offsets the difference between the two until around 20000 armour, which isn't really relevant.
ProfDrDeath1 votesThis is a big worry, it more than offsets the difference in armour. There's also a mastery which gives 7% (base) armour pen, which also offsets the difference between the two until around 20000 armour, which isn't really relevant.
The current mastery gives 6% already, so there won't be a major difference in that regard.
The buff to targets with more health serves to move ADCs away from bursting tanks and squishies alike with their build paths. Remember, it comes with a host of other changes - ADCs won't have as many AD in the late game any more, for example (-5 from BT, -15 from IE, -5 from Triforce, -5 from Scimitar). Nor as much AS, for that matter.
Mustachoso2 votesLet the tanks fall a bit and marksman enjoy for awhile,some of them were waiting for this for ages..
Voluug136 votesThe game is literally centered around ADC. Tanks were powerful for... 8 patches or so?
bauspanda21 votesThe game hasn't been truly influenced greatly by the adc since season 2 (barring morde because hes weird) except for kalista. Asside from her they are all very close to each other except with differing ults... and some of their ults suck horribly (draven, Lucian)
Voluug133 votesDid you see the matches of THIS year? ADCs have been the centerpiece of every single match. People forget that because they have been stale (but still powerful) for entire seasons. Comps literally centered in ADCs. Protect the Jinx, for example.
Melledoneus2 votesFFS, 
is starting to become more viable than tank Shen. COME ON!!!
Riot, buff tanks back, it's all I got going for me.
kirbyzama1 votesI just want Sejuani to be in a balanced state honestly. She is always an unpopular champ, often out classed by amumu, and when she was finally in a spot I felt where she was pretty good, cinderhulk came out and she became oppressively powerful. And now she is nerfed back into that wierd spot where she isn't bad but she really has no reason to be picked aside from wanting to play sej.
Naut has more cc and amumu has more damage. I don't know maybe playing her up as an anti kite tank would be cool but she would need more damage to be a threat to a champ thats kiting her.
As for Cinderhulk, I hate that the item started a super toxic meta that got a number of champs I like nerfed. I do think that they should meet half way with the bonus hp and % bonus hp. Like 350hp and 20% bonus hp. Still gives an early advantage and a decent extra chunk of % hp. Or maybe even a little more flat hp since the 5% extra needs 1000 bonus to break even with this suggestion.
Prozzak1 votesJust because ADC's are being updated it doesn't mean they will be more powerful. Wait and see how the changes work out before you start demanding buffs for other roles.
Cosmic Warper1 votesHow is it going to screw tank champions? Last whisper and its upgrades only penetrate bonus armor, so building armor and having high base armor means Marksmen will do less damage to tanks than before. Bonus armor pen doesn't cut off with total armor pen because total armor pen is always better.
Brohan461 votesand then it builds into an item that does 15% more damage to people with higher hp pools... so it ultimately is much, much stronger than it was for reasons other than the armor pen it provides
ihaveapotion1 votesUpward balancing is not a good idea, do not buff cinderhulk, nerf adc items instead.
Lugg1 votesAs things look right now, tanks will not be viable in any role in season 6.
Crownsy1 votesAdmit it. The new season is just gonna pawn tank champions all over again, especially putting
Tanks don't make LC$BIGPLAY$. Tank meta will come back after spring split (because it's more fun), Pro's and advisers will bitch, and we will get our traditional "we made something flashy OP" (hi Juggernauts!) right before Worlds.
It's the cirrrrrrcccclllleeee of liiiiiiiiiffffffeeeee.
TDubH1 votes... You really want the old damage back? The old damage? ... well ok um i hope that never happens i mean tank meta is fun and all but when every single lane takes cinderhulk for the 1K damage tick a second... Thats not very gameplay...
For clarification: There was a bug on pbe that when cinderhulk "turned on" it did 1k damage ticks... every game was 5 smite. Basically, i'm joking.
